Extreme Speed Prop Planes Discuss the need for speed with fast prop planes (Screamin Demon, Diamond Dust, Shrikes or any REAL sound breakin'''' plane)

horns

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Old 10-06-2009, 05:52 PM
  #1  
haikt
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Default horns

i milled these from a ply laminated in 2oz CF. do you think these will work for speed plane?
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Old 10-06-2009, 07:09 PM
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Ed Smith
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Default RE: horns

No, the holes will wear out and enlarge with use. Neither ply nor carbon is wear resistant on the edges.

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Old 10-06-2009, 07:34 PM
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Default RE: horns

Nice precise looking work there!
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Old 10-06-2009, 08:12 PM
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Default RE: horns

Ditto. Those are nice stiff structural members and nicely made, but as Ed said those materials have lousy properties as a bearing surface. If you were to use a nylon clevis in them, the CF laminates would abrade the pins to nothing under vibration and flight loads. I like those Sullivan steel horns with the nylon insert.

Good to ask - that is a critical area in which to experiment with alternate materials.

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Old 10-06-2009, 09:02 PM
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Default RE: horns

Isn't fiberglass sheet used by some modelers? If the holes aren't too close to an edge, I would think a brass sleeve would work
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:55 PM
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Default RE: horns

I beg to differ.
The carbon is very forgiving and have been in use for years on many speedy electrics which would shame most fuel planes on this forum.

Just make sure your laminate is at least .063 thick and the best part if there is some wear or initial play a wick of thin ca will close out any slop and toughen the wear surface.

I say use them and they look great!

On the next batch I might extend the tail a bit longer to gain better glue purchase.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:14 PM
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Default RE: horns

There's a difference in the amount of buzz and chatter between hi-po glow and electric, no?
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:27 PM
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Default RE: horns

Good point CP. Buss and chatter yes, but flight loads and flutter?
As long as the epoxy is quality, I think that is the determining factor how well will hold up. I've never had to replace one - the last thing you want to do to a hollow molded painted in the mold plane.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:36 PM
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Default RE: horns

most of the new jets including BVM models use G10 sheet cut into horn shapes, some add brass or aluminum bushing, or they use carbon sheet in the equivalant thickness, FWIW, a lil oil wouldnt hurt for lube on the pins, also the fastest DS saoring plane suse carbon as well for control horns, because the flutter tore the G10 to pieces....hmm flutter at well over 300mph it aint pretty at all, if yah come across some chip hyde horns they are the cats azz as well they have a micro ballbearing in the horn near zero slop as well
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:42 AM
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Default RE: horns

There is a big difference between a solid commercial laminate like G10/FR4 and a piece of ply with lightweight carbon (it's only 2 ounce stuff) on the outside surface. Structurally I have no doubts at all they are fine for the loads. However, with thin CF on the outside the bearing surface is narrow and under considerable point load at the edges. Bushed I would rate them fine. As is I am very dubious. And if these horns have a wooden core, be careful with the lube so you don't mush up the core and make things worse.

Even solid, there are differences between laminates, as in hand layups or cured under pressure and heat and sometimes partial vacuum as is often done industrially. I've had the opportunity to make some carbon/epoxy and glass/epoxy laminates before on an OEM vacuum laminating press, and with several tons of pressure on a 12"x24" sheet you get some pretty fine material in comparison. With a good tight layup and a cleanly drilled hole (high speed and a sharp cutter) I imagine they stay fine for a long time, perhaps as long as most aircraft do. But I don't think I'd use one without a bushing of some kind to improve the bearing surface anyway. G10 might be tough but glass/epoxy is also a nasty abrasive, essentially a 50/50 blend of sand and epoxy. Watching how fast it destroys HSS cutting tools can make you worry about these things.

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Old 10-07-2009, 09:22 AM
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Default RE: horns

Great planes and Dubro both make horns for about $1 that work for me.
However, yours sure do look good haikt
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:40 AM
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Default RE: horns

For a typical speed plane with concealed elevator horn, a steel wire torque rod that joins the 2 elevator halves is pretty standard with either a flat strip of steel or brass sheet silver soldered to the axle. The DuBro nylon clevises with the hard steel pins seem good enough to bury in a plane for the duration.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:05 PM
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haikt
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Default RE: horns

I was playing with the cnc and wanted to cut them to see how it will look to my surprize they came out very clean.
I am going to use this first ones on a little profile plane and will see how it holds up.
I will cut some from G-10 also and see how it does.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:48 PM
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Default RE: horns

Is there any sparks flying or much wear and tear on the cutting tool? You sure can feel it with a plain steel tool if you hit some CF by accident.
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Old 10-07-2009, 12:52 PM
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Default RE: horns

I cut them just before the glue sets and di not have any sparks. The bit burned up due to spindle speed.
next time I am going to go down to 15000 rpm. The cam sugested using 22K for CF
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:10 PM
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Default RE: horns

You could make some good use of that cloth elsewhere in your 3Der, too. Like a balsa spar that's laminated under a little bit of vacuum.
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Old 10-07-2009, 01:15 PM
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Default RE: horns

here is the little one l
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:03 PM
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Default RE: horns

Man, that looks great!

What size engine for it?

Looks like the wing was a slip fit in the middle?
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Old 10-07-2009, 03:05 PM
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Default RE: horns


ORIGINAL: haikt

I was playing with the cnc and wanted to cut them to see how it will look to my surprize they came out very clean.
I am going to use this first ones on a little profile plane and will see how it holds up.
I will cut some from G-10 also and see how it does.
Please don't let my comments discourage you, I was only being honest about my worries in a high vib environment like an IC speed plane. You've done some nice work there, it's a materials issue to me. If you were to bush these, it could be as simple as short sections of 1/16" ID or appropriate size brass tubing pressed into a nicely drilled hole and lightly swaged on the outsides with a tapered tool. Then you are using the structural properties of the horn materials to full advantage and minimizing the amount of dense material in the part.

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Old 10-07-2009, 07:56 PM
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haikt
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Default RE: horns

MJD and all others I appreciate all your comments and opinions.
I have the same concern for the material. I am going to do some tests and will use one as is and one with inserted brass tube and we can compare the results.

I installed them on the profile plane today. they are in there for good.
CP I am using a saito 50 on a 12.75X3.25 prop.
Also wanted to know everyone’s idea on the servo install on the tail. I wanted to hide them in the fuze so made a laminated plate and bolted the servos on. the plate will be bolted on to the fuze with 2 hard points.
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:10 PM
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Default RE: horns

The install looks neat and functional to me. You are a detail guy, no doubt. Those scratch builts look good too.

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Old 10-09-2009, 03:28 PM
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Default RE: horns

What holds the other side? or is it just glued into a slot in the tail? I would be concerned about side forces eventually loosening up the horn and it popping out.

I have a little electric and horns like that have been great, but with a bigger 3d plane, those things are going to get a lot force applied to them, even with perfect geometry.
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