West .50V1 bench run
12-04-2009, 11:41 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
FWIW the axerossi site sells a 11MM webra carb, it could help the top end on the above engines, all of the 50-90 os heli engines use 10MM throat diameter. 9MM is the size linit in q500 etc, but since we aint racing, no reason not to open them up some more, the neck size is .628
12-05-2009, 08:10 AM
#27
RE: West .50V1 bench run
Interesting...
A while back I got my hands on a .55 heli carb...the early .55 (the one that's case looks like the .50GT, but w/ a larger dia. black head )
My carb has a 9.5mm venturi and a 13mm neck...so it will fit the .50GT and the Speed .61
A while back I got my hands on a .55 heli carb...the early .55 (the one that's case looks like the .50GT, but w/ a larger dia. black head )
My carb has a 9.5mm venturi and a 13mm neck...so it will fit the .50GT and the Speed .61
12-05-2009, 04:40 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
I measured my West .50 -
the carb hole in the case is what I think is somewhat standard - 0.511" aka 13mm
the throat is 0.350" or 8.9mm
I haven't had it apart to measure the crank bore yet.
- MJD
the carb hole in the case is what I think is somewhat standard - 0.511" aka 13mm
the throat is 0.350" or 8.9mm
I haven't had it apart to measure the crank bore yet.
- MJD
12-11-2009, 12:40 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
West 52V1 break-in
Hi Mike ,
today i run for the first time the 52V1 a very reworked Webra 55-p5 Gt with Genesis tuned pipe ...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHNhr1l4y8c[/youtube]
I did a quick first carburetion ... and with 9x6 it got about 18000 rpm with 4% castor 14% syn and 10% nito
What do you think of the result ?
When I have time I will try even a 8x8 and , as directed by the West, i will try to shorten by 1" the manifold for improve the performance...
Hi Mike ,
today i run for the first time the 52V1 a very reworked Webra 55-p5 Gt with Genesis tuned pipe ...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHNhr1l4y8c[/youtube]
I did a quick first carburetion ... and with 9x6 it got about 18000 rpm with 4% castor 14% syn and 10% nito
What do you think of the result ?
When I have time I will try even a 8x8 and , as directed by the West, i will try to shorten by 1" the manifold for improve the performance...
12-11-2009, 02:16 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
A bit of information about the West engines.... or misinformation as it were.
They are not re-worked webra engines.
Alan gets the castings from Webra, so it looks like a webra.
But thats where it ends. All of the internal parts are his design and construction.
They are not re-worked webra engines.
Alan gets the castings from Webra, so it looks like a webra.
But thats where it ends. All of the internal parts are his design and construction.
12-11-2009, 02:38 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
ORIGINAL: bob27s
All of the internal parts are his design and construction.
All of the internal parts are his design and construction.
looking closely the codes parts in technical manual of 52V1 you can understand that the crankshaft and the connecting rod have the same codes to Webra 55-P5 GT ...
more than that I do not know...
12-11-2009, 02:39 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
For a first run, it depends where you had the needle! You need to run it a few times as described next before the tachometer readings are meaningful to compare. From that video you sent the engine is very tight new! Preserve that fit by prewarming it like we talked about before, starting up and warming the engine a few seconds, then quickly get to full throttle and a rich 2 cycle (not breaking to 4c) for 1 minute runs. Then shut down, cool, and repeat. Do this before you start peaking it and worrying about the tach reading. And forget about throttling up and down right now too, just floor it. Later, refine the low speed needle setting if necessary and check transition.
The .50V1 will spin a 9-6 APC at 20k or better on the ground once it's run in a bit and with the header trimmed 5/8" as it was on mine at the time. With the pipe/header at factory length I do not remember how much lower than that. After about 40 flights total it spins an 8.8 x 8.75 clipped to 8" diameter at 20,400 static, with the header trimmed about 1" total now - this in some bench testing about two weeks ago. The last figures are kind of apples and oranges to your data I know, but that's all I have for reference. Darn I could and possibly should have popped the 9-6 reference prop on at the time, but it's horrible outside now and I ain't going back out to run it.
MJD
The .50V1 will spin a 9-6 APC at 20k or better on the ground once it's run in a bit and with the header trimmed 5/8" as it was on mine at the time. With the pipe/header at factory length I do not remember how much lower than that. After about 40 flights total it spins an 8.8 x 8.75 clipped to 8" diameter at 20,400 static, with the header trimmed about 1" total now - this in some bench testing about two weeks ago. The last figures are kind of apples and oranges to your data I know, but that's all I have for reference. Darn I could and possibly should have popped the 9-6 reference prop on at the time, but it's horrible outside now and I ain't going back out to run it.
MJD
12-11-2009, 02:58 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
ORIGINAL: MJD
Preserve that fit by prewarming it like we talked about before,
Preserve that fit by prewarming it like we talked about before,
it had already drunk 1 / 4 gallon at low speed for prewarming
ORIGINAL: MJD
Then shut down, cool, and repeat.
Then shut down, cool, and repeat.
12-11-2009, 03:44 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
Since it already ran slow for that long, I think you may as well skip the procedure I described. That would be for a new engine.
What kind of "usual procedure" is running the engine slow for 1/4 gallon of fuel? It takes but a few seconds for heat to soak through the piston and liner. This is a new one for me.
MJD
What kind of "usual procedure" is running the engine slow for 1/4 gallon of fuel? It takes but a few seconds for heat to soak through the piston and liner. This is a new one for me.
MJD
12-11-2009, 04:03 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
ORIGINAL: MJD
What kind of ''usual procedure'' is running the engine slow for 1/4 gallon of fuel? It takes but a few seconds for heat to soak through the piston and liner. This is a new one for me.
MJD
What kind of ''usual procedure'' is running the engine slow for 1/4 gallon of fuel? It takes but a few seconds for heat to soak through the piston and liner. This is a new one for me.
MJD
ORIGINAL: MJD
I think you may as well skip the procedure I described. That would be for a new engine
I think you may as well skip the procedure I described. That would be for a new engine
I understand your procedure... but I did not understand the mechanical reasons for let it cool before leaving yet ...
12-11-2009, 04:58 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
The idea is to thermal cycle the engine each time for stress relief and whatever other voodoo that causes to the metal parts. If your engine was as tight as it sounded on the video, then several of these run cycles with the cylinder prewarmed may be required before the engine will turn freely enough for an ambient temperature start. This is the same procedure described in depth by ILJ in the OPS threads, and is somewhat of a standard for high-performance tapered bore engines. Many of these engines start comfortably from ambient temperature, lubed nicely of course, even when remarkably tight at TDC. If it is still crazy tight, then obviously it is pounding the crap out of the rod and crankpin and it should still be prewarmed before starting. A few of those cycles will ease it into ideal fit.
So now, after this long slow run and the run you described, how does the engine feel if you try to rotate it through one cycle by hand at room temperature? I say "try" because if it is stubborn as you approach TDC, then stop and back off. And if it is, then you still have a real tight engine. If not, how how easy was it by comparison?
I'm just concerned about the effects of that long slow run. It sounds like a boat or a car engine ritual, I've never heard of that for a tapered bore aero engine - that's the only reason I ask.
MJD
So now, after this long slow run and the run you described, how does the engine feel if you try to rotate it through one cycle by hand at room temperature? I say "try" because if it is stubborn as you approach TDC, then stop and back off. And if it is, then you still have a real tight engine. If not, how how easy was it by comparison?
I'm just concerned about the effects of that long slow run. It sounds like a boat or a car engine ritual, I've never heard of that for a tapered bore aero engine - that's the only reason I ask.
MJD
12-11-2009, 05:42 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
ORIGINAL: MJD
So now, after this long slow run and the run you described, how does the engine feel if you try to rotate it through one cycle by hand at room temperature?
So now, after this long slow run and the run you described, how does the engine feel if you try to rotate it through one cycle by hand at room temperature?
is this a good thing ?
ORIGINAL: MJD
If not, how how easy was it by comparison?
If not, how how easy was it by comparison?
ORIGINAL: MJD
I'm just concerned about the effects of that long slow run. It sounds like a boat or a car engine ritual, I've never heard of that for a tapered bore aero engine - that's the only reason I ask.
I'm just concerned about the effects of that long slow run. It sounds like a boat or a car engine ritual, I've never heard of that for a tapered bore aero engine - that's the only reason I ask.
Marco
12-11-2009, 11:45 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
MJD is bang on!
Marco
You want to get a new ring-less engine to temperature quickly. Never a rich slow four stroke run. You want a light load prop, wide open throttle, rich two stroke or 1000 rpm off peak run for a few tanks.
No doubt you felt the tight "pinch" when you turned the crank over by hand. When the engine is cold, that tightness is encountered at every revolution until it's up to temperature. Excessive time running cold is hard on connecting rods, rod bushings and burnishes the piston down too hard, this can cause the piston to lose the long term normal "pinch" that's required for optimum power.
I know you were trying to baby it and do the right thing but it has the opposite effect on these engines.
Marco
You want to get a new ring-less engine to temperature quickly. Never a rich slow four stroke run. You want a light load prop, wide open throttle, rich two stroke or 1000 rpm off peak run for a few tanks.
No doubt you felt the tight "pinch" when you turned the crank over by hand. When the engine is cold, that tightness is encountered at every revolution until it's up to temperature. Excessive time running cold is hard on connecting rods, rod bushings and burnishes the piston down too hard, this can cause the piston to lose the long term normal "pinch" that's required for optimum power.
I know you were trying to baby it and do the right thing but it has the opposite effect on these engines.
12-12-2009, 12:25 AM
#42
RE: West .50V1 bench run
The idea of breaking in a ABC engine with a very small prop and a very high rpm was shocking when I first heard of it.
I heard this advice from a guy who does nothing but win pylon races and occasionally set national records, so it didn't take too long for this idea to sink in.
I heard this advice from a guy who does nothing but win pylon races and occasionally set national records, so it didn't take too long for this idea to sink in.
12-12-2009, 01:27 AM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
Marco,
I don't know why you ran it for a long time at low throttle. You know your engine was tight because of the squeaking sound. The piston gets more loose when the engine is hot, because the cylinder grows more than the piston. So hot = loose, cold = tight.
I suggested to warm the cylinder with hot water before you try to start it, this makes it easier for the engine. But you should never run it slow at low throttle. Running slow means it runs cold, so the piston stays tight in the cylinder because it never gets hot to get loose. So the piston is always tight and this can hurt the engine.
I hope your engine is still okay. You should try running it like I said before - go to full throttle, 2 cycling but rich (not full rpm), and run it for one minute like this. Then shut it down and let it sit for 15 -20 minutes to get cool again. Then start it again and do the same thing.
MJD
I don't know why you ran it for a long time at low throttle. You know your engine was tight because of the squeaking sound. The piston gets more loose when the engine is hot, because the cylinder grows more than the piston. So hot = loose, cold = tight.
I suggested to warm the cylinder with hot water before you try to start it, this makes it easier for the engine. But you should never run it slow at low throttle. Running slow means it runs cold, so the piston stays tight in the cylinder because it never gets hot to get loose. So the piston is always tight and this can hurt the engine.
I hope your engine is still okay. You should try running it like I said before - go to full throttle, 2 cycling but rich (not full rpm), and run it for one minute like this. Then shut it down and let it sit for 15 -20 minutes to get cool again. Then start it again and do the same thing.
MJD
12-12-2009, 01:43 AM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
Marco,
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6As9jreMlDA]OPS .65 break-in run[/link]
This engine is almost new, but it had some runs like this before.
I check first that it feels loose enough to turn over. It has enough runs I do not need to heat the cylinder now.
The throttle is set to a fast idle, and the main needle is a bit rich. When it starts, I move around back and open the throttle. If it is too rich I pinch the fuel line to keep it running. I keep leaning the needle until it breaks into a 2 cycle run. I only lean it until it stays in a 2 cycle, but keep it rich as possible - you can see the smoke from the pipe. This is a break-in setting for running on the bench. Check the rpm. Shut the engine down from full throttle, then let it cool.
After a few runs like this, you can adjust it to peak rpm for a couple of seconds to check rpm, then back down again to the rich 2 cycle rpm.
The slow running in your video does no good for your engine. It is happiest when it is full throttle and slightly rich. 18,000 rpm with a 9-6 APC is not very fast for that engine or the .50V1.
MJD
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6As9jreMlDA]OPS .65 break-in run[/link]
This engine is almost new, but it had some runs like this before.
I check first that it feels loose enough to turn over. It has enough runs I do not need to heat the cylinder now.
The throttle is set to a fast idle, and the main needle is a bit rich. When it starts, I move around back and open the throttle. If it is too rich I pinch the fuel line to keep it running. I keep leaning the needle until it breaks into a 2 cycle run. I only lean it until it stays in a 2 cycle, but keep it rich as possible - you can see the smoke from the pipe. This is a break-in setting for running on the bench. Check the rpm. Shut the engine down from full throttle, then let it cool.
After a few runs like this, you can adjust it to peak rpm for a couple of seconds to check rpm, then back down again to the rich 2 cycle rpm.
The slow running in your video does no good for your engine. It is happiest when it is full throttle and slightly rich. 18,000 rpm with a 9-6 APC is not very fast for that engine or the .50V1.
MJD
12-12-2009, 12:12 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
ORIGINAL: freakingfast
''pinch'' that's required for optimum power.
''pinch'' that's required for optimum power.
Thanks for your clarification... I am happy because my engine still has the samll "pinch" when it is cold !
12-12-2009, 01:07 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
ORIGINAL: MJD
I hope your engine is still okay. You should try running it like I said before - go to full throttle, 2 cycling but rich (not full rpm), and run it for one minute like this. Then shut it down and let it sit for 15 -20 minutes to get cool again. Then start it again and do the same thing.
MJD
I hope your engine is still okay. You should try running it like I said before - go to full throttle, 2 cycling but rich (not full rpm), and run it for one minute like this. Then shut it down and let it sit for 15 -20 minutes to get cool again. Then start it again and do the same thing.
MJD
Today I have start it and I did as you told me ...
... I also think my engine is ok because when I turn fast by hand when it is cold is soft as a 4-stroke but when i turned slowly it has a small tight and small squeaking sound ...
ORIGINAL: MJD
It is happiest when it is full throttle and slightly rich. 18,000 rpm with a 9-6 APC is not very fast for that engine or the .50V1.
It is happiest when it is full throttle and slightly rich. 18,000 rpm with a 9-6 APC is not very fast for that engine or the .50V1.
18700 rpm with 9x6 require about 1.9 HP , with the cut of the manifold The 52V1 should arrive to 3 HP ...
Marco
12-12-2009, 01:54 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
That 1" cut was for 50v1 8x8. If you plan to run higher pitches, say 8x9,8x10 then it stays at same length, where it is.
I'm not sure if the 1" cut applies to the 52v1? But it could do.
18,700 on 9x6 doesn't sound that high yet.
Target prop of 8x8 would be great though. Maybe the manifold is longer than normal.
I'm not sure if the 1" cut applies to the 52v1? But it could do.
18,700 on 9x6 doesn't sound that high yet.
Target prop of 8x8 would be great though. Maybe the manifold is longer than normal.
12-12-2009, 02:56 PM
#48
RE: West .50V1 bench run
This is the first time I heard that the West was all West internally. It's interesting to think that they saw a way to make money off an already popular engine and even doing so with Webra saying, "OK, here you go, we'll sell you a bunch of cases"
12-12-2009, 04:43 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
ORIGINAL: mk1spitfire
I'm not sure if the 1'' cut applies to the 52v1? But it could do.
I'm not sure if the 1'' cut applies to the 52v1? But it could do.
I read that you use the 9x7 in 50V1 ... How many rpm in static ?
do you have cut manifold ?
Marco
12-12-2009, 05:43 PM
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RE: West .50V1 bench run
If you still have some pinch up top , then that is good.
I don't know the horsepower numbers, but I know the .50 will turn a 9-6 at about 20k. Mine did that with the header trimmed 5/8". I hope your rpm comes up with more running and trimming the header.
MJD
I don't know the horsepower numbers, but I know the .50 will turn a 9-6 at about 20k. Mine did that with the header trimmed 5/8". I hope your rpm comes up with more running and trimming the header.
MJD