H

Just canvassing experiences in achieving the 5.05Kg limit in EP form.
I have just got there by replacing the wing tube and landing gear + other tweaks.
Has anyone else had a similar experience as production weights seem to vary considerably?
Having said that the flying characteristics are excellent.
Adrian

wagen017

building right now so cannot tell you yet. However, it would be interesting if you and others would post the different setups and weights of completed wing left/right; stabilizer halves, wingtube and fuse. In this way we can check your statement of varying weights and we can see what setup would work. Another datapoint might be production date indicated by the quality control stickers.

Good to hear you enjoy flying the plane, I am really looking forward to it!!

Volkert

snowman44

My Feedback: (5)

I just finished my Valiant and I can report that according to my scales I am at 11lb 4 oz and it appears that I am going to get the opportunity to spend at least another 300.00 dollars on the airplane to get it under 11lbs. Carbon Spinner, Carbon Prop, Wing Tube etc. There are only about 10  places to put epoxy on this airplane if you are building it for electric, 5 control horns, a firewall, the rudder servo plate, the U brace and a couple of places on the canopy. This is just a heavy airplane for electric use. Apparently there are people out there who were fortunate enough to spend 2,100 on a Valiant  that would make weight without having to spend the extra money to make that happen.
My question to the first post is this,
Are you carrying up trim on your elevator halves to maintain straight level flight? If you are not can you report where you have the plane balanced.

Thanks.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Snowman,

If your flying anything but Masters or FAI, 11.4 will pass weight.

Tim

snowman44

My Feedback: (5)

Is the weight requirements different for lower classes?

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

I was told by a Contest Board member the proposal to allow the lower classes 4 extra ounces was passed. I believe him.

Tim

snowman44

My Feedback: (5)

Why not for Masters as well? I don't understand.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Once in Masters you're very serious and need to meet the FAI code was the prevailing reasoning. I tend to agree.

snowman44

My Feedback: (5)

I think anyone who spends this kind of money on an airplane to compete in pattern is serious regardless of the class. Whats next, do the kit manufacturers start putting disclosures on their models saying "May or may not make weight for serious masters or FAI competitors"?

snowman44

My Feedback: (5)

By the way, Volkert my airplane was produced in October of 2010

wattsup

My Feedback: (1)

snowman44, I think you might be well served to seek a written clarification directly from the contest board or NSRCA related to the 11 lb weight limit. I have always been under the impression that the 11 lb weight limit pertained to all the AMA classes with a possible exception of the Sportsman class to encourage participation.. Second hand "word of mouth" is just not good enough when you have invested $2100 in a lead sled! You did not say it but I hope you had included the weight of the battteries in the process of arriving at the final all up weight of 11 lbs 4 oz. This could be another case of " who you are" as the determing factor of which fuse/kit you are sent. I hope I'm wrong but, this does happen. OK, I'm ready for all you experts to jump in the fracas! Regards___Everette

wagen017

FAI rule is 5 kg +1%. So you are good at 5049grams. You are now at 4989+113 = 5102 so you are looking to 53 grams to loose (if your scale is right).

The Valiant is a plane designed for YS so it is heavier then those designed for electrics only. Don't think that is something new. I very much like the looks and design filosofy of this plane so I decided to give it a go. Should know by Christmas (by then I think my plane is ready) if this "gamble" works out or not...

You would hope C-ARF would also produce a E-version of Valiant. In that way the plane can be build more comfortably for electrics, with less expensive components or bigger batteries.

Volkert

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Everette,

Why do you assume everything is a giant conspiracy? I've seen guys make weight with electric Valiant's before. Some of whom are in the lower classes. Equipment choice is a major factor, including motor and batteries. The Valiant was designed to be a glow airframe and therefore is built heavier. It can be electrified and make weight, but you have to be careful what you put in it? I am just curious as to what airframe you would recommend? If something isn't absolutely perfect you have something negative to say. I've seen pattern planes built by the best in the world, and even those if you look closely you can find things that might not be absolutely perfect. The best builders and finishers in the world aren't perfect, unfortunately no one is. Just like I've seen top pilots make mistakes before. You seem to assume that producing a 500.00 pattern plane made of space age composites with an incredible finish is easily done, when in reality it is MUCH harder than that. You seem to think that people are just given special gifts. I worked my ***** off to get where I am in the pattern world and I'm certainly not neat the top. I fly quite a bit and ask for help and take advice from many people. I didn't just wake up one day and get handed stuff. Same goes for everyone else. I remember when Andrew was flying Intermediate (sportsman at the time) and placed mid pack at the NATS. He didn't just wake up one day and become one of the best in the world. People work very hard to do this well, and I think most designers and company aren't out to make a quick buck. Unless you are sitting in the factory babysitting every step all the time there will be planes that come out of molds an oz or so heavier, it is just life. Producing identical airplanes isn't exactly easy if you aren't using millions of dollars worth of equipment. Just once I"d like to see you come into a thread and say "wow, thats a nice plane." You bad mouthed the Black Magics when Mike was literally killing himself trying to produce a kit in the US and it literally destroyed his health. No one worked harder to get a competitive affordable airframe in the US and even those would cost 1200 bucks by the time you bought everything and then you still had to build it in and finish it, so if a company produces an ARF for about the same price you can buy a kit for, then you are essentially getting free labor. I would be that Bryan Hebert would be happy to help this guy out in anyway he can to make weight. Bryan goes out of his way to help people in this hobby and unfortunately with a full time job, he can't be the guy laying up every kit.

Arch

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Here is links to the WRITTEN info, Rule proposal and the vote total which shows it passed.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/...teresults.aspx

Rule Proposal number RCA 11-10,

Allowed Classes through advance an additional 115 grams of weight.

Is that good enough for you Everette? From the "Official Site".

Tim

H

Snowman, I have mine trimmed at neutral elevator with .8deg+ wing incidence and cog on the centre of the wing tube. Seems to be happy at this though waiting for some decent weather to continue trimming.

Adrian

byoung466

My Feedback: (16)

There was at least one guy here in tulsa that made weight with it did you talk to Ken?

wagen017

This one is 5005 grams with TP5300: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9216552

TP5300 are 590 grams each.

Snowman: what is your setup? With electrics that is what decides weight of the plane.

Volkert

snowman44

My Feedback: (5)

Wow, It was not my intention when I made post # 3 to get anyone after each other, If you read my post carefully I was describing my personal outcome with the Valiant as the two gentlemen prior to my post had asked for reports on what others outcomes with the plane were.

I want to also make sure to state just in case my comments were taken wrong that I have been knowing Brian Hebert since the mid 80's and have always considered him more than helpful and a first class modeler. (Absolutely no slam against him or the plane) Once again just reporting my personal experience with the Valiant in regards to weight.

I knew going into the project that the airplane was not solely designed for electric use and that it might be close on the weight.

I know that another one of our modelers here in Tulsa made weight and I believe that each of our planes are set up identical in regards to the equipment used, the only differences in the 2 models would be the individual weights of the components that make up the airplane and the amount of epoxy that might have been used here and there.

Once again, a cool carbon spinner and a cool carbon prop and it sounds like I am in business. I know that Chris Moon at F3A Unlimited will be more than willing to get me hooked up with those items.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

It's all good, Most airplanes we build today are very close to max weight. They can almost all be brought under weight by spending several hundred bucks on replacement parts. I was just pointing out the new weight rule that could keep you from having to spend that coin. That prop and spinner will eat up over $200.

Brians design are as good as they get, sometimes the manufacturer can get lazy in the building of these ARF's and get them heavier than the designer meant for them to be.
That has no reflection on the designer at all.

Build them too light they fold up under use, build them to where they'll stand up they won't pass weight. It's a balancing act we all play. Had Brian designed this airplane as an electric only it most suredly would have been lighter right out of the gate. Again a compromise.

I for one applaude the rules commitee for adding weight for the lower classes.

I'm quite sure you're going to fall in love with this airplane.

Tim

wagen017

ditto on the decision of the rules committee. I can only hope the same will be applied in other countries. I think most countries are pragmatic and allow by an unwritten rule the lower classes to fly without making weight, which only makes sense.

Volkert

bjr_93tz

I feel your pain. I spent top dollar on a plane from another manufacture and I wasn't one of the "fortunate" ones either. I ordered all the recomended gear for it and my jaw nearly dropped when I put it on the scales and I still hadn't finished the installation. It's been over 6 months of emails and phone calls to try and resolve things and my only options are to shell out more money or to accept a small financial compensation.

It rips your guts out to read how others have received the same plane and been able to come in underweight with ease and you've spent the same money and now have to spend more, just to make it "legal" and you will never know what the plane should fly like because it will always be a heavy plane.

Brett

snowman44

My Feedback: (5)

Brett,

Sorry to hear about the weight issue with your plane, I don't know if you are building your plane for electric or glow but in my particular case I went electric and although I came out 4 oz. over what I thought was an 11lb limit, the plane still flys really well and with the electric setup I am using I have considerably  more power than i actually need.

The planes I was flying when I left the hobby over five years ago were definately glow and by the time you put a pound of fuel in them  prior to takeoff, you were flying most of the pattern at well over 11lbs, so I am flying lighter from start to finish than I was before with the new planes available to us nowadays.

I don't know about your area but where I am located, the 6 or 7 contest that I use to attend each year never weighed the planes anyway. i think unless you plan on flying at the nationals here in the US the weights are really not an issue. I think on a local level most clubs putting on a pattern event are just happy to have all the participation they can get.

bjr_93tz

Snowman44, I've actually been fairly sucessfull with it at comps even though it's "a bit" over, so it's not stopping me from flying but it does feel it's weight.

I know I have a plane that will stand up to a bit more abuse, and it will make a great practice plane, however I didn't order an overweight, factory second for weekday practice even though that's what turned up.

I can't comment on weight variances of the Comp-ARF Valiant though, I have only seen one with a YS 170 CDI and the owner assured me he made 5kg with it easily with nothing too fancy and I believe him. I also can't comment how much heavier an electric setup is compared to IC, probably about 100g depending on batteries and equipment?

wagen017

Here some weights Dave send me. I put mine under it:


Below are the weights as measured right out of the box....all tape and packing removed.

Dave's Valiant
QC stickers Oct 10
fuse 770
engine cover 99
wing tube 115
rt wing 417
left wing 427 !!!!
stab tube 16
rt stab 132
left stab 132
rudder 67
pants 19 (each)
gear 142 (both)
canopy 138
Total 2493

Volkert's Valiant
QC sticker 6/10/09
fuse 829 (fuse + chin cowl)
engine cover
wing tube 110
rt wing 396
left wing 390
stab tube 15
rt stab 122
left stab 120
rudder 69
pants 34
gear 127
canopy 130

Total 2342

As reference added sc204' Valiant (build Oct 2009)
fuse 735
engine cover 77
wing tube 113
rt wing 414
left wing 401
stab tube 16
rt stab 122
left stab 121
rudder 68
pants 36
gear 126 (both)
canopy 155
Total 2384

This would suggest a significant difference or a difference of scales. Any suggestions for calibration?

I "calibrated" my digital scale with the analog kitchen scale using a pack of rice. Was 408 vs. 413 on the analog. So those are pretty close.

volkert

byoung466

My Feedback: (16)

My gram scale came with a calibration weight. My larger digital scale i used some steel that was close to 11'lb and weighed it at work on the calibrated scale there. If your scale is off a few grams and you are weighting a dozen parts maybe things aren't as bad as you think, or maybe they are worse