kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

Oh man...you don't want to get on that subject[X(]

I don't know if Cees would agree, but technically this is the oldest Taurus, but this plane is a very early version, and is more of a hybrid between the Orion and Taurus. The Taurus development period took several years...this plane was an early Taurus, (at least Ed CALLED IT A TAURUS), but the sucessful Taurus concept wasn't there. Ed didn't like the way it flew, and one report at least said it crashed at the 1961 NATS.

The sticky part of the arguement comes when you go to describe what actually was the oldest REAL Taurus, (one that you would recognize as a Taurus with the short nose moment and long tail moment. For a study of that topic, pop some popcorn and start reading the Ed Kazmirski's Taurus thread.

Duane

Michaelj2k

Here's a link back to the "Flop" conversation from the Taurus thread.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8645245

Taurus Flyer

Paternguy,

I not even know if the two pictures of the both "Flop's" are made of the same (parts of) planes.
For me that is most important to find out first.
Remember I did show, Ed did mix up his planes before!

Cees

Paternguy

My Feedback: (1)

I am going by the title of this thread. So let me get this straight Ed desinged the Taurus and we have an early picture of him holding a plane called the Taurus.

So the one in this picture could be called the Taurus 1 and the one we all know and recognize would actually be the Taurus 2 or maybe 3.

So the problem is the title of this thread is misleading ?

Taurus Flyer

Paternguy,
Still going on is the action to categorize all different "Taurus" models there were in the past, that’s why I do update my personal "Taurus Construction and Flying Schedule" (TCFS) with all new data I receive, a process that is still going on.
Keep in mind that also the Simla was called a Taurus by Ed and he distinguished only three main groups of the Taurus. The Flop is of the first group of course, only the name can exist in different configurations.
In the schedule I also do show the important comparable planes that were designed in the same period.

More to come.

Cees

Taurus Flyer

Gents
A short note about the Flop to add with the last post.
This thread is about the crate picture I did receive of the legacy of Ed Kazmirski and the reconstruction of the plane on the right side, my duplicate called “Wester Taurus” for this period.

My first impression is, the new picture of the Flop is very valuable to have a closer look on the evolution of the paint scheme, but also clear to me and important, accurate calculation of the dimensions is possible now.
Posts that redirect to the Ed Kazmirski’s Taurus are useless, I did show before the lack of accuracy and know how does make any indication of dimensions useless. Also there are all kind of aerodynamic details structurally underestimate in that thread IMO.

The picture, the crate picture of april 1962 made during the trip to Rhodesia,


More to come

Cees.

Taurus Flyer

A short note to test posting on RCU and to make the info post about the crate picture complete.

In picture I do show some steps of the past, in the reconstruction process of the Wester Taurus, First drawing study picture, construction ready and primer, last picture painted.

“Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth” is a thread about the process of history repair, just like Darwin (1809 – 1882) did write his book as result of his study:
On the origin of species by means of natural selection on the preservation on favoured races in the struggle for life.

One important step in the process of “Redesign an reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth” was the construction of the Wester Taurus, to repair a hole in history. Flying will take place next year.
In the future I also can show the copy or parts of interest of the Flop just as I do of the Simla now or maybe even a built thread of the Flop, who knows?
These all are aspects of rediscovering, like traveling with the “Beagle ” of Darwin through all documents, pictures and schedules of the past search for facts, no fiction.

Try out:

This post is also a try out for me.
Posting pictures is not possible now,
In the past I did post one picture each time (post). I always make a copy of the text before uploading a post. Uploading has to go within a second, if not, cancel, start over to post, insert the text copy, upload a picture and upload the post again.
This is the sixt (no) seventh attempt, now without a picture!!
More to come.

8 th Maybe the picture?
NO.
9 th
No
10th
500 - Internal server error.
There is a problem with the resource you are looking for, and it cannot be displayed.



Cees

Paternguy

My Feedback: (1)

So Ed called all of these models the Taurus? If so maybe they should be designated 1 through 10 or however many there were, similar to What Don Lowe did with the Pheonix.

Didn't someone already redo the Simla ?

Taurus Flyer

I use a schedule to archive the different models and all modifications, of the Simla of Ed we know it wasn’t the only one in the past.
Cees

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

With all due respect to Mr Wester, several of Ed's friends built planes the same size as the Simla about the same time period, but I am aware of only ONE Simla (for sure), ever being built, and it was built by Ed. Les Fruh may or may not have duplicated Ed's Simla....there isn't a good picture of Fruh's model available to my knowledge to compare them.

As I said other versions of a large pattern plane were built by Ed's flying buddies from the Chicago area, (Curt Dimberg, Les Fruh and likely others). While similar because these models were built by a group of friends, these other pilots often put their own distinct features on their models, (different wingspans and overall shapes). In an article entitled "Big Stuff", you can see the Simla and Dimberg's model. There is another view of Dimberg's model in the Ed Kazmirski's Taurus thread, and it looks quite a bit different from the Simla when viewed from a 3/4 angle from the front. There is another photo of Vic Husak's "Cream Puff", which is also the same size as the Simla, but not the same at all.

If Cees can find pictures of others posing with their (stock), Simlas, then I will yield to his facts.

Taurus Flyer

Yes, The picture,
First study drawing (see picture below) of the "Flop" is also on the drawing table now.
The reconstruction process period of the "Wester Taurus", about 20 months!


cees

Paternguy

My Feedback: (1)

So you are building a Flop ( Taurus 1) now?

What about the other Simla airframes you are refering too? I wwould love to see the other variants of this bird.

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

I'd like to see "other Simla airframes" too....there was only ONE Simla, (see picture). All the "variants" of the Simla are pretty much posted in post #835 above. I think Cees is referring to them in his post #834, but he might have something else in mind..it's hard to tell.

Taurus Flyer

For the Flop I did make a “scaled” picture to make me familiar with the ideas of the designer and the shape and details of the model. I always do that to learn the model by making such detailed pictures and of course with the color scheme. will pin this picture on the wall to look at for the future. All other pictures are forbidden as normally as I did explain before. (off topic)
Nearly the end of the "dust free period" so construction of the Simla is going on now.
There is a little bit distortion in the picture! Reason? Distance and prevent reflection of light.

Cees

Taurus Flyer

Gents,

IMAGING or IMAGINATION

There was some more time to spend in the “dust free period” so I did make one more step, made some more drawings after calculations, for the future “Flop” built.

Important argument is, each year, New Year’s day, I also do have some more empty rocket motor containers to store more drawings, so why not. (LOL) See picture 2 and 3.

Just as with the Oldest Taurus on Earth and the Crate picture I do need to know the POV, the exact location the original pictures are made from. Not only for detailed calculations and comparison but also to check the result of a reconstruction process after the plane is finished.

Calculated POV of one of “Flop” picture 1 to show what’s possible:

Reference line horizontal (no tail dragger), calculated is the distances from the propeler nut refenence location on the floor in x (307cm) – y (20cm) – z (148cm) direction to the centre of the objective.

It is also possible to express the location in angles starting with the propeller nut, 3,75 degrees horizontal forward, 23 degrees elevation, total distance between objective and propeller nut of the engine: 308,2 cm.
When the outside conditions are good I will make a picture of the Oldest Taurus on Earth replica with the use of the calculated values of this picture to do the important double check.

IMPORTANT NOTE,

Each situation does need a different way to calculate but, glad, for that we have all kind of programs now, see an example, piece of an personal Excel sheet formulae:
=PRODUCT(MACHT(COS(BOOGTAN((PRODUCT(SOM(K25;-K26);MACHT(SOM(J25;-J26);-1)))));-1);L25)

Disadvantage is , it is always complicated however you do it.

For who is interested in a comparable realized project in the English language, read the article “Rediscovery of the Nixie”. Shown by WEDJ in post 1149 of Ed Kazmirski’s Taurus thread! You also can read about the use of a laser beam instrument, not to verify a (crate) picture as I did, but to measure distances, reverse engineering, of a curved surface.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8634574

There still are people that think my project is "imagination", but these calculations are as old as the way to Rome. See post 1595 of the Ed Kazmirski's Taurus thread.

First picture the “Flop” with the data of the Point of View in distances and angles.

Picture 2 and 3 empty rocket motor containers to use for drawing storage. QA Hanna inspecting!
Picture 3 of Hanna, in her air-raid shelter under the stairs, food storage location. Always a problem all that firework.



More to come. (also the pictures!, done)

Cees

Taurus Flyer

Gents, I could not resist!!!!

FLOP picture 2

Of course it isn’t all definitive but after calculating the POV of the second picture of the Flop I did make a reference picture myself of my Oldest Taurus on Earth (Wester Taurus) of that POV and I do want to show you the result.

SEE THE PICTURE

I did glue a reference line on the fin and rudder to show the real vertical of the very raked fin and rudder (first reason I do have the crate picture!). See detailed picture insert and accentuation with blue lines. The angle of the blue line of the both planes must be the same in both pictures!!!!!
BTW For these measurements I do use a basic reconstructed copy of the Flop picture, only both halves are repositioned in the right position/location.
First important distance to measure for me was the red line, 637 pixels long.
After that all other orange lines I did draw, also 637 pixels long.

RESULTS

1
Interesting to see, the top of the total fuselage of the Flop is on a higher location than the top of the Oldest Taurus on Earth, I already did noticed this in the side view of course. The first REAL Taurus was very slender, this also was one fact I did discover of the crate picture.
2
The nose of the Flop is much longer and we already knew but now it isn’t difficult to calculate the exact distance of the engine location in mm.
3
The thrust line is lower, visible in the engine of the Flop and the (end) location of the orange line. Again a reason I do have the crate picture. The Oldest Taurus on Earth never could be designed with an inverted engine!! Inverted flying with the Flop was also a problem (I think!).
4
The tail cone looks as long as the cone of the Oldest (real) Taurus on Earth, see the LE of the stab's, only the shape is much different so the effective moment of the stab is much more.

5 QA always most important.
Yellow oval, Hanna.


If anyone does reconstruct the Flop, we can do an independent examination for you, we did it already of other planes too.
If you do a contra expertise, do it on a professional way to prevent damage on other peoples project, and not this way!
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8850402
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8853456

It is easy to play down other people’s project, but it doesn’t demonstrate professionalism of the initiators when they cannot show an own professional prove of them self.

NOTE FOR MODERATORS, THERE WERE NO PROBLEMS TO UPLOAD THIS LONG POST ALSO NOT THE PICTURES!

More to come.

Cees

Paternguy

My Feedback: (1)

I'm still waiting to see those "other" Simla pics.

Taurus Flyer

Paternguy,

During a process of a 3 D reconstruction, plane or anything else, I never bring any other object under attention than of the original object or other useful examples. I did explain that before.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9945876

Result is I do have an optimal undisturbed reference of the original in my mind.

When I look in the database of casniffer for example I immediately see that “Taurus” that isn’t a Taurus. When I see the movie of Genk Belgium I see the plane Ed did use was mixed up because for many years I already did know the remarkable details more than anybody else. The crate picture I did recognize because one of the Taurusses wasn’t the “we all know Taurus” either.

And the Simla?

You can compare my process with crime investigation. Reconstructing that particular single face of a missing person with the use of what is left. For the Simla that is for me, all I did learn of the crate picture and the Oldest Taurus on Earth (0,67 % “prototype” Simla), other data and a lot of pictures.
So for the time being you have to do it with the answer I did give you before.

More to come,

Cees

Paternguy

My Feedback: (1)

You mentioned that there were other Simla airframes in the past.

I was waiting for you to post the pictures of these other airframes.

Taurus Flyer

I only do archive facts in my Taurus construction and flying schedule!! Important pictures are scheduled and dated and shown.
I still look for additional information of the shown picture.
Who knows data, magazine, pattern event?
Taurus of Les Fruh.

Cees

Taurus Flyer

Gents,

Interesting to show, the first calculated value of the angle between the elevator hinge line and the length axle of the fuselage.
Tenth's of degrees? Yes, it's a impression of the accuracy of my calculations but much more important for me:

Flop, reborn from ashes.

Maybe in the future, so, more dust now!!!!!!!

Cees

bem

My Feedback: (1)

Cees,

Maybe there is something of interest for You about Taurus in the soon released Charles (Chuck)Winter updated DVD?
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=10242404

I think I will order one copy of that DVD when it is ready - will be fun to see old classic pattern planes from the 1960th.

/Bo

Taurus Flyer

/Bo,


Bem,
Charles Winter did make movie’s in 1963 and later, too late for my project to be interesting.
Cees

Taurus Flyer

Gents,

Calculating round in circles, Blaise Pascal.

In post 16 and 20 I did show my used principle, laser beaming, to project a lot of remarkable points of the Oldest Taurus on Earth. visible on the crate picture (also 3D!). on the building drawings.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=7993660

The make accurate calculations it is important to know exact location of the POV, the position of the camera that was used to make the picture.
For the calculations there are several methods, using of silhouettes of several pictures (Simla), triangulation of remarkable points (Crate picture) and study of surface texture to reconstruct curved surfaces.
I did do a new second check of the POV of the crate on the crate picture and also did calculate the real dimensions of the crate, you never know! See picture 1.

And Blaise?

Blaise Pascal (1623 – 1662) was a very influential French mathematician and philosopher who contributed to many areas of mathematics so for that of course he is also related with this project. I did show the name before, fuel tank layout and fuel pressure:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8300881

It is interesting to read about Pascal’s projective geometry and the Pascaline calculator (Google), I prefer my HP 41 CV and HP 42 S and do not need the projective geometry but much more of trigonometry

More to come.

Cees

Taurus Flyer

Gents, the crate, main subject of this thread.

Second detailed (back-up) calculation of the mains, distance between the wheels (1), legs (2) and height of the legs, diameters of the wheels, calculated 69,8 so 70 mm is 2 3/4 ". see the cut out picture.
Most important is the crate to show me the right direction of the calculation of distances 1 and 2.
For the Simla the picture I did show for the strip elevator linking is important, it shows us the mounting position of the left main leg.

More to come,
Cees

Edit: upload second picture.