fcomer84

We have all laid out our concerns and remedies, let us just let the organizers put it to pencil and go by their wisdom. A happy medium can be found for us to race a simple series and expand on it. KISS principle works GREAT!

Tx_RcFlyer

My Feedback: (7)

Simple pre race tech inspections. It sounds like ifthe liner\piston and head have been swapped out, that's obviously detected visually. Use a go no-go gauge for this andthe carb bore, and the old screw driver in the muffler for baffle check. If during qualifying the CD is suspecious of an illegal engine. he has the option of a detailed inspection before the mains start.We usually have about a 30 minuteplus break anyway betweenquals and mains.Make the racer disassemble and reassemble while a designated person observes and inspects while the CD goes about his business prepping the race matrix. This way if it is illegal, the cheater has now lost his entry fee and is told to pack his stuff and don't bother coming back to any events the remainder of the year.

I think that would satisfy most. If the CD wants to do a post race tear down, thats fine. Maybe even have a racer vote on that during the pre racepilots meeting.

Personally, knowing I have a4+ hour drive going home and now have to wait another hour or more before i get on the roadfor a mandatorypost race inspection for a whopping third place finish, that might start removing the fun factor for me.

skull1971

Have you spoke to Steve about this? and what does he have to say?

Tx_RcFlyer

My Feedback: (7)

We will know soon, he is reading the thread now. LOL!

Well, he was reading it. :-(

stevelesl

Ted and I spoke yesterday at the Alvin Club (as per my previous post). We kicked around the same stuff that everyone has been posting, my view is that we do a pre race tech inspection (which we have not been doing in any detail before) which includes the through plug hole stroke test, carb bore test, muffler baffle test and the rest of the visual checks on servos, linkages, airframe etc.
As far as props are concerned, these would be monitored throughout the races as people have been known to use modified props ..... beleive it or not ......
Fueling will be monitored as well (in Alvin at least),
By the way, Alvin will also continue to use the pilot draw system to determine matrix positions this prevent folks from trying to avoid racing their buddy through the heats.
As previously mentioned on an e-mail we sent around the south texas CD's, I think we need a 30 minute teleconference to decide what the south texas "standard" tech will be and distribute the outcome to all participants, otherwise this forum will blow up the RC Universe servers .................

fcomer84

Stroke test is useless. Advantage comes from increased bore.

JohnMcGowan

My Feedback: (15)

What did you Texas gentlemen think about my penny/nickel test on the cylinder height ?
I think its simple, doesnt cost but .06 cents to do and may take all of a whopping 15 seconds to perform to see if someone has slipped a 46 liner and piston in a 40 case.

Taken partially from the infamous OJ trial.....If the penny fits , you must acquit! LOL

Seriously, what do you think about the test? I'd like your opinions, good or bad.

Sounds like there are one or more limited number of "suspect" pilots that are blowing away everybody else down in Texas, is that what feeling Im getting from yall?

So far here in Bama, we are all behaving for the most part in Club 40 I feel and there has been no one person that has just blown the competition away time after time that I can recall. Or at least thats the way I saw it for the 2010 season.
John

skull1971

Umm,, I disagree!!

Tx_RcFlyer

My Feedback: (7)

I spend all my money on replacing crashed airframes. Not normal for me to have any change in my pocket to make available for use a go nogo gauge.

I wouldn't say anyone is being blown away. But, there are abviously some planes that are considerably faster, makeup a lot of time considered the pilots limited flying skillsand have a different exhaust notethat could lead one to believe there is some monkey business going on.

Ken Erickson

John,

As for me, I believe you have the most simplest, useful test for the TT Pro sleve swap. Yes, I personally tested my engines. Had the .46 before I got the .40.

It was my hope that we would not have trouble with the few people who would cheat. As of now, we only have some assumptions and everyone now knows of one way that cheating can be done.

There have been suggestions and requests for pre-race inspections, post race inspections and at will inspections. Probably, no matter what the RCPRO Club 40 Committee will suggest, this will turn out to often be a local choice. Something more to put on the race announcements/flyers.

Ken Erickson

fcomer84

Don't forget that some engines just run better than others. Thats fine with me as long as the engines are the same displacement.

dasintex

My Feedback: (10)

Club 46 sounding better! no need to do any extensive tech Inspection, check the weight, check for baffles and that's about it; everyone uses the same engine and prop, most are already using the same plane, mostly skyraiders, we already known how they run with 46TT's; solve a lot of this mess; I know it involves spending some more bucks for new engines, I may get more involved if I knew everone was running the same engines and the class was more even and fair; thats the big reason why I don't travel 3 hours, no offense to the guys and clubs running races down south, but I'm not going to spend all that time, gas and money participating in a class that is infected with cheating; I always wondered how some people always manage to blast down the straightaways and leave everyone in the dust, and their engines always seem to sound different.

still4given

I know the 46 engine is tempting because almost everyone has one laying around not being used. I know I have a couple in the closet. The problem is that they don't translate well to other pylon events. One advantage to the TT Pro 40 is that it is the spec engine in 424 so when a fellow is ready to move into Q500 he already has some engines to get started with. I'm not for moving to the .46 and I am more than willing to provide a thorough Pre-flight inspection at our races. Guys who aren't cheaters will welcome an inspection that helps confirm that they will be running against legal engines.

Blessings, Terry

BarryReade

My Feedback: (1)

An interesting thread to say the least.

But, unless something is done at the local level to deter people from exceeding the allowable options they will continue to happen.

As far as the muffler baffle is concerned there have been multiple test run and in all of them the motors that do not have a baffle run slower than those with a baffle.  I ran one of those tests and I don't even check for baffles any more because that guys motor is going to be slower than one with a bffle.  there are also two different style baffles that come on the PRO 40 muffler.  A cyclone design and a cone design.  Jim Duda did a test last summer and they were even with maybe, and I say maybe. a 50 rpm advantage to the cyclone baffle.  That could be just a change in time of day or whatever.  How many folks actually disassemble a muffler and check the internals???

fcomer84

Club .46!!! Let's see, I think the Magnum 52 parts will go in the Magnum .46 case. Not sure about the Evolution engines but I'll check. And what about the O.S. 55AX?
Changing engines is not the answer.

BarryReade

My Feedback: (1)

You got that right Frank. It doesn't matter what engine you run if you do not police the event people will push beyond the envelope. Club 40 is no different from NASCAR, Formula One, NFL, NBA, MLB, Bicycle racing, Track and Field. Whenever there is competition people are looking for an edge to be the Best/Winner.

Scorpion Racing

Could I make a suggestion here? I do not race club 40, but I do race AMA classes. I applaud you guys for allowing any 40 sized engine and most any prop, as this allows some adjustment for weather, airframe and altitude adjustments without much trouble. It also makes it easier for a new guy to enter, since you allow multiple engines. All good points to help a new guy get started. For the guys with some experience in the class, they may decide to use the TT 40 PRO and can then fly other classes with that engine too.

As far as the rule breakers, I think it is more of a perception thing than a common practice. Do some guys cheat? SURE they do. Do as many people cheat as some think? Not at all. The problem is, one guy wins a race and was caught cheating. Ok then, woodshed time for him. Now the perception is, "that if a guy is fast, he must be cheating." Not all fast guys cheat, some just practice a lot more than others! The last thing you need is a false perception of cheating going on.

We use a very extensive set of rules in AMA class racing, for this very reason. You could adopt the same (or similar) rules to spell out your list of usable engines, props and allowable adjustments in them. The rules are there so that everyone knows the boundaries, so if you step over the line, there is no excuse excepted. The other big deterrent to cheating; $25 protest and engine claiming rules. If you think someone is cheating, give the $25 to the CD, and the CD will do the protest inspection. All you have to do is have the protested pilot pull the head and the CD mic the bore & stroke and do the math. (bore x Pi x stroke = volume) Done in a couple of minutes and if the guy who was protested was legal, he just made $25 for his troubles and was proven not to be a cheater!

As far as inspections, we do a safety inspection of the aircraft during Friday practice or a quick look over prior to the race. If you want to go-no-go the airframes, a single aluminum gauge with all the dimensions set works real well and a plane can be checked and weighed in 2 minutes or less. As a CD of an event, you are allowed to do random inspections as needed. I check ever ones baffle a couple of times randomly at the line. I use a 4-40 rod with the last 2 inches bent slightly and insert it into the rear exhaust opening. Size the rod so that the rod will not go thru a new baffle, but if it has been opened up some, the rod will pass thru. I also try to use the rod to feel for holes drilled into the baffle (swiss cheese effect!). Do we ever catch people, I haven't seen it in years now that we do the random checks.

I would suggest you write the rules, and make sure everyone knows the set of rules will be followed at your race. Do random checks, and let the guys know the top 5 may be impounded for inspection after the race. Just knowing it could happen, is a very good deterrent. As a CD, do some random inspections so the guys know you are serious; this is for the cheaters to see as well as the guy who may think the cheaters are getting away with something. Pretty soon the perception of cheating will go away, as well as the odd bad seed. You don't have to spend your day doing inspections, just make sure you do some policing so everyone feels secure.

Just my thoughts...

P.S. We use a central fueling station and all pilots have to de-fuel & re-fuel there. There plane will remain there until they fly their heat.

(P.S. added and a couple of spelling errors!)

dasintex

My Feedback: (10)

That is why I further suggested to change the rules whereby everyone runs the same engine that being a TT Pro 46; same prop and same plane; problem solved.

Oldbob

Dough a single rule is not the answer. you will still have to open up the engine to inspect for grinding on ports,drilling on baffles etc.

Bob

mroyer

My Feedback: (2)

Technicality; volume = .25 * bore * bore * pi* stroke

Mike

fcomer84

Go - NoGo gauges take all the math and measuring out of the process. It either IS or it AIN'T and go to the next one. Quick and simple.

Ken Erickson

Between Terry and Scorpion racing, they have written my posting.

Except: The rules are written. We have had the $25.00 protest for several years. Maybe we made a mistake when we wanted a one page set of rules for what goes up in the air and called the rest of the "Rules" the "Procedures". Still, we have been telling you all to go to the RCPRO site and read the "Procedures". But, when I sent the entire set of documents to our newest committee member, he commented on how much there was to read!

As much as I have bad names for those who actually cheat, I am thoroughly convined that there are very few who do. Right now there seems to be (is) the perception that there is a lot of cheating. To counter that, those of us who conduct/promote the races need to give the perception that we are doing what is needed to prevent and punish cheating. I believe a lot of that can be done by all of you reading the "Procedures" document, which is derived from sections 1-15 of the "AMA Pylon Racing Regulations".

Terry has answered the question, "Why is it RCPRO Club 40?". Maybe, if the next step up for racers changes to the use of the .46, we will too. For now, those of you with the really good engines and flying skills are encourages to give 424 a try. For three-pole, the short course is available and the setback is only 25 feet more than for RCPRO Club 40.

I have been giving directions to it. No one seems to be finding it. Skully posted the link: [link=http://www.rcpro.org/net/%28S%28wejuj5jtknj2ihuxee5m3445%29%29/ThreadView.aspx?threadid=977]Here it is again.[/link]

Ken Erickson

Ken Erickson

Known fact: Rules are usless if they are not enforced. It helps if all involved, especially the race officials, know the rules.

Ken Erickson

dasintex

My Feedback: (10)

Hey Bob; It's 'Doug' not 'Dough' no problem either way.

Anyways, I must be naive or something; I used to drag race snomobiles back home in Canada, and people cheated and tweaked all the time, but at least it may have been worth it because there was always Cash Purses up for grabs which would easily cover your costs; what I don't get or understand is why do we have people cheating in Club 40 when there is no reward other than bragging rights and a Coaster for your drink at home or a cheap trophy. How can you get anything out of a victory if you cheated to get it.

It certainly defeats the whole purpose of the Club 40 Class; I know I don't participate as much as I did 2 years ago because of the obvious cheating. I thought the rules were simple enough for everyone to follow; build the plane stock and run a stock engine, it couldn't get any easier than that. Some maintain that it still up to pilot skill, I have to argue that, when you see some planes leaving you in the dust on the straightaways and their engines have a different sound and performance than yours; doesn't matter how good you are, if your not cheating your not going to beat those planes.

Anyways, not sure how you and the other CD's are going to tame this mess, best of luck and appreciation.

Doug.

fcomer84

Mess is cleaned up by rules enforcement. Someone has to READ and UNDERSTAND the rules, then physically get up and do the checking.