CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
#1801
Thread Starter
RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
ORIGINAL: TFF
There is another reason to offset the cylinders which just came to mind; it can help with wear on the cylinder walls.
There is another reason to offset the cylinders which just came to mind; it can help with wear on the cylinder walls.
#1803
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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
Okay,
Here is the engine manual, although it is for the DIVa engine, sorry, it's all I've got. Even though it is a latter version the design might have remained very similar. How's your German? The manual is in German of course, I hope you can read it as it might explain any cylinder offset in the text.
There are two useful diagrams - but they may only add to your conundrum. The left hand sketch shows a slight offset whereas the right hand profile seems centered. Maybe the text of the manual will enlighten us all.
I will keep searching for other info.
Good luck,
Brian
Too large a file to attach the manual, here is the link
http://home.comcast.net/~shademaker/DIVa.pdf
from the Aerodrome Forum
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ai...ne-manual.html
Might this be of help?
Daimler Motor Mercedes 160 & 180 HP 1914-1918 general arrangement and detail drawings - 2 sheets full of dimensions and technical descriptions. Drawn 60+ years ago by W. A. Wylam 1947 with assistance from Msrs G. D. Angle & E. H. Sherbondy.
http://web.me.com/blairsaam/eBayAuct...1813_29338.jpg
Here is the engine manual, although it is for the DIVa engine, sorry, it's all I've got. Even though it is a latter version the design might have remained very similar. How's your German? The manual is in German of course, I hope you can read it as it might explain any cylinder offset in the text.
There are two useful diagrams - but they may only add to your conundrum. The left hand sketch shows a slight offset whereas the right hand profile seems centered. Maybe the text of the manual will enlighten us all.
I will keep searching for other info.
Good luck,
Brian
Too large a file to attach the manual, here is the link
http://home.comcast.net/~shademaker/DIVa.pdf
from the Aerodrome Forum
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ai...ne-manual.html
Might this be of help?
Daimler Motor Mercedes 160 & 180 HP 1914-1918 general arrangement and detail drawings - 2 sheets full of dimensions and technical descriptions. Drawn 60+ years ago by W. A. Wylam 1947 with assistance from Msrs G. D. Angle & E. H. Sherbondy.
http://web.me.com/blairsaam/eBayAuct...1813_29338.jpg
#1804
RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
I would be very surprised that in 1916-17 that the engineers with their early understanding of internal combustion could perceive an advantage in having the crankshaft offset.
#1806
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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
Does this schematic of the Mercedes DIIIa help? I found it but don't have time to check the symmetry.
Located here:
http://www.aeroscale.co.uk/modules.p...=102665&page=1
Located here:
http://www.aeroscale.co.uk/modules.p...=102665&page=1
#1808
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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
Bob all cylinders wear in an oval pattern due to the awful centrifugal forces involved in throwing an offset crank throw with an iron conrod bolted to it while shoving and tugging on the piston, which accelerates and decelerates at incredible rates during the engine cycle. Heres a picture of a bore guage used to check cylinder taper and out of round, a basic check before overhauling any engine. Sorry if it looks well used.
Doc
Doc
#1810
Thread Starter
RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
People were smarter than we think "in the past." Here's astronomical calculating device created hundreds of years before the Greeks supposedly came up with the idea (about 100BC).
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110109.html
If I can't find evidence that the offset cylinders are wrong, the right thing to do as an "archivist" is to keep this feature. Plus, it's a bit of a novelty. But since actually instances of the Benz Bz III still exist, it would be a simple matter of just looking at one to discover the truth.
Brian, thanks for the Daimler manual. I'll see if I can skim through it for clues later today.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110109.html
If I can't find evidence that the offset cylinders are wrong, the right thing to do as an "archivist" is to keep this feature. Plus, it's a bit of a novelty. But since actually instances of the Benz Bz III still exist, it would be a simple matter of just looking at one to discover the truth.
Brian, thanks for the Daimler manual. I'll see if I can skim through it for clues later today.
#1811
My Feedback: (2)
RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
Don, take a look at this site and pay particular attention to the engine.
http://www.largescaleplanes.com/revi...2002/32002.php
http://www.largescaleplanes.com/revi...2002/32002.php
#1812
Thread Starter
RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
In a quick scan through the text of the DIV manual I didn't see any suggestion that the cylinders were off-center. But then on that engine they don't appear to be.
This is the closest to a straight-on photo as I'm likely to find. And it's hard to say.
This is the closest to a straight-on photo as I'm likely to find. And it's hard to say.
#1814
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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
Make that "2 odd ducks"
From this source (which is Arizona Models and so now I am LOL) it appears that both the Benz 100 and the Benz 150 had offset cylinders! Check out the diagrams.
http://www.finemodelworks.com/arizon...Benz/Benz.html
These diagrams are however what I call drafted "sketches" because they contain both errors and simplifications! You must check and recheck against photos if you use them. You can see the Benz BzIV sketch for my engine and I believe the sketch reference for your BZ III engine. They provide a good starting point but for my purposes a much more detailed engine plan was needed. Luckily I found one. So if this is "all there is" for engine documentation then you go with what the diagrams are telling you - now their are two engines with offset cylinders. And in the fast & quick evolution of engine design the offset cylinders were abandoned for the design of the BzIV.
I was trying to help, didn't really mean to do this to you... Maybe email the museum curator and have them take a photo straight on for you to analyse.
What to do eh!
You've uncovered quite a mystery here Don. If offset cylinders are for real then you have quite a unique engine to model. If the offset is erroneous then you still have a nifty engine to model...
Are you still enjoying this?
Cheers,
Brian
From this source (which is Arizona Models and so now I am LOL) it appears that both the Benz 100 and the Benz 150 had offset cylinders! Check out the diagrams.
http://www.finemodelworks.com/arizon...Benz/Benz.html
These diagrams are however what I call drafted "sketches" because they contain both errors and simplifications! You must check and recheck against photos if you use them. You can see the Benz BzIV sketch for my engine and I believe the sketch reference for your BZ III engine. They provide a good starting point but for my purposes a much more detailed engine plan was needed. Luckily I found one. So if this is "all there is" for engine documentation then you go with what the diagrams are telling you - now their are two engines with offset cylinders. And in the fast & quick evolution of engine design the offset cylinders were abandoned for the design of the BzIV.
I was trying to help, didn't really mean to do this to you... Maybe email the museum curator and have them take a photo straight on for you to analyse.
What to do eh!
You've uncovered quite a mystery here Don. If offset cylinders are for real then you have quite a unique engine to model. If the offset is erroneous then you still have a nifty engine to model...
Are you still enjoying this?
Cheers,
Brian
#1815
Thread Starter
RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
ORIGINAL: Flying Fox
From this source (which is Arizona Models and so now I am LOL) it appears that both the Benz 100 and the Benz 150 had offset cylinders! Check out the diagrams.
From this source (which is Arizona Models and so now I am LOL) it appears that both the Benz 100 and the Benz 150 had offset cylinders! Check out the diagrams.
Seeing that there are two of these off-set engines by Benz, which would amount to two drafting errors (of a serious sort) on two different documents, I think I should go ahead and do the offset cylinders on my model.
You've uncovered quite a mystery here Don. If offset cylinders are for real then you have quite a unique engine to model. If the offset is erroneous then you still have a nifty engine to model...
#1816
Thread Starter
RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
Here's another rotated shot of the Benz in the Krakaw C1. The rocker rods are missing on this engine, but again there's little to suggest an offset to the cylinders. One important thing to note however, is that the first cylinder sits well ahead of the first former. Now, I wonder...the flat milled top of the crankcase was most definitely asymmetrical, curving smoothly up on the left but with the extensions for the rocker rods on the right. Could this have fooled the original sketch artist? Did one artist produce both of the sketches with the offset cylinders?
(Did "ancient astronauts" really visit the Nazca plains of Peru?)
(Did "ancient astronauts" really visit the Nazca plains of Peru?)
#1817
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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
Don, I have the huge Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War 1 which is basically a reprint of several Flight articles, which also has a lot on the Benz 230 HP Engine including scale (dimensioned!) drawings. I'm not sure if this is the one you're looking at, but at a quick glance it seems to be the same. The cylinders were certainly NOT offset. I have a big presentation this afternoon, so can't scan the drawings for you right now, maybe later this eveninig. Chris
#1818
Thread Starter
RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
Here's an explanation of the utility of an offset cylinder:
http://www.insightcentral.net/encycl.../enoffset.html
http://www.insightcentral.net/encycl.../enoffset.html
#1819
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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
ORIGINAL: CTDavies
Don, I have the huge Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War 1 which is basically a reprint of several Flight articles, which also has a lot on the Benz 230 HP Engine including scale (dimensioned!) drawings. I'm not sure if this is the one you're looking at, but at a quick glance it seems to be the same. The cylinders were certainly NOT offset. I have a big presentation this afternoon, so can't scan the drawings for you right now, maybe later this eveninig. Chris
Don, I have the huge Jane's Fighting Aircraft of World War 1 which is basically a reprint of several Flight articles, which also has a lot on the Benz 230 HP Engine including scale (dimensioned!) drawings. I'm not sure if this is the one you're looking at, but at a quick glance it seems to be the same. The cylinders were certainly NOT offset. I have a big presentation this afternoon, so can't scan the drawings for you right now, maybe later this eveninig. Chris
Russ
#1820
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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
Back in the dispute, I approach the argument from the perspective of an "ancient" draughtsman: Although the drawings are done in a rather crude manner but they are accompanied by the size, this would mean that the measurements are carried out effectively.
It may be inferred therefore that there is actually the offset of the cylinders, the photographs shown are unlikely to help because of the effect of perspective, would require a photo taken in front of or from, I remember the curator of the Museum of Kracovia as a person very nice and helpful so it might be the case ask him .......
#1821
Thread Starter
RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
For you hardcore engineers out there. Here is proof that offset piston/crankshaft designs exist and have been seriously studied. For me all this adds up to a "yes" the cylinders on the Benz Bz III (as well as the earlier engine) probably were offset but the design was abandoned on later Benz engines (and also on the Mercedes engines). This really boils down to basic geometry of forces and this stuff would have been obvious to engine designers back in WWI.
One of the conclusions:
"The offset crankshaft engine decreases the side thrust force, when compared with the conventional engine but it has a smaller torque."
One of the conclusions:
"The offset crankshaft engine decreases the side thrust force, when compared with the conventional engine but it has a smaller torque."
#1823
Thread Starter
RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
More fuel for the fire: The Anzani 6 apparently had on offset to the cylinders relative to the center point. Such an offset was referred to as "désaxé." So this design concept was well-known even before the war!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzani_6
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzani_6
#1825
Thread Starter
RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
ORIGINAL: BobH
Don, take a look at this site and pay particular attention to the engine.
http://www.largescaleplanes.com/revi...2002/32002.php
Don, take a look at this site and pay particular attention to the engine.
http://www.largescaleplanes.com/revi...2002/32002.php