bjr_93tz

After about 15 years and a couple of major life changing events, the pendulum had begun to swing back to rekindle my interest in pattern. I dusted off the old SlingShot with Hanno and prepped it for a local comp and I was happy not to embarass myself too much. Another two comps over the rest of the year provided the resolve, and a good year on the stock market provided the funds. November 2009 saw an order placed for a new YS DZ170cdi shortly followed by an order in January 2010 for a new Oxai Aries 07. The 14MZ had already been in service for about 2 years now..

While waiting for the Aries to turn up I quickly knocked up a box fuze thingy so I could give the YS a run. Mounted upright and in free air, what better way to run in a motor not that it needed it. All the horror tales I'd heard about YS engines seemed to be old wives tales as it fired up without issue and never skipped a beat. 20 - 30 flights later and not a single deadstick and it always started first prod of the starter I was confident to transfer this motor over into the Aries when the time would come.

13 April 2010, Aries 07 arrived, parts weighed, assembly begins....

Tower Hobbies had been really kind with their discount e-mails so most of the servos had already been bought, it was a real international scavenger hunt for obscure items such as Go-Model horns and K&S fuel tanks, Hirobo ball ends and many other little bits and pieces, but find them I did and installed them where the pictures on the internet showed where they should go.


27 May 2010, Just the YS cdi module left, I'd better check the COG before I put this in, I'd hate to have to add lead or shift equipment later...

Step (1) Weigh aeroplane. UH OH!!![X(] While I did add up the following numbers, being my first 2x2 ship, I didn't put 2 and 2 together and didn't realise the problem I had on my hands until this point. After all I had just bought a brand new Oxai.

Empty weights
Fuse 1193g
Bellypan 185g
Stabs 247g
Wing 936g
Landing gear 104g
Spats 42g
Total = 2707g !! Within spec? You can make up your own minds.

To cut a very long story short, after over 6 months of e-mails backwards and forwards between myself, the distributer in Australia and Roger in China my final options were very limited and none of them were very satisfactory. Out of the two options I took the one that saw some AUD come back into my wallet instead of me shelling out even more. Sombody made the decision at the factory to send this overweight factory second my way and they couldn't care less. So much for buying a professional quality F3A plane.

Lesson 1: This is my first and last Oxai product and they will never get another penny from me.


To be Continued..
YS DZ 170cdi the "The Good the Bad and the Ugly", or should that just be "A Fistful of Dollars" more.

Jason Arnold

2.7Kg is a little porky. I fly a Krill Spark and it's components weigh in at 2.42Kg. That includes all wheels, axles, hardware, spinner etc.

Time to be very selective on your gear and have a dremel party...

Cheers,
Jason.

Rendegade

BJR, has anyone pulled the scales out on you yet?

What if you just conveniently "forgot"?

papaone

Hello Bjr 93

I understand your desapointment but I think there is no problem with flights if plane is heavier but equiped with CDI.
Note than you can put a smaller tank because CDI needs less fuel.
My personal design plane with CDI is about 5100 g empty and 5750 g with full tank (I kept same tank as my previous DZ). I don't feel the difference in flight (so may be I'm not a great pilot).
Go on to build this plane. Sure you will be happy with.
Claude

wagen017

Lucky you didn't consider going electric.....

All that apart, do you plan to go fly the Worlds any time soon? If not, put the plane together and go enjoy yourself. I think that is the aim of the whole concept anyway.

It is a great flying airplane.

Volkert

Jason Arnold

Hi Volkert,

I think the main issue is that he paid top dollar for an OXAI expecting to receive a quality, lightweight product in exchange. Obviously what was received turned out to be less than expected. Perhaps that's should be more than expected.... []

I think it's fair to expect to get what you paid for. This is important considering OXAI quotes the weight as being 2450 for the glow version...

Cheers,
Jason.

wagen017

hey Jason, you are right about that. I understand. I just find it such a waist of all the aggrevation. I prefer to enjoy life!

Anyway, I don't think this is over yet. The title also mentions a broken down YS, so there is more I guess..

Volkert

Jason Arnold

Hi Volkert,

Yes it's a waste alright.. It's silly to think that a heavy model can be passed on and nobody would notice or care. If it was sold as a 2.7Kg model at a discount then that's a different story.

The only thing I can say about the YS is "Y Suffer"... I see the frustration suffered by YS users at most comps.

Cheers,
Jason.

bjr_93tz

Hi All,

While trying to sort out the weight issue with the distributer and manufacturer I did complete the plane and have since taken two wins from the two comps in which I entered with it. The first comp (and win in my class) being a state championships with less than 30 flights on the setup. Completing the assembly was delayed as much as possible as at the time I may have been required to return the airframe.

I've had a lot of trouble letting this weight issue drop as I did not order a $700 ARF pattern wannabe, but ordered and paid for a professional quality F3A ship from a supposedly reputable manufacture. Search this forum or google the rest of the world, you won't find bigger numbers than mine. I placed my order on the 13th of January 2010 and it arrived 3 months later on the 13th of April. I was advised of the delay prior to placing the order as this was part of the January production run and was not stock sitting on a shelf.

I've tried to give all parties involved every opportunity to resolve this and like I said, after 6 months the two final options on the table were not satsfactory.

With the above being said, I'm now letting go of the issue and getting on with enjoying the plane and getting some flying in......Hang on, is there something about a busted up DZ170cdi in the title bar???? So much for getting some flying in.

Regards, Brett Richards.

TBC....

Jason Arnold

Hey BJR_93tz,

What's your real name?

Cheers,
Jason.

bjr_93tz

YS DZ 170cdi the "Good the Bad and the Ugly", or should that just be "A Fistful of Dollars" more.

26 July 2010, Six flights after the QLD State champs...

Despite the ongoing issues with the weight, the QLD champs came and went and I was happy with my results. The mighty YS had dragged the Oxai anchor around the sky for the judges at the comp, and to the delight of my two nephews (2yo and 3yo), the day after. However the strain had been all two much and the rear bearing decided that it was time to give up it's day job, with the YS grinding to a halt in the starting gates 6 flights after the comp. After pulling it down and ordering some bits from Central Hobbies, I considered the number of flights (about 60 in total), the date of purchase and thought I would try a warranty claim. A positive reply from the retailer and although I had the parts in hand (Central has good shipping) and it meant missing a comp, I accepted YS's offer and I shipped my box of bits back to YS in Japan.


26 August 2010, motor returned and everything back on track for the Nats in January. Thumbs up to YS for honouring their warranty.


13 November 2010, Everything running good as expected, entered local comp did OK, Time to prep for Nats in 6 weeks.

Step (1): Convert plane to 2.4GHz. No problem, Pattern at the Nats was the only "2.4GHz only" event so shell out for a TM-14 module and R6008HS RX. Have I mentioned the problems I've had with the Futaba 14MZ yet? No, Because I've never had a problem with any of my Futaba gear.

Step (2): Shed lots of weight and try to make 5050g. After much time wasting, I arrived at the point where I realised it was impossible to make 5050g with the cdi installed, and I didn't buy a 170cdi to put a glow plug in it so the cdi stayed. I probably could have made it with a carbon prop and spinner but I needed the weight up front. Don't forget, the overweight airframe is ALL behind the COG. New lightweight power system and 2.4Ghz seems to be working well.


December 2010, The month I would like to forget.

Third flight of the afternoon and the mighty YS developed a case of the flu from which it has never recovered. A couple of coughs and then silence, the first deadstick ever. I couldn't get any sense out of the engine on the ground so I packed up for the afternoon. The rest of the month was then spent pulling the pump apart, fiddling with the needle and regulator, tuning on the ground then deadsticking in the air in 3-4 minutes later. I reverted back to my old power system to isolate that but to no resolve. This was an engine that had never given me any problems until now. It was either CDI or Fuel pump and I didn't have a new one of either to test. With the Nats only a few weeks away and being out of town for a week on work things weren't looking good.


Jan 2011, the Nats came and went.

After wrecking my Christmas and New year holidays trying to sort this YS out AND missing the Nationals (only 100km down the road) I had isolated the problems down to the fuel pump. Thus began my quest to obtain a warranty repair on this engine for the second time. Despite questionable pump life on the DZ170cdi being a known issue with YS, YS have chosen to ignore my request for their "assistance or advice on the matter" and also ignore a request made by the retailer on my behalf. I have given YS one month to respond since their return from holidays and haven't heard anything. I have now had to order parts of the same faulty design to repair this engine.

This engine runs like a train when everything is working right and doesn't run when some part on it fails, it has real reliability issues that aren't the fault of the user and YS knows about it. I wonder how much profit there is in never selling me another YS product??

Lesson (2) See Oxai above, this is my first and last YS product and they will never get another penny from me.

To be continued..
My thoughts on dropping $6.5K into top quality F3A equipment and after 12 months, being left with an handful of good servos, an overweight Oxai Aries 07 and a broken down YS DZ170cdi that's only seen 2 comps and done less than 200 flights.

jim woodward

bjr_93tz,

I believe you'll find that every person that buys a product with a certain and deserved expectation is sympathetic to your case. For the money, you should expect a very high quality from Oxai - and especially for it to be underweight. My Axiome weighs 10 lbs 14 oz with a non-CDI YS 170 setup. If I were to use CDI, I would need to go back and reduce weight of other equipment selections. While the flight quality, longevity, and "finish" quality of the Oxai are very high, I do not believe you'll find many people claiming they are the "lightest" planes in the world. In fact, most I've heard of are anywhere from 10.5 to 11.0 lbs in glow.

If you are close to making weight with the CDI installed - such that you could have made it with a prop and spinner change, then I think you are basically in the range of most other Oxai owners, but perhaps on the high side. Again, I've not read where Oxai owners are making huge low-weight claims. Now the actual manufacturer claims are another thing. They should reflect actual weights.

For your YS troubles - I hope you are able to work them out. Most people are not reporting bearing problems, although you'll find several posts or threads regardin pump issues. If the bearing goes that could be a sign of running lean.

Again - I'm sure everyone sympathizes with your effort to buy the finest equipment you can and not be happy with it for any reasons. Let us know if you reach a resolution.
Thanks,
Jim W.

jgg215

Jim,
Out of curiosity, did your Axiome arrive on your doorstep at or below the advertised weight of 2500 grams?
John

jim woodward

John - I did not weigh the plane until all was completed. I looked at it like this - I bought it, I plan ot use it, I'm going to use certain equipment, it will weight what it weighs. My hope (as well as anyone's else who buys something) is that the manufacturer did a good job. From memory, the 1-piece wing RTF with full size aileron servos is 2 lbs 3 oz.
Thanks,
Jim

- FWIW - at 10 lbs 14 oz (4932g), and 25 oz of fuel, plane still flies very light and is capable of a very slow overall presentation, including point rolls. The Snap opposite 4/8 and Snap opposite 4 pt can practically float through the subsequent point rolling elements. Jim

wagen017

Brett, out of curiosity, what exact weight did you end up with and how did you exactly kit the plane? What materials used.

There is a big difference between 5100grams and 5350 or something similar.

Volkert

bjr_93tz

Thanks Jim, I reasonably expected the plane would have come out at 4.95-5.0kg with cdi given the advertised weight, bear in mind that Oxai models aren't thick on the ground in my club, expectations were based on weights others had posted on the 'net. In an ideal world a non-cdi 160-170 powered Aries should be flying at about 4.75kg.

Volkert, the final weight was a shifting value as my power system was always going to be a work in progress, however I could not make 5050g with lightweight leads, R6008HS 2.4Ghz RX and a 10A regulator with a 450mAh 2S lipo feeding BOTH rx and ignition. Yes it would do one schedule but you wouldn't want to stay up too long. All other equipment was esentially "recommended" stuff K&S fuel tank, aluminium fuel lines, go-model control horns, recommended Futaba servos. I was not going to replace $500-$1K worth of new servos to drop 2 ounces. The plumbing in the engine bay is minimal as I know how heavy silicon tubing is. With a lot of work and a lot more $$'s you could get in under 5050g but in all honesty, it would be a flying accident looking for a place to happen and that's not a risk I'm prepared to take. It's probably back to about 5.3kg now.

I've baged my own DLG's and know full well that to save 20 grams, first find 20 places to save 1 gram. The secondary issue is that the COG of the bare airframe is behind the COG of the finished airframe, I need the CDI, battery and APC prop to balance, otherwise I have to relocate the gear from where it's designed to go. You can't simply compensate for excess weight behind the COG by removing weight from in front of it.

Just like it seems in the US, nobody checks the weight in Australia and I suspect that is one of the main reasons why this particular airframe was sent here. Oxai would have known from the time it sent the wood to the laser cutter's that this was going to be a heavy plane. Perhaps like balsa, Oxai should advertise "competition" versions of their planes at one price and flog off the "sport" versions like mine at a more reasonable price.

I've probbably been a bit harsh on YS as it has been a great motor and YS did look after me first time around, but the timing and nature of the second problem really got to me. It's not every day the Nats are so close. I probably could have taken a firm "No" from YS on the chin but to be completely ignored under the circumstances, that's cost them any respect I did have for them. Forcing me to buy parts that I'm sure are going to fail just as quickly isn't helping their case either.

I suppose anyone starting out in the sport can take away from this that buying the big name equipment doesn't mean your going to get quality, value, or good service if/when you have a problem with it....

M.Kimbro

My Feedback: (5)

bjr 93tz,

What is the actually weight of the airplane?  All you have told us is that you have been trying to get the plane down to a weight of 5050g.  Above in your post #1 you have all of your weights listed, keep in mind that Oxai advertised weights do not include the landing gear and wheel pants, because they are not included in the price of the airplane.  So your bare airframe weighs 2561g, and the Oxai advertised weight is 2450g. The weight of your plane is within 5% of the advertised weight.  With a weight of 2561g it is very easy to make weight under 5000g. 

Also the Aries 07 was not designed with the CDI in mind.  This plane was designed before the CDI was available.

The reason for the problem with the rear bearing going out in your YS is because it is a bearing, one little nick in a race or on a ball, the bearing will not last long.  About as long as you found out, 60 or so flights.  The problem with your pump on your CDI engine is that the pump was designed for a standard glow engine.  A standard glow engine burns between 16 and 20 oz. of fuel a contest flight.  The CDI engine burns between 8 and 12 oz. of fuel a contest flight.  The  CDI engine doesn't draw near the fuel amount through the pump as the standard glow engine does, both engines make the same heat, but the CDI pump will run hotter than the glow pump due to the lack of fuel drawn through it. So you end up with the pump not lasting. 

It is very hard to get a airplane under weight at a reasonable price and to keep it running flawless. Those are the two most frustrating things about the hobby of pattern.

Matt Kimbro

flyf3a

Hi bjr 93tz

Sorry to hear about the weight problem with your plane. It is true that Oxai might not be the lightest planes but I have purchased over ten planes from Oxai over the past few years and never had any weight problems (with the planes that is). Had to purchase some very expensive and light alternate parts but knew that from the outset, i.e with my Amethyst (see previous posts). I just recently bought the Asuyler EP and the kit was actually lighter than the stated weight (2267 grams against 2350 grams on the web page). The landing gears are not listed as part of the weight on their web page and is the one item where a significant amount of weight can be saved. (147 grams landing gear and spats). I have always found the factory (Roger) very helpful and in the past they have even offered to exchange a plane with a new different model if the customer was not happy. For one of our pilots they actually send a new wing (no charge) when he was not happy with the dihedral on the wing he received. Hope you manage to resolve your problem. For very bad experience there are luckly a few good ones as well.

Regards
Burt

bjr_93tz

Hi Matt, I really don't know what the plane weighs now. Half the engine is in the plane the other half is sitting in a box and I have a 1000mAh Ni-cd 4 cell pack on the RX and 800mAh 4 cell Ni-cd pack on the CDI and have replaced most of the extension leads back to heavy duty type. Obviously it's a heavy power system but I needed to confirm that I was getting a solid 4.8V to the CDI and that the RX wasn't dropping into low voltage failsafe or any other wierd electrical thing wasn't giving me grief.

What I am sure about is I managed to get to 5070g-5080g by replacing all my leads with light duty type, including a 4-wire system to the elevator servo's and running the whole plane AND cdi off a single 2S 450mAh li-po and 10A regulator. There were only 5 reasonable options left to reduce the weight further,

(1) Remove the cdi (see COG issue)
(2) Run a lighter carbon prop (see COG issue)
(3) Replace the servos recomended by the manufacturer with lighter ones
(4) Cut the pilot out
(5) Cut lots of holes in the belly pan or fly without it.

If I could have magically pulled another 100g out of the plane and installation I would have, I must stress that the 5070g weight was achieved with a power system that was borderline at best. I could have dropped another 3-4g by taking the case of the RX and another 10 grams by using nylon screws to hold the landing gear on, TRUST ME I considered it....

I agree, the Aries was probably not designed with the cdi in mind, the Aries was designed for a 160-170 and a flying weight of 4.65-4.75kg. I'm sure that at least one non-cdi YS powered production Oxai Aries has achieved 10lb 4oz.

I also agree about the pump. Bypassing directly back to the intake nipple is a neat idea but probably not the best idea in terms of reliability, at idle you will get the same bit of fuel being pumped around and around in the pump getting hotter and hotter.

Bearing failures can and do happen, 60 flights and a warranty repair I can live with that, gave YS a thumbs up for it as well. Fuel pump failure, common problem too on the 170cdi, what other non-obvious damage has occured as a result? YS have shown what level of customer support they are prepared to provide and it's not good enough given the problems with their product, so I won't buy another.

wagen017

one question that comes to mind of all of this is how as a pattern flyer can you best manage such a situation?

Can we, as pattern community, ask the manufacturer to garantee the weight of individual parts (within reason, 5%?). Or that each kit comes with a stated weight? If the plane does not meet that weight you should be able to send back the plane and receive a good one?

I at least learn a lesson from this. The next plane I will ask the vendor for a component list with weights and then measure when I receive the kit. Since these are expensive planes I don't think this is unreasonable to ask for.

Volkert

bjr_93tz

Hi Volkert, my rant is nearly coming to an end and I'm nearly ready to move on [:@]

The issue of freight costs for the Aries really crippled coming to a resolution. Living some 2000km away from the Aussie distributer I was dependant on him to make the judgement and I believe Oxai should have notified him of the weight before it even left China. By the time it arrived at my door I was essentially stuck with it. The initial position of the distributer was that he'd weighed it and it was only 42g over on his calibrated scales, the University's calibrated scales in our measurements laboratories said it more like 111g over so the issue wasn't detected at his end prior to dispatch.

I sent an e-mail to the Aussie distributer outlining my concerns and cc'd it to Roger from Oxai, who very quickly (and unexpectedly) made a very generous offer. I thanked Roger for that, however it was made clear by the distributer that Roger had not considered all the details of the offer and Roger was not to be cc'd in to any further communications. I was not privy to the correspondence between the Aussie distributer and Roger, however the final options presented to me were not satisfactory.

If I could have walked into a shop with a set of scales and weighed a half dozen Aries 07's and selected the best on like I do with my balsa and chose this one then I'd only have myself to blame. Given Oxai's perceived reputation for quality control, this plane should never have been sold to a full paying customer. It should have been made available on loan to an up and coming kid as a sponsorship or something, as it's certainly more than good enough for that.

texzen1

No need to worry i dont think....i see folks out there competing with there 12.5 lb electrics at every contest....the 11lb rule will go the way side....chatted with someone on the AMA rule committee...they reviewing it now...(most likely is 12.5 lbs limit ( and GP will be weighed with flight fuel on board) or an electric weigh in less power plant batteries.....the 11 lb rule made it a 4000 dollar sport to competitively enter...which is far from their intent.... your coming in overweight with a 170 cdi...go electric with batteries for a power plant and it will weight 1.54 lbs more. not grams....

bjr_93tz

Well it looks like I'm not the only one to be just about fed up with the mighty YS. While my first preference would be to try and gas myself with the YS exhaust fumes (if only it would run that long), the Oxai pilot decided to take matters into his own hands and do himself in. [X(]

Honestly if I hadn't gotten most of my frustrations out in the earlier posts I would be just about jumping on my plane right about now, but at least now I can see a bit of humour in this. While I was worried about a deadstick at the wrong time forcing an out landing and ripping my wheels out, seems like the YS was content to just shake the living daylights out of my plane for a while, then stop...

Anyway, to cut a long story short. A new pump was fitted, engine tuned, three flights a big thumbs up. The next day it ran like a hairy goat and I didn't even bother to try and take off. A couple more trips to the field and back, then fitted a new CDI and put up two flights yesterday afternoon before the pilots head fell off, but at least the engine was running fairly well. I could put up with the "miss" every few seconds from about 3/4 throttle on, because at least the engine was runnning and it wasn't cooking itself.

I'm now confident to strip the motor and rebuild it and it "should" run properly, I have been very reluctant to put new bearings, rings gaskets and seals into the motor while it's had problems. So I had at least two faults hit me at the same time, pump failure and cdi failure.

Price up the parts alone, and it's nothing short of disgracefull how much this engine has cost to run for the work that it's done. Then throw in the number of trips to the flying field over the last 3-4 months trying to sort this out and any reasonable person should be able to understand why I'm really upset with YS ignoring not just my e-mail but an e-mail from the place where I purchased it. Once I'm 100% happy that I've got this engine back up to speed I will be writing a no-holds barred, snail-mail letter to YS Japan telling them exactly what I think of their product and their customer support.

Anyway, time to develop some "ship in a bottle" skills and glue this guys head back on. Anyone have any glue suggestions like sikaflex or would 5min epoxy be ok???

flywilly

My Feedback: (121)

If you can drill a hole through the bottom of the pilot you might be able to manipulate the head back into place. You might have to glue something to the bottom of the pilot's head first to pull it back into the correct location (without being cock-eyed). I think it can be done without having to cut into the canopy, but it will probably take a bit of patience and a few Fosters .
Good Luck!
PS - once the head is in place I would use 5 minute epoxy or maybe thick CA

Rendegade

Jesus Brett! It's a calamity of errors with that Aries! Damn shame too, Pattern shouldn't have to be that hard!


In regards to your headless horseman, I had a similar problem (and this adds weight so brace yourself) is to manevure the head so you can jam one of these into it, (with the bolt screwed into it, I used an M4 nylon bolt for weight reasons) and crank the head back down onto the body with the bolt.