dabrown

Our club has a no gasoline engine rule that starts in June and ends after the first real rain, usually November. We're in the Sacramento, CA area and the grass around our flying field definitely gets highly flammable during the summer. Although other clubs in the area don't restrict gassers, it's a deal the club made with the farmer who owns the land.

So, here's a dumb question. Has anyone ever heard of any kind of fuel additive to reduce chance of fire occurring in a crash. Or a fire suppression system. Or whatever.

BTW, the only fire incidents we've seen have been with electrics...but that's not the issue...

Dave

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Yeah...NASA's got one they tested back in the mid 80's....

dabrown

Yeah, I do remember that. It wasn't too successful...

Dave

jetmech05

I have never seen a gasser crash then burn....turbines, yes electrics, yes.....I think you need to go back to the farmer and see if you can't work something out.....I'd be more afraid of someone smoking while fueling a gasser

krayzc-RCU

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wow just when i thought glow engires were out of fashion

All Day Dan

My Feedback: (5)

I have been flying in the Los Angeles area since 1963 at every field I could fly at. There has never been a fire started by a nitro or gas engine at any of them. At the present time I use two of them and turbine powered models have been banned at both. Electric powered planes are being watched closely because of a number of fires they have started. A third field as about to ban turbine models. Dan.

spaceworm

Gasoline mixed with oil for two strokes is less flammable than "pure" gasoline. How much less I don't know. Maybe someone does? Anyway, is this taken into consideration when banning gasoline engines at your field? Maybe the "corrupted" by ethanol gasolne is less flammable? Does anyone know?

You could install a fire suppression system on your airplane, or you could guarantee you won't crash and burn.

Turbines fueled with kerosene also burn, we had one "land" in a tree and it just burned and burned to a nice char as we looked on[]

Maybe arrange to have a local fire truck standby while you fly your gassers.

Of course, if the Japan disaster continues, the farmers crops will all be radioactive and worthless anyway.

Good luck

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

I know your club, and the rules there are excessively restrictive for gas engines. Fueled turbines and electrics are the primary generators of crash fires.

What makes gasoline less flammable/volatile is the 2 stroke oil added to the gas. It reduces the octane rating several points and stabilizes the gas. The odds of a gas powered plane catching a fire in a crash are not much higher than a glow engine catching fire. Essentially one needs to short out a battery lead and have fuel pouring over it. I've even seen such conditions occur without generating a fire.

Basically you have a bunch of old women that didn't like gas powered planes to begin with setting the safety rules. The brush out there is high and dry in the summer time but their resistance to change is even higher. Don't know what you're going to be able to do about that aside from electing new officers and voting on new rules.

dabrown

Yes, there is a large electric flying membership. No turbines mainly due the runway size, I assume.

My understanding is that when the folks were discussing with the farmer the possibility of flying models there, he was concerned about fires being started. A gas engine ban was offered up to ameliorate his concerns.

I like the 2-stroke oil idea. Wonder if any data exists to back it up...

Dave

spaceworm

At one of our flying fields, the farmer alternately plants soybeans and corn in the area over which we fly. I don't know what grows out there, but maybe another crop that does not dry out and burn so readilly would be an option and be more valuable to the farmer, as well, than grass. Another thought would be to keep the grass down by mowing or harvesting more often. Controlled burns may also be an option as I have seen and heard about them to reduce the effect of a fire. But likely it is a political rather than a practical issue anyway as has been said. Good luck.

Sincerely, Richard/Club SAITO #635

pe reivers

Here is a way to test it.

Take a dry Zippo lighter, and fill up with two stroke fuel. If the lighter will not work you are good to go demonstrate it.

After the experiment the wick is oil contaminated, so it must be replaced in order to work again.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

There is data but it was obtained via corporate expensing so has to remain private.

Shall we simply say that fuels containing a pre-mix oil had lower octane levels? At several grand per sample tested the company would become incensed about revealing the data.

BTW, when the club was formed the people were desparate for a flying site. It was easier to sacrifice gas engines than it was to prove their safety. Turbines are noted for starting a fire on the take off roll so their ban was logocal. The runway was a little short as well.

The larger problem for the farmer is crops knocked down by people chasing downed aircraft. The Dusters RC site in Woodburn Oregon, a premier field by any standards, is leased from an active farmer that grows a great many acres of wheat which immediately borders 2 sides of the runway. The club has been flying there since the late 80's, many of the aircraft gas powered, with more than a couple getting violently dropped into dry wheat. No fires. We do have to exercise care when retrieving models. We only want one path to and from the model. The Woodburn experiences may be an avenue for you to explore.

spaceworm

What brand of oil and what percentage?

Sincerely, Richard

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Lots of flying fields that overfly farmland. A good plan might be to consult the AMA accident/insurance fiels to review gas engine crashes that resulted in fire. Then again, with the amount of insurance coverage for a covered club and site, I don't know of too many farmers where that coverage would not easily extend to about triple the value of any given harvest.

I think the OP should go back a little deeper (the people) into the origin of his club though. The farm field thing was an excuse. The people that started the club did not like gas engines and the planes associated with them at the time. Fire was just the excuse needed to exclude gas engines.

Whistling Death

You guys better ban cigarette smoking too, that causes more fires that 2 stroke airplane motors.

dabrown

I'll have to discuss more with some of the club members. Most of the current officers are pro-gas and would like to see the ban lifted. However I believe they are hesitant to approach the farmer because he's comfortable with the ban, even if it is ill-founded. Removing the limitation would probably seem to him to be an increase in risk.

BTW, the crop is always just grass which his cattle graze on...and where the snakes live

Last year I emailed the AMA safety guy and he basically just sympathized. I didn't think about asking about insurance claims or incident reports. That could be a good idea.

Dave

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

As a former active Firefighter I can tell you that in order of things that cause fires, gas crashes would be at the bottom of the list of cigarettes, turbines, and electrical related fires (speed controller, lipo batts etc) would all rate a significantly higher fire risk.

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

I suspect this to be a trend that's going on worldwide.
With ever expanding urban areas, redidential areas are springing up closer and closer to our flying areas causing complaints over noise and other valid or non-valid reasons.
Modelers and model clubs have also been their own worst enemies because unfortunately, many clubs have turned the blind eye to behaviour by individual members that shouldn't be accepted in any club.
It's a classical example of a situation where a very small group of louts causes a bad reputation to a large group of well meaning and responsible club members.

Model Clubs (at least here in Australia) have also been particularly bad at marketing themselves as an active part of the sports and recreational activities in each town or county and have therefore tended to take second place when it comes to goodwill from the local council or the local planning authorities.
Think about golf clubs in contrast and the land they are easily awarded.

I am a member of a very small club that flies from an old abandoned Air Force airstrip. Our club has taken up the rule that we are not accepting new membership and all new members are on "invitation only" basis.
It is a harsh method but the results are that we have managed to avoid any rivalries, politics or other BS that goes on in the bigger clubs. We also have zero complaints or issues with Council.

Sadly, I think the existence of clubs and the access to the land they fly from is under threat and will have to undergo a rethink by all parties.
Whilst we here agree that gassers are no more dangerous than the glow counterparts, it carries very little weight because the perception out there is already against us and unless we do something positive and proactive to change that perception, our existence as modellers flying large gas powered models will be more and more difficult.
We also have amongst our own groups individuals who blatently ignore noise restrictions, fly over residential areas, spectators and other areas where they shouldn't be and until we make assertive moves to get this under control, we will all be in the firing line.
Anyone who has been a safety officer or a publication officer in a medium sized or large club will have experienced this first hand and also the responses from the club members they have to discipline.

jeffEE

My Feedback: (5)

having just lost our field last Oct, perhaps you should be glad to have a farmer that is willing to let you fly at all! If he says no gas, then its no gas. Now that does not mean that you cant try to educate him on the safety of gas engines. And perhaps the AMA may have some help in this area. Just telling the farmer that gas really is safe won't do much, but if you have data from a great source to back up the request, it may help. Good luck and keep us in the loop about how it turns out.

pe reivers

Not quite knowing what to say here, because the thread has taken a new course.
facts:
_ Out in the open, many clubs fly on private owned land without any contract. No regulations, no noise restrictions, no self-regulating either. This can give model airplane flight a social image we rather be without, unless we behave properly at all times.
_ In close vicinity of rural areas, or worse still, very close to houses inside the flight circle. I have seen model pilots fly directly over houses. These same persons do not consider the other inhabitants of our world as equal, ar at least just so stupid as to file complaints against them.
_ The other side of the coin is to have a flight field well regulated (without field nazis) by common sense. There just are not all that many places left where one can fly and not have regards for the other persons on this planet. These flight sites have a written operating permit, with written regulations. They also have rights of existence. The scope of the limitations and rights very much depends on the behavior of the clubs/ pilots before they entered negotiations with owners or authorities.

Eventually, all flight activity ends up under the last condition, You still can have your fun, albeit not with total freedom to misbehave. Clubs that have their members in check are better off IMHO, both for the members fun factor, and in terms of continuity.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Guys,

The Sacramento club is not overly impacted with social crowding issues. It's a case of salemanship. That's the way it was sold so that's the way it stays. The dairy farmers can be a hard breed to converse with, but having done a lot of that I can say they aren't all that bad. Just recognize they are always tired and approach accordingly.

The AMA will be quite difficult to obtain information from if my past experiences with them are any indication. You'll have to pull teeth every inch of the way. I'd start with the flying site assistance group and plan to immediately move up the food chain if you run into resistance. You probably will.

As for the cows, there have been a great many studies that illustrate how farm animals, and imported Australian pests like Ostrich, quickly adjust to flights over head and the related noise if its done on a frequent basis. So perform the due diligence and make the presentation. Offer something up if you want to get something. Quid pro quo always helps.

pdm52956

My Feedback: (1)

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

HAHAHA .... you mean our Emu?
Not an animal not exactly renown for its intelligence!
But .... they run fast

aussiesteve

Georgia Jets did a survey on causes of fires a couple of years ago. Maybe e-mail them and ask if they still have the results. (the link I have isn't working but their home page is [link]http://www.georgiajets.org[/link]

Heres a couple of other links with some numbers that might help you take some facts with you if you wish to negotiate.

[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6524222/anchors_6524674/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#6524674[/link]

[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6266155/anchors_6266155/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#6266155[/link]

A couple of closed cup flash point tests won't cost a huge amount to get some real information. Do them on Glow fuel and 2 stroke fuel, you may be surprised at the results.

Of course, regardless of the motive power, I would be worried if the plane being flown over a high fire risk area had any form of LiPo on board for any reason - they are by far the biggest risk in a lawn dart incident.

Emus may have small IQ's but they taste good, make good oil (not for 2 strokes though) and great leather (especially when worn on a super model - which may or may not affect the taste).

EJJK

Gasoline flash point -50*F
Methanol flash point +50*F
Motor oil flash point +450*F

The above numbers are approximations, but are in the ball park. This is a serious subject. The flash point is the lowest temperature at which vapors coming off a liquid can be ignited by an external ignition source. Most flying is conducted during the summer months when the ambient temperature is normally above 50*F. That being said, methanol (glow fuel) can also be a fire hazard during this period. Below 50*F methanol is no longer ignitable. I have flown for many years and have seen many crashes, but I've never seen a fire resulting from a gasoline or glow powered aircraft. I have however, seen fires coming from electric powered models. I fly glow, gas, and electric. The above figures may be helpful if again discussing your problem with the property owner.

EJJK