rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

So tell me, is this a kit?

I think pretty much all of us would agree that it is.

Jim

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

So, if the airplane shown in post 72 is a kit, then what about the one shown below. They are the same except the factory glued in the formers and inlets. Is this still a kit?

Jim

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

What about this one, it's the same as the previous post, except the factory also filled the seams with putty, sanded the exterior and painted it. There's still lots of building/assembling to do. Is it still a kit or is it now an ARF?

It's sold as an ARF.

Jim

rambler53

My Feedback: (494)

I'm not much into Jet configurations but if I saw this "ARF" at this level, it's an ARF to me. Even where you say kit a couple posts above, that's still an ARF.
A kit involves:
wax paper on top of plans,
sticks, sheets of balsa with laser or die cut (best are the ones just outlined with ink in the old school days) pieces you remove,
and glue each rib, stringer, spar, plank, etc...into position and so on.
You can bash a kit. You can plan how the engine is going in, side, 45 upright, inverted.
You can plan where each servo is going to be and how much you want to add or subtract from the original plan to suit your style of flying. You can add to your control surface or take away, choose what covering you want, fully sheeted, filled and sanded, or Monokote, or Silk.
Your finish on your ARF has been started for you. The plane is built saving you hours or days of planning and construction work.
This ARF is way ahead of those steps.
You don't have to plan much, but yes, it's not fully developed like other ARFs approaching the "RTF" threshold, making the kit builder even more unique and having fun that the over-anxious never get to experience and enjoy.
Nothing wrong with ARFs, but you eliminate a big area of the hobby and you don't develop any kit building skills, just ARF skills.
It comes down to limitations.
Space for building?
Time for building?
Lack of patience for kit building perhaps?
Lack of interest in learning new skills?
You can control all of these limitations by being motivated and having a desire to do it. Otherwise, just get an ARF or RTF, and enjoy the "hobby" almost instantly.

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

So (at least for jets) if the difference between a kit and an ARF is having formers glued in and a paint job, what if the builder/assembler rips the formers out and replaces them with that person's own design? Is the person a kit-builder, ARF-basher, scratch-ARF'er? Hmmm.....

Jim

rambler53

My Feedback: (494)

You missed it. You have an ARF. Bold added for clarity. Um, you know you're in the AIRPLANE thread, right?

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

OK, so you think they are all ARF's, fair enough. Well, if a kit involves wax paper on top of plans, sticks, and sheets of balsa. Well, what if you build using composites. Let's subsitute carbon fibre strips for sticks, and fibreglass cloth for balsa or plywood and we'll use epoxy resin for glue. Can't it possibly be a kit even though it doesn't have wood in it?

What if I hot wired a foam wing core and sheeted it with balsa. Surely that is kit building, or plans building. What if someone hot-wires the cores for me and puts it in a box. OMG, it's a kit. What if instead of applying balsa to the airfoil-shaped core, I layed a piece of wax paper over the top/bottom piece cut from the core, and put a layer of fiberglass to form a molded wing skin. Must I now apply a layer of balsa-wood for it to be a kit? I hope not. So I make a top and bottom wing skin and glue them together at the leading and trailing edge. Shame on me, I've just made a wing for an ARF, at least according to you!!!!

Jim

rambler53

My Feedback: (494)

I made several more points you conveniently omitted to twist the facts. Please, go to the Jet thread and start a post there if you want to discuss jet construction. It's quite clear with airplanes. The box description is designated as a kit, or ARF for us simple folk. It's not according to me. I just read the box. Thanks.

rambler53

My Feedback: (494)

No, that's scratch building unless of course the core came in a kit. It's never an ARF in our airplane world. Lanier died a few years ago, never saw that nonsense since.
Is it really almost 2am EST? Talk about time limitations! Time to open up a new kit and watch the sun come up in 4 hours...so relaxing, I don't need to sleep.

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

Hey dude, I'm dealing with your "points" (as you call them) a few at a time. I'm not twisting twisting the facts. I also haven't missed a thing, but you might have. Here's my point.....

There can be a really fine line between a kit and an ARF.

What exactly defines that line is up to each person to decide. I've been building kits (as opening a box, gluing sticks and ribs, and formers, and planks together, sanding, sealing, and covering) for about 30 years now. Along the way, I started building jets. Years ago they were all kits (like the first few photos I posted except they had foam wing cores which you may have had to sheet yourself) and they took the better part of 6 months to put together.

However, to listen to your apparent bold-faced-type point of view, when I started working with composites, I turned in my credentials as a kit builder. I'm crushed. I never would have done it if I'd known that one day I'd face your ire.

Jim

rambler53

My Feedback: (494)

You west coast guys need male hormone therapy or something? Is it the heat or altitude?
Stop wearing women's tight clothing, drink lots of water, and stop changing your font size when you lose a humorous debate. It just makes it ridiculous to take it personally. You have an opinion and I had an opinion. If you thought it was a fine line, you could have saved yourself lots of typing. Instead, your rash your doctor said would go away, seems to have returned and that's what's really bothering you? Lighten up!
You're in the wrong thread jet man, we obviously have fun over here in airplane land. If you take it any other way, then deactivate your membership and just be a whiner at your club, OK?

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

Oh my, so you "just read the box". I guess you don't have a mind of your own, only opinions. Well, check out this link for a [link=http://www.bvmjets.com/Pages/kits/s_bandit.htm]BVM Super Bandit KIT[/link] . The link and the box it arrives in says KIT, so I guess it's a kit. As opposed to a [link=http://www.bvmjets.com/Pages/kits/bandit_arf.htm]BVM Bandit ARF[/link]

The point was that it is a construction technique. You can't just hang your hat on whether it's got balsa in it.

As for posting something about jets in the Airplane section, there are jet powered airplanes, you know. The next time you're outside and hear a loud noise, look up. You might be surprised.

Jim

P.S. It may be 2am EST, but it's a lot earlier than that here and I'm having a great time.

rambler53

My Feedback: (494)

At first I thought the 63 in your ID was age or date of birth, but now I see it's IQ.

rambler53

My Feedback: (494)

Sure I do, it just doesn't agree with your mind, and you wanted to challenge it, so I made it clear the box agrees with me.

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

I don't believe I've lost the debate at all. I increased the font size to help you read. You know, like in childrens' books. I also haven't taken anything (including your insults since I look at the source) personally.

You came in here and spouted your opinion, I shot it down, you responded with a series of personal attacks and now you claim I'm whining. My my, it's past 2am where you live and clearly you're up way past your bedtime.

Jim

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

Hurray for you, an inanimate object agrees with you. What if the box says neither ARF or kit? What if it says "Kit" or "ARF" but it's written in Chinese and you can't understand it. Whatever will you do then to solve your confusion? OMG, I'm dying to hear your opinion on that!

Oh crap, I bought a TOP LOAD ONLY. Where's my kit, I mean my ARF, whatever. LOL

Jim

RCKen

My Feedback: (9)

Ok guys, time to slip the discussion into neutral and stop the bickering. I've just had to remove a chunk of posts because a few people couldn't discuss the issue without getting "emotional" about it and attacking each other. This needs to stop now. This can be discussed without attacking those that you don't agree with. And if there are members that don't know how to discuss without attacking somebody else, then I will have a nice little suprise for them.

Let's all take a breath and calm down now.

Ken

Michel

Hi

Wow ,.......... do I ever know what Ken,s talking about . Here I am at the field , with my finished , KIT " at the field . took months to build . And beside me , is a fellow member ( and good friend ) , with his finished , "ARF " , which looks better . And he say,s , " I just finished building it " Here,s what I do , first , I shut my mouth , they are only words . Second . I look at my friends new bird , and say something like , " absolutly beatuiful " , because it is .

The words , " assemble " and " build " , have no refference for me any more . I need my friends and fellow members

Here,s another question ,................... why are people so brave to speak out in a form ?

Michel

Stickbuilder

Some of us do it in person as well. Ask the guy who brought the Waco ARF to Top Gun.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

Boomerang1

Are ARF's kits? No.

Does it matter to me? No.

I fly scratch built, kits, ARF's and a Habu EDF jet that took 10 minutes to 'build'.

It's all modelling to me, it's all fun. - John.

summerwind

boy this is scary.......a Jet flyer who doesn't even realize where he is posting...............see this is the kind or arrogance i referred too earlier on.
there is the type where i fly who makem bigbad WW2 ARF and flyem with Bigbad 2 stroke gassum motor...........meaning "me the big chief on the fliteline.........no talk to me unless i want to talkem to you" ARF's bring a certain element to hobby who think they are the big deal because they have the most expensive ARF's.

sensei

Arguing over this is so childish guys; we are all in this for what each one of us is getting from the part of this hobby/sport we enjoy. Some of us like to move forward with all the advancements and some like to stay in the past as illustrated in this thread. Some like to build and others just like to fly. For those that like to build, it is a great hobby, and for those that like to just fly, it is a great sport. There are good and bad builders and good and bad ARFs, it really doesn’t matter, we all spend our money and take our pick. As I have stated before, these forums in large are for folks to learn from, especially the new guys and threads like this add no benefit to the hobby, in fact, all they really tend to do is divides us. I have also been building since the time when there weren’t any ARFs, and I still build today, but I have also purchased, assembled/built/modified, and flow enough ARFs to see the added benefit of them, and the advancements they have gone through over the years…

Bob

scale only 4 me

My Feedback: (158)

From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kit

An ARF is a Kit,,, I win,, You can go ahead and close the thread now Ken

warbird addict

hob·by 1 (hb)
n. pl. hob·bies
An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.


by technical definition building and flying arfs is not a "sport" it's a hobby every bit as much as building and flying a kit is

InboundLZ

My Feedback: (10)

"a jet flyer does not even know where he is posting"....now if that is not the most ignorant statement of all. Frankly I am amazed at the bold, self righteous attitude of some of the people on this thread. "Little Man" complex used to be handled with a Corvett or a big pickup truck, now it looks like wearing the "I'm a kit builder" T-shirt is the popular choice among little men.

I happen to know that "jet flyer" and I will put his work up against anyones and not think twice about it.