jackripped

SO the Tamia Frog doesnt cut it ?

oorr poor froggy !

ntrain42

I'll mention a few things here.

A. Yeah, Ive seen that pic of the cracked chassis rail. In reality, though, thats the exception, not the rule. Thats a rarity without question. I will also mention that the cracked chassis rail is off an older LST platform which uses an inferior composite. The new LST's composite plastic is much stronger. Also to note, the new Losi composites take well to boiling water now in allowing more flex without breaking.

B. Your right, Losi "almost" got it perfect with the "box" designand I agree that the 3 piece underside under certain circumstances potentially can allow for what was pictured to happen. But there is already a simple fix. The NE roll bar and front skideliminates that potential by bracing the front bumper/bulkhead and bulkhead to main chassis plate/railstowards the rear/center of the chassis eliminating the potential. Also, NE is coming out with a single full lengthpan style skid plate which will replace all 3 of the current skids in the design. Why it was never done before is beyond me. Regardless though, the pic shown shows an LST that has quite a few hours of absolute abuse on it. A fresh out of the box truck it is not, even the aluminum skids are worn down to the point that the thickness has been cut in half at some points.

C. As for the Savage's suspension being upgraded, sure it can be done, but no matter the money spent, its COG/roll center and wheelbase/track geometry just arent as good. And to get it even somewhat close your going to spend some serious cash, which brings me to my point about the Losi LST being a superior design from the drawing board. Instead of upgrading a design shortcoming, Id rather put that money into other items on the truck(likeservos,pipes,rubber,springs,fluids etc)And as for the "BP diffs" and dogbones, they are still a few notches below the Losi's stock units, and I have seen alot of posts where drivetrain parts are still breaking with regularity on the newer Savage models now out.

If I decided to buy a 3rd MT, it would still be another LST XXL. Or possibly a nitro Revo(though I am still looking into the platform)as thats the main competition I face on Sunday racing.

HPI_Savage_RC

Well, I've seen failures of the rails and skid plates happen a few times actually. These are all pictures I found on this forum:







I don't know when Losi upgraded the composite material, but I haven't seen a picture of broken rails for a while, so perhaps they coincide.

A couple of the trucks pictured above with broken chassis parts appeared to have been running the NE roll bar at the time of impact, so evidently the bracing effect on the front end of the truck isn't sufficient to completely eliminate the possibility of failure.

The NE full skid plate should take care of the issue though. A friend of mine who owned an LST2 a couple years ago wanted me to build him a full center skid plate from 7075-T6 aluminum, which would brace the chassis and completely protect the servos and drivetrain. I didn't get around to it, but I'm amazed that it hasn't been done by an aftermarket manufacturer.

The LST's suspension geometry is no doubt superior from the drawing board, but remember that the Savage wasn't built with handling in mind, but rather maximum durability. In that respect, I think it is still the champion of the MT world. I've bashed with Losi, AE, and Traxxas MTs, and the Savage is always the last truck standing.

Upgrading it to race requires big bucks however, so if track time is a consideration for your purchase, I wouldn't even take a second look at it. The Revo and LST are no doubt the kings of that realm.

I think you give the LST drivetrain a bit more credit than it deserves. It is definitely durable in my experience, but it does suffer from some very significant shortcomings. AFAIK the LST still uses plastic diff cups (Though apparently the XXL comes with steel spider gear blocks) with small ring/pinion gear teeth, and the brittle outdrive pins have been a problem for many. Several people have had transmission issues, though those may be reduced now that Losi eliminated the stupid Hi/Low selector on the XXL transmission. The CVDs are well build and are definitely a strong point on the truck.

The new Savage BP diffs OTOH are nearly indestructible, and I've yet to see anyone manage to break the massive ring/pinion teeth, even with 6s brushless power. The cups are aluminum and the spider gears are supported by steel blocks, making the whole assembly very solid and durable. The new super HD dogbones have proven to be very tough as well; some people have managed to bend them doing insane jumping, but no significant issues there. A couple Flux owners have managed to snap outdrive cups in half when landing jumps with the throttle on, but when the motor puts out such an insane amount of torque, something is going to act as the weak link.

For massive power applications, I'd definitely take the Savage Flux drivetrain over the LST's.

If I were going to buy another MT, it would definitely be an LST XXL. Diversity is a good thing, and bias aside, it's probably the best built MT out of the box.

ntrain42

What thread did these pics come from? Direct link?


Few things I will point out on it.

A. New Era roll bar was used on top, but those are stock skids on the bottom. If the NE skid was put on the bottom this most likely would not have happened since the NE skids completely wrap the bottom and front bumper assembly. The front bulkhead assembly was pushed up. It either happened by way of an extreme impact with the stock plastic bumper assembly in some form(bad landing/impact with hard immovable oject), or the shocktower was clipped up topat serious speed from the looks of it.

B. This is the older LST/LST2 platform. Different plastic composite altogether. The older LST's use more what I liken to "Tamiya plastics" which are known to not flex well and strip screws out easily, and this pic proves the point. Again this is a much older truck/generation than whats currently been available the last few years with the XXL.

C. Drivetrain: The current LST's cvd's and center driveshafts are still the best without question. Harder grade steel, thicker etc. Transmission itself has also been proven to be bullitproof with less rotating mass. The diffs on the LST use a dual housing. Inner housing is your right plastic(again though its the new composite)with as you mentioned the same steel blocks while the outer housing is aluminum. My XXL racer uses aftermarket modified aluminum diff cups, and my basher which gets much more use and abuse uses the stock plastic diff cups with the steel inserts and its just as durable. The XXL's ring/pinion and spider gears though again are using a higher/harder grade steel. When correctly shimmed(this is 100% key)they will last quite a long time. The only real upgrade needed to be done are the outdrive cups which can be had for less than 20 bucks. Using the HD outdrives(made of the same material as the center drives and cvd's)the LST's drivetrain is pretty much bullitproof. The new BL Savage's diffs might be a bit bigger and use aluminum diff cups, the but the gears themselves are made of a softer metal. I have seen alot of cases with broken/shaved teeth, and there are still transmission problems on top of that. Its much better than it used to be without question, but I'm still going to put it a step below the Losi's drivetrain in stock form durability minus the outdrive cups(of the LST).


Anyway, good enjoyable debate. Thanks for keeping it fun and classy regardless of how you viewmy opinions! Most people can't holda discussion like this without taking it as a personal attackthereby turning it into a childish flamefest.

mkruse

ntrain42

Fresh out of the box, I actually agree with this. But with a NE roll bar AND skids, then its pretty much a wash in terms of chassis integrity.

steed2-inactive

so to sum it all up...you have to modify a lst xxl to be as strong as a stock savage..? basically what your saying right?

cummins driver

My Feedback: (31)

Thats how i took it as well. And then you can still upgrade the savage to beefier TVP's, etc...

HPI_Savage_RC

I don't have enough experience with the XXL to give you a definite answer, but a stock (Non XL) Savage doesn't have any significant durability issues out of the box. The XL version has issues with the rear turnbuckle rod ends (Caused by the increased torque on the hub assembly from the extended axles), and that's about it.

Plastic quality was always a huge issue with pre-XXL Losi MTs, as it was extremely brittle and lacked impact toughness, but the newer composite material used to mold the XXL parts is a step above the old stuff. The only significant issue remaining is the engine brace, an upgrade for which will cost about as much as a fix for the rear turnbuckles on the XL. Chassis integrity is still questionable, but it's certainly not a major issue for most people.

For general use I'd call it a draw on the durability front. Chassis durability in stock form is very similar, as both use relatively low grade stamped aluminum plates, which are held together with a lot of plastic bracing material. The LST's drivetrain parts will last for longer between rebuilds, as the outdrives are hardened steel, while most of the Savage's drivetrain is machined from normalized steel stock. For extreme bashing I would probably still pick the Savage, since the nylon components (Bumpers, arms, shock towers, etc.) are much thicker and more resistant to impact, and the 8 shock setup seems to hold up better to lateral deflection than Losi's 4 shock setup.

One thing many people fail to consider when comparing the durability of 2 R/Cs is the likelihood of actually applying unnatural stress to components during operation. The Savage may offer greater impact toughness, but the LST is superior in terms of handling and air control, meaning you are less likely to botch a jump and put the truck in a situation where parts breakage may occur. How this factors into the ratio of runtime to downtime will depend on the user's driving style. For some, it may result in a hell of a lot less wrenching required to keep the Losi running. For me it doesn't matter much, since I tend to break any R/C within 5 minutes of picking up the transmitter.

In the end, if you drive anything like I do, I think you'll find that the truck which suffers the least downtime due to breakage is the one your LHS carries parts for.

HerrSavage

That's simply not true. "Strong" means more than just surviving a boneheaded crash and cartwheel down a hill. The only thing stronger on a Savage - and IMO only slightly so - than an LST2/XXL are the a-arms. Strength though includes durability. And when you start considering the drivetrain - diffs, cups, etc.., the Losi is much "stronger" than the Savage.

I.e., you would have to modify the Savage XL a good bit(as people have done for years with CEN diffs and all the rest..) to be as strong - if... - as the XXL.

The Savage wows newbs who see it cartwheel ten times down a hill and it keeps working. But then the poor quality starts to show after like two gallons and the diffs start going, etc..(and the tranny too, if you replace the what is by many accounts c.rap stock engine with something stronger...) MAYBE an XXL will crack an A-arm in one of those ten cartwheels. But the drivetrain and rest of the truck will hang in there for gallons and gallons with no need to worry about them..

Not even talking engines, radios, handling, etc.. either..

cummins driver

My Feedback: (31)

All the new savages come with bulletproof differentials now. You simply cant compare the old differentials to the new ones. The bulletproofs will take darn near anything and last forever. They also have aluminum spider gear housings, where as the Losi has plastic housings which are know to wear after a couple gallons and create slop. You probably would have to swap the drive cups a little more often on a savage, but that pretty darn cheap and not hard to do once every 5 gallons. If anything though, the savage ring/pinion and spiders are probably stronger than the Losi's now.

My father in law broke a shock end off his LST2 on one of his first real runs with it recently. Drove off of an elevated side walk and kind of did a lawn dart into a very small bank. He snapped the end right off of the shock rod and i couldnt believe it. I know I have done things much worse with my savage and all the shocks are straight and not leaking. Now, im not saying he couldnt have hit it just right that maybe anything would have broke, but at this point i dont beleive the savage would have broken. He ran his savage wide open into a chain link fence because his radio lost signal, and didnt break anything. The only problems he has had with his savage were a bent engine plate. I have still yet to break anything like that on mine. The losi's in the short time we have owned them have broken a shock shaft, and my engine plate cracked. We will see how they hold up after we get some more time on them.

The losi handles better without a doubt and will sometimes save you from a wreck just because it may slide instead of flip, etc... Its really personal preference. Either truck will last a long time with proper maintenance. Just buy the one you like.

HerrSavage

My bet is his shock oil was too thin.. Savage shocks bend and break too.. With 35wt oil and RC Raven springs, I've never broken or otherwise messed up an LST2 shock in nearly four years.. I jump every chance I get too..

Same day with LST2 and Savage XSS:

LST2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us5hIGH0Dac

Savage:

http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u...l509_0001.mp4]

More LST2:

http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ST2BashDay.mp4

http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u...nterJumpin.mp4



Maybe Savage diffs are better now than they used to be, but the c.rap quality cups is still a PIA. I would rather have to change out an LST2 arm in the middle of a field somewhere - if I ever had to, which I never have - than have to pull a whole diff and replace a cup or brake cam on the Savage..

Point is - both trucks have their places. But to say the Savage is "stronger" than the LST2/XXL is simply false.

The Savage rides largely on an image of being cool or whatever. It's like an old muscle car - cool image, but face it, useless as a race car compared to a Porsche for ex.. Not to say I wouldn't love to have a classic SS Chevelle 454 - I absolutely would. But the Porsche is simply the superior car. IMO the analogy also applies to any discussion comparing a Savage to an LST2 or XXL. I'd have a Savage - I like the challenge of driving them hard and keeping them upright. It's a challenge - and I like that.. The challenge of keeping my last Savage in running order I didn't like.. OR of my 2nd LST2 - being fair.. I had to learn the hard way that the LST2 2-speed just doesn't work if you try to truggify your truck.. Works fine with the big stock wheels or Savage XL wheels(ha ha...) But I had a lot of stress trying to get my track LST2 to run reliably, all down to the 2-speed. With stock tires or the Terra Pins, no problems.. My first LST2 - the basher - is the best, most reliable, tough, low-hassle, high quality RC product I have ever had.

Anyway, out of the box, no mods, I would say the two trucks - XXL and Savage XL - are maybe equally "tough"/"strong", when you understand that that term means more than just surviving cartwheels.

HerrSavage

Dang - I miss my Muggy...

[]

jbooker82

My Feedback: (4)

Yea but you can see a diff drive cup wearing. If you chose to replace it after it totally breaks that is just poor maintainance. I havent ever replaced a drive cup due to it being worn out. Only when I upgraded to the HD flux / xl axles. If you keep them lubed properly then you dont have any problems. I also wouldnt compair MT's to race cars. Cause they all suck the big one compaired to a truggy or buggie. So if you want a racer then your totally looking at the wrong class of rc's. A monster truck it big, tough, and clumsy.

HerrSavage

That's right - they're not racers. But a Losi XXL and Savage XL are made for the same purpose, and therein lies the analogy. In overall running it's like comparing a Porsche to a muscle car racing..

And I mean, if your cup and brake cam looks like this after two-ish gallons, you're talking p.iss-poor quality. No if's, and's, or but's..:





This is from an LST2 , after MUCH MORE than two gallons(I think it was probably like 4-5 at that point - maybe more.. Been a while, so I'm trying not to overstate it..:



Muggy - same parts as LST2 - after like eight gallons(including wiht a Novarossi 528, LRP Spec 3, etc..):

HPI_Savage_RC

Just want to clarify that this is not a fair comparison of material quality. The stock Savage runs very steep center dogbone/cup angles, which means the position of the dogbone pin in the cup is constantly changing, causing the metal surfaces to slide over each other several thousand times per minute. The LST runs parallel center shafts, and the suspension is set up out of the box to keep the outer CVDs nearly level with the ground. As a result, the Losi truck will experience much less cup joint wear.

Running a full LCG chassis on a Savage will almost completely eliminate cup wear, despite the fact that the steel is not hardened. I have a set of HPI center cups with 10+ gallons running IRC and TT LCG TVPs, and they look just like your LST pictures.

Still though, it's a Losi design advantage, since HPI should have went with a full transmission drop rather than the half ass setup they came up with when they brought in the X TVPs.

HerrSavage

When did you go and become civil? Ha ha.. JK.. Good points..

Though cup-wear was merely one of several areas of overall poor quality with my XSS.. Plastic was atrocious too.. I know some people don't want to believe me, and I'm not saying it to be argumentative, but I really did break at least two bumpers(well, not break, but the screw came out, stripping the c.rappy quality plastic it went into..) a couple times just carrying the truck.. And yes, I did break a C-hub landing a wheelie once... Broke several C-hubs over the time I had the truck.. The very first day I took the truck out, I baby jumped it off my ramp into soft grass, just to practice lining up.. Max 2 1/2 feet in the air, at maybe 1/3 throttle. And here was the result:



Brand new truck..

Anyway, I'm not trying to insult Savage people. I'd have one again if I thought the plastic quality had improved since the first X-gen days.. I'm just saying, all the simplistic "The Savage is the toughest truck in the world" talk is simply not the case. It's a good truck for certain uses and certain budgets. But IMHO the LST2/XXL is just as tough, in addition to having a fairly long list of other clear advantages over the Savage.

In the end, unfortunately it doesn't matter all that much. Most people in RC these days are hunched over their workbenches drilling their buggy shock pistons or trying to figure out how to add 12 seconds of run time to a tank or whatever.. Uptight racing has supplanted MT bashing.. So if anything we should stop arguing about brands and just start focussing on bashing more..

And NO electrics!!..

[:'(]

ntrain42

Modify? No. Add a couple of parts, yes.

ntrain42

Bullitproof, no, better though Ill agree. The big prob with the current "upgraded" Savage diffs is they are still using a soft steel. Too many of the new diffs regularly strip the gears still. I stillsee it on a weekly basis here.

Again, Ive seen ALL platforms break parts, as you said, you can hit something just right and you will end up with a broken part. All in all, I still consider both platforms a wash in terms of overall durability.

ntrain42

And LST big and clumsy? Definetly not. Last week at RCE I ended up racing my LST XXL in the truggy class since there weren't enough MT's available for a full field. I actually finished 4th out of a field of 24(21 truggies, 3 MT's)which isnt too shabby since I have a few obvious disadvantages. But the LST is basically an oversized monster truggy. Its alot more agile than given credit for. Gotta remember too just a few short years ago the LST was probably the best MT racer until people started switching to the Revo's, and even now the LST still holds its own, especially if the track features large jumps/track imperfections.

cummins driver

My Feedback: (31)

I only say bulletproof because that is whay HPI calles them. haha Obviously anything can break, but the new differentials are extremely tough. Maybe the diff's you see breaking are the old ones? The new ones have extremely little problems even on 6s in a flux. It will take a nitro forever to kill them if the instant torque of a flux on 6s takes a long time. The only way they could be regularly stripping those gears is if they are using junk bearings in the diff case or something like that. Im not sure what grade of steel it is, but it is machined and not cast. You can tell by looking at it

HPI_Savage_RC

Well said, luckily around here the racing scene isn't very big at the moment, and a lot of guys are still into bashing.

You know, the funny thing about that picture is I just snapped 2 adjustable upper arms yesterday on the same jump. They failed at the stainless steel turnbuckle connection and not the plastic, but it still wasn't a very big jump or a hard landing. Stuff just happens sometimes I suppose.

The plastic quality on the X generation trucks is not as good as the previous stuff, as HPI did change the plastic formula to a slightly lower density material. Out of the box it's still flexible enough to fold in half in a vice without splitting, and I haven't had any more issues with the X parts I'm running (Shock towers, skids, bumpers, bumper mounts, hubs/knuckles, diff housings) than I did with the original parts. The newest knuckle/hub design (Updated in 2008 or so) is actually quite a bit stronger than the 21/25 parts, as they have added a substantial amount of bracing to the stressed areas. I haven't managed to break one yet, which is surprising even to me.

Are the ring/pinion gears actually stripping, or are the internal spider gears failing? I've only seen one broken BP pinion gear online to date, and that was from a Flux running 6s with (I think) a slipper clutch eliminator.

The new ring/pinion gears are machined from a pretty good grade of steel, but the internal gears are much smaller and made using a sintering process, so they are of course still prone to breakage under extreme power conditions.

richardtf

Just buy both truck!

Dmon1996

One thing that has not been touched in this thread is parts availability. I know that my local hobby shop carries more Savage parts than XXL parts, but has the essential parts for both on hand. The greatest truck in the world will break or you are not using it right! And this thread was started about getting a nitro truck for BASHING, by defenition running rough and looking for durability. The XXL is an excellent truck, best choice if running a course or precision control is needed. The Savage is very robust and built most durable of all the RC MT's. Add in if the local hobby shop has a good stock of a-arms and drive shafts, shock towers, etc and decide from that. Neither truck is worth sh** if you are waiting a month for a replacement part!

HPI_Savage_RC

Well said. In the end, if your decision comes down to the Savage VS the LST, buy the one with better local parts support.