Just bought a nice LST2!
06-18-2011, 05:47 AM
#151
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lowell,
MA
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: cummins driver
I was going to replace the 2 speed clutch, but it looked ok as well as the "bell" it rides in. I knew the engine clutch was getting a little worn, and i had a replacement, so I stuck it on. After running it, im sure that was the problem. Slipper pads are ok, but that is locked anyways.
I really like aluminum shoes myself. Im sure teflon wont wear the clutch bell, but as long as you dont let an aluminum clutch get down into the spring , and you sand the bell lightly every so often, it will last long enough that it wont be a problem. I feel the aluminum shoes will deal with the heat better as well as provide better bite. You should be able to get a very smooth engagement out of an aluminum clutch. They will just require a different weight of spring than a teflon clutch.
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
So you replaced the motor clutch,I thought you were replacing the clutch in the 2 speed clutch for some reason. Check the slipper pads and 2 speed clutchas well. when those are worn they can cause erratic shifting/engagement as well.
One thing I stopped using for all my engines are aluminum shoes. I only run carbon shoes for my race vehicle and teflon for the bashers. Teflons will last almost as long as aluminum shoes as well.Smoother engagement, and no wear and tear on the clutchbell to boot. Coupled with a fast throttle servo and you don't lose any of your launch ability.
So you replaced the motor clutch,I thought you were replacing the clutch in the 2 speed clutch for some reason. Check the slipper pads and 2 speed clutchas well. when those are worn they can cause erratic shifting/engagement as well.
One thing I stopped using for all my engines are aluminum shoes. I only run carbon shoes for my race vehicle and teflon for the bashers. Teflons will last almost as long as aluminum shoes as well.Smoother engagement, and no wear and tear on the clutchbell to boot. Coupled with a fast throttle servo and you don't lose any of your launch ability.
I really like aluminum shoes myself. Im sure teflon wont wear the clutch bell, but as long as you dont let an aluminum clutch get down into the spring , and you sand the bell lightly every so often, it will last long enough that it wont be a problem. I feel the aluminum shoes will deal with the heat better as well as provide better bite. You should be able to get a very smooth engagement out of an aluminum clutch. They will just require a different weight of spring than a teflon clutch.
Carbon shoes do wear out fast. Mine only last for 2 weekend racing sessions before they wear and lose their proper grip, but they also engage the quickest and do it smoothly.
For all out bashing though I prefer teflon shoes with lightweight.9clutch springs and the HD slipper pads for the LST. A winning combo.
06-18-2011, 09:57 AM
#152
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (31)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Danville,
KY
Posts: 4,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Teflon shoes actually are better with heat and they have more consistent engagement characteristics with varying temps. Plus they have a lower rotational mass. They don't last quite as long as aluminum shoes, but its close. Since I use threaded clutchbells, I prefer for them to last a long time, if dirt and debris get inside the clutchbell, normally its the teflon shoes that get hit with some scoring(preferred)vs. both the shoes and clutchbell.
Carbon shoes do wear out fast. Mine only last for 2 weekend racing sessions before they wear and lose their proper grip, but they also engage the quickest and do it smoothly.
For all out bashing though I prefer teflon shoes with lightweight .9 clutch springs and the HD slipper pads for the LST. A winning combo.
Teflon shoes actually are better with heat and they have more consistent engagement characteristics with varying temps. Plus they have a lower rotational mass. They don't last quite as long as aluminum shoes, but its close. Since I use threaded clutchbells, I prefer for them to last a long time, if dirt and debris get inside the clutchbell, normally its the teflon shoes that get hit with some scoring(preferred)vs. both the shoes and clutchbell.
Carbon shoes do wear out fast. Mine only last for 2 weekend racing sessions before they wear and lose their proper grip, but they also engage the quickest and do it smoothly.
For all out bashing though I prefer teflon shoes with lightweight .9 clutch springs and the HD slipper pads for the LST. A winning combo.
Personally the only advantage i can see is not wearing out the clutch bell. The aluminum shoes are just as cheap, last longer, and provide a more positive engagement. I do not see a teflon shoe handling heat better than aluminum. As for rotational mass, the difference would be so small you would never notice anything. All this sounds great in theory, but out in the real world, aluminum clutch shoes are the real performers.
06-18-2011, 10:57 AM
#153
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lowell,
MA
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: cummins driver
Personally the only advantage i can see is not wearing out the clutch bell. The aluminum shoes are just as cheap, last longer, and provide a more positive engagement. I do not see a teflon shoe handling heat better than aluminum. As for rotational mass, the difference would be so small you would never notice anything. All this sounds great in theory, but out in the real world, aluminum clutch shoes are the real performers.
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Teflon shoes actually are better with heat and they have more consistent engagement characteristics with varying temps. Plus they have alower rotational mass. They don't last quite as long as aluminum shoes, but its close. Since I use threaded clutchbells, I prefer for them to last a long time, if dirt and debris get inside the clutchbell, normally its the teflon shoes that get hit with some scoring(preferred)vs. both the shoes and clutchbell.
Carbon shoes do wear out fast. Mine only last for 2 weekend racing sessions before they wear and lose their proper grip, but they also engage the quickest and do it smoothly.
For all out bashing though I prefer teflon shoes with lightweight.9clutch springs and the HD slipper pads for the LST. A winning combo.
Teflon shoes actually are better with heat and they have more consistent engagement characteristics with varying temps. Plus they have alower rotational mass. They don't last quite as long as aluminum shoes, but its close. Since I use threaded clutchbells, I prefer for them to last a long time, if dirt and debris get inside the clutchbell, normally its the teflon shoes that get hit with some scoring(preferred)vs. both the shoes and clutchbell.
Carbon shoes do wear out fast. Mine only last for 2 weekend racing sessions before they wear and lose their proper grip, but they also engage the quickest and do it smoothly.
For all out bashing though I prefer teflon shoes with lightweight.9clutch springs and the HD slipper pads for the LST. A winning combo.
Personally the only advantage i can see is not wearing out the clutch bell. The aluminum shoes are just as cheap, last longer, and provide a more positive engagement. I do not see a teflon shoe handling heat better than aluminum. As for rotational mass, the difference would be so small you would never notice anything. All this sounds great in theory, but out in the real world, aluminum clutch shoes are the real performers.
Since teflon is an insulator, it does not absorb or transfer heat, this is actually a positive thing. In a clutchbell this is a benefit. I did all kinds of aluminum shoes of differing hardness, and none of them grab with the same consistency over the course of running a nitro vehicle during the day as teflon shoes. By going to teflon I havent lost anything in terms of engagement power(And since I use a much quicker throttle servo over stock, I can lock up the clutch instantly and wheelie the vehicle on command). But I have gained a smoother engagement that is alot more consistent over the life of the shoes and dont worry about worn or scoring clutchbells. Myself personally, Ill never go back to aluminum shoes.
06-19-2011, 06:19 AM
#154
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (31)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Danville,
KY
Posts: 4,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
Good for you.
However, I love my aluminum shoes and ill be sticking with them. I have tried teflon and they just really arent as durable in the long run, and dont hook up as well either.
However, I love my aluminum shoes and ill be sticking with them. I have tried teflon and they just really arent as durable in the long run, and dont hook up as well either.
06-20-2011, 04:32 AM
#155
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lowell,
MA
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: cummins driver
Good for you. However, I love my aluminum shoes and ill be sticking with them. I have tried teflon and they just really arent as durable in the long run, and dont hook up as well either.
Good for you.
However, I love my aluminum shoes and ill be sticking with them. I have tried teflon and they just really arent as durable in the long run, and dont hook up as well either.
06-20-2011, 05:05 AM
#156
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (31)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Danville,
KY
Posts: 4,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
If they don't ''hook up'' as well, its probably due to the springs your using. Teflon shoes need a much lighter spring. Another thing to consider is how your setting your slipper, or how you use your truck even. For your pulling sessions, I actually agree with aluminum shoes for pulling, but for bashing I still think teflon is as good or better under normal circumstances. A big key though is making sure you use a LIGHT clutch spring. But you've mentioned that you also crank down your slipper all the way for bashing even. By doing that, your making the clutch itself a slipper. Under that condition Im sure they arent as durable and wear faster, but if you're properly setting the slipper clutch and using the correct weight spring, they will last almost as long and have just as good bite. Just gotta remember that there is more than one factor involved on how shoes perform when setting up your clutch and slipper.
If they don't ''hook up'' as well, its probably due to the springs your using. Teflon shoes need a much lighter spring. Another thing to consider is how your setting your slipper, or how you use your truck even. For your pulling sessions, I actually agree with aluminum shoes for pulling, but for bashing I still think teflon is as good or better under normal circumstances. A big key though is making sure you use a LIGHT clutch spring. But you've mentioned that you also crank down your slipper all the way for bashing even. By doing that, your making the clutch itself a slipper. Under that condition Im sure they arent as durable and wear faster, but if you're properly setting the slipper clutch and using the correct weight spring, they will last almost as long and have just as good bite. Just gotta remember that there is more than one factor involved on how shoes perform when setting up your clutch and slipper.
The clutch should not act as a slipper even with the slipper cranked down. The clutch should be hooked up good enough not to slip just because of some imperfections in the ground. The only reason i see a need for a slipper is for people who land jumps wide open. Imperfections in the ground are not going to hurt anything with a locked slipper, and neither will jumping as long as you dont land hard on the throttle. I could possibly see using a slipper on a race truck, but even then, throttle control is a better option.
06-20-2011, 05:15 AM
#157
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Houston,
TX
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
I agree cummins. Aluminum shoes and tighten the slipper all the way down.
Springs only determine engagement RPM and should not be slipping.
Some people however do like to setup combination aluminum/plastic, and even use different sized springs to tweak their clutch.
To each their own with this one though.
*
Springs only determine engagement RPM and should not be slipping.
Some people however do like to setup combination aluminum/plastic, and even use different sized springs to tweak their clutch.
To each their own with this one though.
*
06-20-2011, 06:29 AM
#158
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lowell,
MA
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: cummins driver
The springs were matched to the shoes, so no problem with the springs. Also, as the guy on rctech mentioned, the ears that slide onto the pins will tear through or break eventually. Never will have that issue with an aluminum clutch. My teflon clutch did that in about 2 gallons.
The clutch should not act as a slipper even with the slipper cranked down. The clutch should be hooked up good enough not to slip just because of some imperfections in the ground. The only reason i see a need for a slipper is for people who land jumps wide open. Imperfections in the ground are not going to hurt anything with a locked slipper, and neither will jumping as long as you dont land hard on the throttle. I could possibly see using a slipper on a race truck, but even then, throttle control is a better option.
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
If they don't ''hook up'' as well, its probably due to the springs your using. Teflon shoes need a much lighter spring. Another thing to consider is how your setting your slipper, or how you use your truck even. For your pulling sessions, I actually agree with aluminum shoes for pulling, but for bashing I still think teflon is as good or better under normal circumstances. A big key though ismaking sure you use a LIGHT clutch spring.But you've mentioned that you also crank down your slipper all the way for bashing even. By doing that, your making the clutch itself a slipper. Under that condition Im sure they arent as durable and wear faster, but if you're properly setting the slipper clutch and using the correct weight spring, they will last almost as long and have just as good bite. Just gotta remember that there is more than one factor involved on how shoes perform when setting up your clutch and slipper.
If they don't ''hook up'' as well, its probably due to the springs your using. Teflon shoes need a much lighter spring. Another thing to consider is how your setting your slipper, or how you use your truck even. For your pulling sessions, I actually agree with aluminum shoes for pulling, but for bashing I still think teflon is as good or better under normal circumstances. A big key though ismaking sure you use a LIGHT clutch spring.But you've mentioned that you also crank down your slipper all the way for bashing even. By doing that, your making the clutch itself a slipper. Under that condition Im sure they arent as durable and wear faster, but if you're properly setting the slipper clutch and using the correct weight spring, they will last almost as long and have just as good bite. Just gotta remember that there is more than one factor involved on how shoes perform when setting up your clutch and slipper.
The clutch should not act as a slipper even with the slipper cranked down. The clutch should be hooked up good enough not to slip just because of some imperfections in the ground. The only reason i see a need for a slipper is for people who land jumps wide open. Imperfections in the ground are not going to hurt anything with a locked slipper, and neither will jumping as long as you dont land hard on the throttle. I could possibly see using a slipper on a race truck, but even then, throttle control is a better option.
Regardless if your the type who will not run a slipper, then yeah probably in your case aluminum shoes are better, but regardless all that excessive torque has to go somewhere, and it will be directed through the drivetrain and right at the clutchbell and shoes, and they will/do slip. There is no right or wrong way to do it if itworks for your style, I just prefer to keep things like the slipper in the loop for long term protection. There are ways to have a properly functioning slipper inline without worrying or having excessive slipping. For myself that means using teflon shoes with .8 springs and a HD slipper pad(which will not slip dueto the pad surface material and courseness in all but the worst of jolts)about a turn out on the LST. I get about 3-4 gallons of use out of teflon shoes doing that without any excessive slip or loss of hard accelerationand my driveline is still fully protected in the process from sudden jolts from drivetrain speed.
06-20-2011, 06:49 AM
#159
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Houston,
TX
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
*
06-20-2011, 06:58 AM
#160
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lowell,
MA
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: whipnet
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
06-21-2011, 03:10 PM
#161
Senior Member
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
No your right, the clutch shouldn't act like a slipper, but if someone locks down the slipper all the way, then your forcing the issue and making the clutch act like one, no matter how careful you are with the throttle. The slipper is the go between, between the drivetrain and clutch and compensates for differences in the drivetrain rpm's.
ORIGINAL: whipnet
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
06-22-2011, 07:02 AM
#162
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lowell,
MA
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: supertib
so you can get the stock 454 to run so violently on carbon shoes that it actually needs a wheely bar in a XXL ?
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
No your right, the clutch shouldn't act like a slipper, but if someone locks down the slipper all the way, then your forcing the issue and making the clutch act like one, no matter how careful you are with the throttle. The slipper is the go between, between the drivetrain and clutch and compensates for differences in the drivetrain rpm's.
ORIGINAL: whipnet
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
06-22-2011, 07:11 AM
#163
Senior Member
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Thats where running the correct weight clutch springs come into play.
ORIGINAL: supertib
so you can get the stock 454 to run so violently on carbon shoes that it actually needs a wheely bar in a XXL ?
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
No your right, the clutch shouldn't act like a slipper, but if someone locks down the slipper all the way, then your forcing the issue and making the clutch act like one, no matter how careful you are with the throttle. The slipper is the go between, between the drivetrain and clutch and compensates for differences in the drivetrain rpm's.
ORIGINAL: whipnet
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
not really a lighter shoe has less clamping force then a heavier shoe....clutch spring is for engagement RPM...clutch spring does not affect clamping force...that is 100% the weight of the shoe !
06-22-2011, 07:25 AM
#164
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lowell,
MA
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: supertib
not really a lighter shoe has less clamping force then a heavier shoe....clutch spring is for engagement RPM...clutch spring does not affect clamping force...that is 100% the weight of the shoe !
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Thats where running the correct weightclutch springs come into play.
ORIGINAL: supertib
so you can get the stock 454 to run so violently on carbon shoes that it actually needs a wheely bar in a XXL ?
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
No your right, the clutch shouldn't act like a slipper, but if someone locks down the slipper all the way, then your forcing the issue and making the clutch act like one, no matter how careful you are with the throttle. The slipper is the go between, between the drivetrain and clutch and compensates for differences in the drivetrain rpm's.
ORIGINAL: whipnet
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
not really a lighter shoe has less clamping force then a heavier shoe....clutch spring is for engagement RPM...clutch spring does not affect clamping force...that is 100% the weight of the shoe !
I use a .85 spring with my teflon and carbon shoes, and the engagement point and clamping pressureis roughly the same as a typical aluminum shoe with a 1.0 weight shoe spring.
06-22-2011, 09:34 AM
#165
Senior Member
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Of course it does, the lighter the spring, the less centrifigal force is needed for the shoe to lock to the bell. The spring affects both engagement point and locking pressure simultaneously. A lighter shoe needs a lighter spring. If your using a really heavy spring with a carbon or teflon shoe, I dont doubt you can melt em since those springs are holding the shoes to the shaft to the point where the engines rpm's are exceedingly high so when the shoes finally do engage the clutchbell, the heat and friction are astronomically high.
I use a .85 spring with my teflon and carbon shoes, and the engagement point and clamping pressure is roughly the same as a typical aluminum shoe with a 1.0 weight shoe spring.
ORIGINAL: supertib
not really a lighter shoe has less clamping force then a heavier shoe....clutch spring is for engagement RPM...clutch spring does not affect clamping force...that is 100% the weight of the shoe !
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Thats where running the correct weight clutch springs come into play.
ORIGINAL: supertib
so you can get the stock 454 to run so violently on carbon shoes that it actually needs a wheely bar in a XXL ?
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
No your right, the clutch shouldn't act like a slipper, but if someone locks down the slipper all the way, then your forcing the issue and making the clutch act like one, no matter how careful you are with the throttle. The slipper is the go between, between the drivetrain and clutch and compensates for differences in the drivetrain rpm's.
ORIGINAL: whipnet
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
not really a lighter shoe has less clamping force then a heavier shoe....clutch spring is for engagement RPM...clutch spring does not affect clamping force...that is 100% the weight of the shoe !
I use a .85 spring with my teflon and carbon shoes, and the engagement point and clamping pressure is roughly the same as a typical aluminum shoe with a 1.0 weight shoe spring.
you are wrong there...once the engine is moving, the springs have almost zero effect on clamping power...... do the math and you will see that...the centrifugal forces of the shoe are many many times more then the spring weight.. at 25000 RPM the spring tension becomes meaningless !.. Springs set engagement, weight determines clamping force......
06-22-2011, 10:12 AM
#166
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lowell,
MA
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: supertib
you are wrong there...once the engine is moving, the springs have almost zero effect on clamping power...... do the math and you will see that...the centrifugal forces of the shoe are many many times more then the spring weight.. at 25000 RPM the spring tension becomes meaningless !.. Springs set engagement, weight determines clamping force......
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Of course it does, the lighter the spring, the less centrifigal force is needed for the shoe to lock to the bell. The spring affects both engagement point and locking pressure simultaneously. A lighter shoe needs a lighter spring. If your using a really heavy spring with a carbon or teflon shoe, I dont doubt you can melt em since those springs are holding the shoes to the shaft to the point where the engines rpm's are exceedingly high so when the shoes finally do engage the clutchbell, the heat and friction are astronomically high.
I use a .85 spring with my teflon and carbon shoes, and the engagement point and clamping pressureis roughly the same as a typical aluminum shoe with a 1.0 weight shoe spring.
ORIGINAL: supertib
not really a lighter shoe has less clamping force then a heavier shoe....clutch spring is for engagement RPM...clutch spring does not affect clamping force...that is 100% the weight of the shoe !
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Thats where running the correct weightclutch springs come into play.
ORIGINAL: supertib
so you can get the stock 454 to run so violently on carbon shoes that it actually needs a wheely bar in a XXL ?
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
No your right, the clutch shouldn't act like a slipper, but if someone locks down the slipper all the way, then your forcing the issue and making the clutch act like one, no matter how careful you are with the throttle. The slipper is the go between, between the drivetrain and clutch and compensates for differences in the drivetrain rpm's.
ORIGINAL: whipnet
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
not really a lighter shoe has less clamping force then a heavier shoe....clutch spring is for engagement RPM...clutch spring does not affect clamping force...that is 100% the weight of the shoe !
I use a .85 spring with my teflon and carbon shoes, and the engagement point and clamping pressureis roughly the same as a typical aluminum shoe with a 1.0 weight shoe spring.
you are wrong there...once the engine is moving, the springs have almost zero effect on clamping power...... do the math and you will see that...the centrifugal forces of the shoe are many many times more then the spring weight.. at 25000 RPM the spring tension becomes meaningless !.. Springs set engagement, weight determines clamping force......
Regardless of the fact, I would not be using a heavierclutch spring set withcf or teflon shoes, not needed and it willwear em out(or melt em as you say)excessively.
06-22-2011, 10:21 AM
#167
Senior Member
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Your missing the point, if your having a lighter shoe engage at a higher rpm due to heavier spring weight, the extra rpms are going to cause more friction from higher turns with more chance to ''melt'' the shoes. Of course at a certain rpm the springs tension become meaningless since the centrifigal force overcomes the tension, but when your engine is operating at a much lower rpm(your not always spinning at or near 25k)off idle the lighter spring will play a role for the engagement point and the clamping power at that said point. An aluminumm shoe and say a 1.0 clutch spring can have roughly the same engagement point and clamping force as say a .9 spring and a lighter teflon or cf shoe.
Regardless of the fact, I would not be using a heavier clutch spring set with cf or teflon shoes, not needed and it will wear em out(or melt em as you say) excessively.
ORIGINAL: supertib
you are wrong there...once the engine is moving, the springs have almost zero effect on clamping power...... do the math and you will see that...the centrifugal forces of the shoe are many many times more then the spring weight.. at 25000 RPM the spring tension becomes meaningless !.. Springs set engagement, weight determines clamping force......
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Of course it does, the lighter the spring, the less centrifigal force is needed for the shoe to lock to the bell. The spring affects both engagement point and locking pressure simultaneously. A lighter shoe needs a lighter spring. If your using a really heavy spring with a carbon or teflon shoe, I dont doubt you can melt em since those springs are holding the shoes to the shaft to the point where the engines rpm's are exceedingly high so when the shoes finally do engage the clutchbell, the heat and friction are astronomically high.
I use a .85 spring with my teflon and carbon shoes, and the engagement point and clamping pressure is roughly the same as a typical aluminum shoe with a 1.0 weight shoe spring.
ORIGINAL: supertib
not really a lighter shoe has less clamping force then a heavier shoe....clutch spring is for engagement RPM...clutch spring does not affect clamping force...that is 100% the weight of the shoe !
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Thats where running the correct weight clutch springs come into play.
ORIGINAL: supertib
so you can get the stock 454 to run so violently on carbon shoes that it actually needs a wheely bar in a XXL ?
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
No your right, the clutch shouldn't act like a slipper, but if someone locks down the slipper all the way, then your forcing the issue and making the clutch act like one, no matter how careful you are with the throttle. The slipper is the go between, between the drivetrain and clutch and compensates for differences in the drivetrain rpm's.
ORIGINAL: whipnet
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
It really should not work like a slipper, you're not supposed to match your tire speed with ground speed. You're supposed to be off throttle when you land which would mean your clutch can spin freely. Starting from a dead stop is much more wear on your clutch than landing a vehicle from a jump.
*
I agree about rotating mass, but the weight of your clutch shoes directly affects the clamping power of the clutch...the lighter the shoe, the less clamping force it has............On my of my modified engines we are forced to run extra heavy shoes, as the lighter shoes just slip and melt.........
not really a lighter shoe has less clamping force then a heavier shoe....clutch spring is for engagement RPM...clutch spring does not affect clamping force...that is 100% the weight of the shoe !
I use a .85 spring with my teflon and carbon shoes, and the engagement point and clamping pressure is roughly the same as a typical aluminum shoe with a 1.0 weight shoe spring.
you are wrong there...once the engine is moving, the springs have almost zero effect on clamping power...... do the math and you will see that...the centrifugal forces of the shoe are many many times more then the spring weight.. at 25000 RPM the spring tension becomes meaningless !.. Springs set engagement, weight determines clamping force......
Regardless of the fact, I would not be using a heavier clutch spring set with cf or teflon shoes, not needed and it will wear em out(or melt em as you say) excessively.
here is my track.... were at speed all the time.....if i run carbon shoes I cannot clear the jumps and by the end of the day the shoes are destroyed..... I have tried many different clutch setups and worked with 2 different manufacturers ...... carbon are great, but they can't handle a whole pile of load without slipping......A metal shoe, with a carbon contact patch would be very good...the metal to supply the mass, the carbon to handle the contact............. I have a new clutch system I am bringing in that uses a metal shoe with a automotive grade carbon/kevlar pad material......its ultra trick, as it has a proper friction material, and enough mass to clamp............aluminum has the clamping power, but really isn't a very good clutch material..it works, but its dirty.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs5k-U-AihA
06-22-2011, 10:38 AM
#168
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lowell,
MA
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
Yeah, a cf/metal hybrid shoe would be nice. That cf patch would have to be really durable/thick though to get decent wear and tear. The other question is what the cost for a set of shoes like this would end up being, especially if they wear just as quick as regular cf shoes.
As for how quickly you burn through shoes on that track(looks like a nice facility, but the track looks a bit cookie cutter/sterile in layout)I can't comment on your driving style, modded engine, roller used etc. My comments here and experience are based off my LST's only for my track,driving style and roller.
As for how quickly you burn through shoes on that track(looks like a nice facility, but the track looks a bit cookie cutter/sterile in layout)I can't comment on your driving style, modded engine, roller used etc. My comments here and experience are based off my LST's only for my track,driving style and roller.
06-22-2011, 10:45 AM
#169
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lowell,
MA
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
The 3 tracks I race at, have alot of technical sections, full on throttle is rare, this is the one I run at mostly for nitro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICeR3KpwTDM
06-22-2011, 11:09 AM
#170
Senior Member
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
Yeah, a cf/metal hybrid shoe would be nice. That cf patch would have to be really durable/thick though to get decent wear and tear. The other question is what the cost for a set of shoes like this would end up being, especially if they wear just as quick as regular cf shoes.
As for how quickly you burn through shoes on that track(looks like a nice facility, but the track looks a bit cookie cutter/sterile in layout)I can't comment on your driving style, modded engine, roller used etc. My comments here and experience are based off my LST's only for my track,driving style and roller.
Yeah, a cf/metal hybrid shoe would be nice. That cf patch would have to be really durable/thick though to get decent wear and tear. The other question is what the cost for a set of shoes like this would end up being, especially if they wear just as quick as regular cf shoes.
As for how quickly you burn through shoes on that track(looks like a nice facility, but the track looks a bit cookie cutter/sterile in layout)I can't comment on your driving style, modded engine, roller used etc. My comments here and experience are based off my LST's only for my track,driving style and roller.
the clutch will retail for $79.00 replacement shoes are $29.00....... the lifespan has been in the 4 gallon range in race conditions...The pad material is very hard and durable...felt marker writing on the face of the pad will last a whole day of racing and still not be worn off......after 3 gallons of race use the clutch bell looks like new...most of the black anodizing is still visible......clutch is very tunable, can be made to hit like a sledgehammer, or can be tuned to apply the power buttery smooth..... interesting thing we have learned is that a smoother hitting clutch gives you a broader sweet spot in tuning the LSN/idle mixture...a heavy, hard hitting clutch requires a much richer idle mixture then a smooth progressive clutch does.... This results in a engine with a leaner idle mixture that will idle better with far less loading up.....
06-22-2011, 11:21 AM
#171
Senior Member
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
The 3 tracks I race at, have alot of technical sections, full on throttle is rare, this is the one I run at mostly for nitro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICeR3KpwTDM
The 3 tracks I race at, have alot of technical sections, full on throttle is rare, this is the one I run at mostly for nitro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICeR3KpwTDM
that is a pretty neat little track... It definitely has some good flow to it, which I think many of the smaller tracks lack.....what is the traction like ? what are average lap times on it ? Right now our design is big and open, but we just built it and were working within our weather constraints and available clay ...as it is the entire pad is built with 3'of base clay, then all the features built on top....As time goes on we will bring in more clay and be able to add more character to it.....As it is right now it is big and wide open 1200 feet of driving line and laptimes of 35 seconds for the fast guys...short courses are hitting 39's
06-27-2011, 03:35 AM
#172
Junior Member
My Feedback: (8)
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pontoon Beach, IL
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
For GODSSAKEyou two.. This guy is out bashing...having fun.. here try this..push yourself away from the keyboard,go down buy a rtr,put some fuel in it and remember what the heck this hobby is about..
Now for the whole teflon shoe thing,glad it works for you..but Ihave blown way too many slipper bearings so it gets cranked down just as he did,aluminum shoes all the way in my book so you can take your theories and throw them out the window and let this guy have some FUN and quit trying to shove your teflon shoes down his throat..
And supertib...Ihad a ofna p6 engine(yueah remember the old ofna force red head??) in a original Monster blazer(remember that vehicle?) that would eat a set of carbon shoes each tank.. so your porting is comparable to that engine?? That is a horrible way to try and compare your port work to hp/torque..ofna lx buggies have always had clutch issues and there geared properly..so please get off your high horse about your ported picco's..my 26 piccostocker and thepicco Iported eats clutches in my savage..
You two sound like a bunch of used car salesman pushing your products worse than the guinsu knives in the 80's..
Dude do what you like and have fun with your lst
Now for the whole teflon shoe thing,glad it works for you..but Ihave blown way too many slipper bearings so it gets cranked down just as he did,aluminum shoes all the way in my book so you can take your theories and throw them out the window and let this guy have some FUN and quit trying to shove your teflon shoes down his throat..
And supertib...Ihad a ofna p6 engine(yueah remember the old ofna force red head??) in a original Monster blazer(remember that vehicle?) that would eat a set of carbon shoes each tank.. so your porting is comparable to that engine?? That is a horrible way to try and compare your port work to hp/torque..ofna lx buggies have always had clutch issues and there geared properly..so please get off your high horse about your ported picco's..my 26 piccostocker and thepicco Iported eats clutches in my savage..
You two sound like a bunch of used car salesman pushing your products worse than the guinsu knives in the 80's..
Dude do what you like and have fun with your lst
06-27-2011, 06:47 AM
#173
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Lowell,
MA
Posts: 575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
ORIGINAL: supertib
that is a pretty neat little track... It definitely has some good flow to it, which I think many of the smaller tracks lack.....what is the traction like ? what are average lap times on it ? Right now our design is big and open, but we just built it and were working within our weather constraints and available clay ...as it is the entire pad is built with 3'of base clay, then all the features built on top....As time goes on we will bring in more clay and be able to add more character to it.....As it is right now it is big and wide open 1200 feet of driving line and laptimes of 35 seconds for the fast guys...short courses are hitting 39's
ORIGINAL: ntrain42
The 3 tracks I race at, have alot of technical sections, full on throttle is rare, this is the one I run at mostly for nitro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICeR3KpwTDM
The 3 tracks I race at, have alot of technical sections, full on throttle is rare, this is the one I run at mostly for nitro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICeR3KpwTDM
that is a pretty neat little track... It definitely has some good flow to it, which I think many of the smaller tracks lack.....what is the traction like ? what are average lap times on it ? Right now our design is big and open, but we just built it and were working within our weather constraints and available clay ...as it is the entire pad is built with 3'of base clay, then all the features built on top....As time goes on we will bring in more clay and be able to add more character to it.....As it is right now it is big and wide open 1200 feet of driving line and laptimes of 35 seconds for the fast guys...short courses are hitting 39's
If I could just get the turning radius on the XXL just a smidgeon tighter and drop an extra pound off the truckI could probably finish top 3 consistently.
06-27-2011, 11:03 AM
#174
Senior Member
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
our track will run 40 second laps...the really fast guys have cracked 35 second laps.......
here is some footage from yesterday...my buddy Pete running a Serpent 811T
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCXpgGsKI08
here is some footage from yesterday...my buddy Pete running a Serpent 811T
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCXpgGsKI08
06-30-2011, 04:34 AM
#175
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (31)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Danville,
KY
Posts: 4,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Just bought a nice LST2!
Alright, well the LST2 got a workout yesterday. haha
My hometown fair has an r/c truck pull and drag race every year. I had never made it, but decided i was going to go this year. So I took the LST2, and a weight bracket for pulling and thought i would see what the deal was. I was expecting it to possibly only be some little kids, or just smaller 1/10 stuff, but to my surprise there was a Savage XL there with weight hung on the front end. Believe he had the stock .36 in it.
So I got everything out and we were the only 2 competitors. We did the drag races first. Im not sure what he did or didnt do, but i out ran him pretty bad in the drag racing with the LST2. I had never done any real drag racing like that, but ill have to say it was a whole lot of fun. I wish there had been more people there to compete against. Then the pulling came around and I put the LST2 in low range and put the weight out front. We were trying it on carpet and the 40 pounds in the sled wasnt fazing us. So we moved to the grass and that proved to be a whole different story. We had very little traction. I beat him with my LST2, and I also beat him with my brushless Monster GT. Then he went back to his truck and since we had no set weight limit, he added a pound or so and managed to beat me that time. It was ok because we both got trophy's and more than our entry fee back, but I believe I would have had him at the pulling as well if we had been the same weight, or if i had been smart enough to bring my shock spacers so that the rear end wouldnt squat under load.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DymMa6tlVok
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DymMa6tlVok[/youtube]
My hometown fair has an r/c truck pull and drag race every year. I had never made it, but decided i was going to go this year. So I took the LST2, and a weight bracket for pulling and thought i would see what the deal was. I was expecting it to possibly only be some little kids, or just smaller 1/10 stuff, but to my surprise there was a Savage XL there with weight hung on the front end. Believe he had the stock .36 in it.
So I got everything out and we were the only 2 competitors. We did the drag races first. Im not sure what he did or didnt do, but i out ran him pretty bad in the drag racing with the LST2. I had never done any real drag racing like that, but ill have to say it was a whole lot of fun. I wish there had been more people there to compete against. Then the pulling came around and I put the LST2 in low range and put the weight out front. We were trying it on carpet and the 40 pounds in the sled wasnt fazing us. So we moved to the grass and that proved to be a whole different story. We had very little traction. I beat him with my LST2, and I also beat him with my brushless Monster GT. Then he went back to his truck and since we had no set weight limit, he added a pound or so and managed to beat me that time. It was ok because we both got trophy's and more than our entry fee back, but I believe I would have had him at the pulling as well if we had been the same weight, or if i had been smart enough to bring my shock spacers so that the rear end wouldnt squat under load.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DymMa6tlVok
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DymMa6tlVok[/youtube]
