still4given

First of all, we use a computer system for our scoring. The computer doesn't make any decisions. It only runs formulas based on the information that is inputted. I don't know about the races that Tom attends but at our races we have all volunteer help and it is tough to get enough people for all of the positions. We use a computer run timing system and keeps track of every single heat. At any time I can go into the program and see exactly what happened in each heat. If someone has a dispute, I am always happy to investigate. I find that there are always guys who think they should be scoring higher than they are and are always looking for someone to blame for why they are not.

It bothers me that some of us make a huge effort to put on and event and several others give up their entire day for free only to have some spoiled sport thinks that plopping down his $10 gives him the right to blast Club 40 and accuse good people of cheating. All I can say is I am glad you guys don't live in So Cal so I don't have to deal with your poor attitudes.

Blessings, Terry

tsawyer148

My Feedback: (8)

I'm a little disheartened with where this discussion is going. All of this sounds all too familiar with the hundreds of other threads that have been posted over the years concerning the other various versions of AMA racing, (422, 428, etc.) and the perpetual accusations of cheating and bad sportsmanship. The original intent of Club 40 racing was pretty much just a sport style of racing where you are not expected to pay thousands of dollars for a purpose built engine and airframe just to be competitive. Those who created the class spent alot of time promoting the racing as well as working with the model manufacturer to insure that the airframes would be inexpensive and easy to acquire, not to mention the efforts taken to make it a recognized class.

Club 40 racing, for all intents, is still pretty much in it's infancy. Technology and lack of experience make it hard to keep up with all the unforeseen items that have and will continue to occur. It is my opinion that rather than always look for fault in those trying to make these races happen, find out what you can do to help and do what you can to make it better. If you feel like your opinions are falling on deaf ears, well maybe you should try a one on one discussion and insure that you are fully aware of what is going on behind the scenes.

I will be the first to admit that I am not completely aware of the particulars of what has happened with your races in the past, but I have been in similar situations with our races, especially when it comes to not having enough help to run the race. We use the computerized scoring and timing system and theoretically it would only take 8 course workers and if it were completely necessary it could be accomplished with 6. However, there have been times we haven’t even had that many so the pilots have to jump in and help.

Tim, once again I am not fully aware of what is going on with your races, but it would almost seem that you are trying to make things a little too fancy for what resources you have available. Instead of adding to the inherent complications that you are seeing, how bout just do away with the mains, etc. Just run your heats, add up the scores and declare a winner from that. Once you get more interest and work out the kinks and get more help with the race then maybe add to the events. I know how hard it is to try and run the event and race at the same time. If it can be done without heartache and grief that’s great, but if not then I feel you should make sure you find someone that will be there for you and make sure the scoring and such is being handled. Personal experience has taught me that you won’t get much sympathy from the other racers if you try to take on too much and it affects the outcome at the end of the day.

I really hope that Club 40 continues to see a continual increase in interest, but I fear that with what I have been hearing and reading over the recent past it may just be heading for trouble. If someone feels like they must "cheat" to win a Club 40 race, that is really sad.

bleudawg

First off if you guys that don't live down here you have no idea what's going on and have no real valued opinion in this matter. Tom is right. My last race I had three 1st place finishes and one 3rd place and then had three fly offs against people that weren't even in the top 10. And then didn't even make the top 8 when I was in the top 6 after the last race. And people are cheating. There is no reason to be a lap faster flying a worse line. The only way to fix this and make everything on same playing field is to use a chalkboard/ dry erase board for scoring and regulate props to a 9*6.

Tbatt

My Feedback: (4)

Just so everyone understands what the "secret scoring program" is, it is the same program that NMPRA uses. We use the one point per cut rule option that the program supports.

The main reason I use the program is because it does save time. It keeps a database of all of the pilots so entering them in is as simple as picking their AMA number out of a list. The program also builds a matirx and assigns "lanes" which is a BIG time saver. It also adds up all of the scores and allows for these totals to be printed at any time.

The way we use the program differs only by how the race is run to conclusion. At Alabaster, David decided to do a A Main and B Main finish, which is fine, it's his race. At Birminham, we did a elimination round finish which worked but was not well received or understood by the contestants. We tried the elmination round again at RCRC and the reaction was mixed. During all of this the scoring was exactly the same. The differance was how we ended the race. Both endings were done by elimination determined by points totals after the final round. In total elimination (B'ham and RCRC), all contestants raced for a finish order and at Alabaster only the top eight raced for the finish order. Guys, nothing else was any different.

If you want to keep scores yourself or put the scores up on a board, that is fine with me. Please do! I have absolutely nothing to hide and will welcome any and all help running the races, building the matrix, assigning airplane ID and keeping score. Come on, step up and help!

If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem!

Tim

 

tsawyer148

My Feedback: (8)

Fine Bluedawg, just keep doing what you are doing then and I hope that no one else who has spent the last several years and been in your position many times tries to offer advice.

still4given

I don't have to live in the south to read people's complaints and offer some advice. I don't know why you didn't make the top 8. Maybe you lost too many tie breaker fly-offs. You will have to take that up with the CD of the event. Coming on a thread where the topic is about how to determine the overall finish order and then calling folks cheaters because they were faster than you at some past race is bad form. The time to deal with that is at the event by having the CD look over the plane and see if there are any illegal parts. Many guys spend a lot time breaking in their engines to get the very most out of them that they can. Some guys will even go so far as to buy several engines so they can pick the best of the bunch. That is not cheating, that's being competitive. There are many ways to lower your lap time. Practice is probably the most important but fine tuning the engine and getting the airframe properly trimmed is very important as well. Many guys think that the tightest possible line is the fastest but that is not always true. You spend a lot of time in the turns on a 400' course. If you are slowing you plane down too much in the turns it will appear that the other guys plane is faster than yours simply because his plane is coming out of the turn faster than yours. Don't just assume that you have the best line.

It was decided after much discussion by those of us on the Club 40 committee, not to spec a prop, but leave that up to the individual pilots. As long as the prop is readily available you can use it. Not everyone flies the same line and guys who fly tight turns often benefit from a bigger diameter, lower pitch prop where as a guy who chooses to fly a more rounded line might benefit from a smaller diameter, higher pitched prop. It's all part of racing and fine tuning your set-up to best suit your flying style.

I have no idea why you think a dry erase board is any better than a computer print out.

As I said before, I don't run mains events at our races. We fly as many rounds as the weather and/or time allows and then tally the points. If you are in the top three you win the money. Anything below that is just that, out of the money.

It's a bummer that finishing in 9th place is so much bigger a deal to you than finishing in 6th place. I can only hope that all your accusations and whining don't stop somone else from getting involved in Club 40. That would be a terrible shame.

Blessings, Terry

Tbatt

My Feedback: (4)

I appreciate any and all feedback. I want to fix the problems that we are having and if you have had the same or similar experiances, please share them with the forum.

Club 40 racing is just too much fun to let die out. We started off simple and tried to keep it that way but as the popularity increased we had to establish more and more rules and processes to keep everything under some control. Now we are in a decline because of perceptions of cheating and scoring issues. This has got to stop.

I just have a hard time believing that guys are messing with their engines to the point of getting any advantage. We do check the intake and exhaust but we do not take engines apart or do RPM test. That would get very time consuming and complicated. Engine claim rules are a pain and there is lots of opposition to a standard prop rule.

So, where do we go from here?

Tim

Tbatt

My Feedback: (4)

Terry,

I'm 100% with you!

Tim

bleudawg

I'm just simply pointing out both what I've heard from many other racers and what I've seen for myself. Regardless of the rules if we were regulated to a 9*6 prop then the guys running same rpm with a 10*6 as the guy with a 9*6 would be governed to same thrust. Let's face it the 10*6 at same rpm as 9*6 is gonna smoke a 9*6. Prop regulation and a chalkboard and nothing left to dispute. All problems solved.

Tbatt

My Feedback: (4)

The disc area of a larger prop will produce more thrust which gives you more acceleration out of the turns. Look for my prop data that I posted on this forum. I have done a lot of testing with props to understand what does and doesn't work and have shared it with everyone.

The differance in speed between a tight turn and a wide turn can be as much as 20mph and that is why you see someone blast past you on the straight. The turn radius and the prop can work together and help out but you must do your homework. Look at what the top guys are using and see if it works for you. That is exactly what I did and you know, the guy that was consistantly beating me shared the information about what he was doing and it worked for me. Now we have a even more fun! Your mileage may vary......

Hint: On cool days the 9 inch props seem to work best while on a hot day the 10 inch props might do better. The hotter the air, the thinner it is.

Tim

codbucket

My Feedback: (6)

Terry, a dry erase board is so much better than a computer simply because you can actually SEE it! In past races, they would post race results now and then, but there would be NO results posted at all toward the end of the races. Wear my shoe for a moment if you will. You are racing club 40, but at no time during the day do you have a clue as to where you stand in the points/placing. I don't mind getting beat by another pilot who just flew better than I did on a given day, but when I leave a race not knowing, or understanding what the hell just happened, well I kind of do mind that! I can only speak for myself here Terry, but it is me who is thankful that I do not live in So. Cal! Be blessed or whatever.

tsawyer148

My Feedback: (8)

Just out of curiosity are you guys printing out and using the heat cards, (prior to the heats starting)?

Tbatt

My Feedback: (4)

Yes, we print out the heat cards at the beginning of the race. During our lunch break while everyone else was relaxing I would enter the scores and print out the standings. At the end of the last round I would enter the scores and then we would go to eliminations or A Main/ B Main.

The computer was left in plain site and on the scoreing display......

tsawyer148

My Feedback: (8)

So, would it be feasable to fill out the heat cards as soon as a heat is done, enter the results and then tape or hang them somewhere that is easily visible? Would that help and be a viable alternative to a dry erase board? It wouldn't take any more manpower or time and you wouldn't have to try to find time to do the printouts.

bleudawg

You are correct Tim and I understand that. Look I know what everyone is doing. There changing out the headshim to a smaller one and tweaking the needle valve and putting a merlin glow plug on it so that the 10*6 can swing 17,000 rpms. A stock from box motor won't swing that, regardless of weather it will not. And I also understand the rules allow you to make those mods, but I know of many people that would rather run from the box. I myself don't won't to take a chance on ruining a new motor. And I know if I never make those engine adjustments ill never really compete. It just doesn't seem simple sport flyer competition by having to change those stock items to compete.

Tbatt

My Feedback: (4)

Sure we could do that. No one has asked for it until now.

At our races we would fill out the heat cards as the race progressed but the scoring was done later. At the end of each heat race, we would try and resolve the finish order and cut count before the pilots left the flight line. The heat card was then put in the stack to be entered into the scoring program. I would do the scoring by hand and then enter the heat results into the scoring software. They always came out the same. This was done as a check to make sure everything was correct. Heat result scoring can be a bit of a nightmare. As long as there are not cuts, jumped starts, DNFs the scoring is 4-3-2-1. I can show you some of the circumstances that will give you fits trying to resolve. The scoring program has been used for years by NMPRA and does the job well but the person entering the data has got to do some mental processing to get it right.

Greg Doe was the main person that was interested in the scores and I showed him where the data was on the PC screen and he was happy. When I ran off the scores I would give a copy to the CD and post another wherever we could find to do so.

codbucket

My Feedback: (6)

Mr. Sawyer, I myself have flown in 5 or 6 club 40 races, and I have only seen heat cards used once, and that was at Alabaster where Dave Phillips was CD.

tsawyer148

My Feedback: (8)

So do you personally feel that by posting them where the pilots could see them would be a help or make any difference?

Tbatt

My Feedback: (4)

Tom, I think you are confusing the pilot cards with the heat cards. We handed out the pilot cards at Alabaster that tells you which heat race you will fly in and your lane ID only. Everyone had problems understanding them so I stopped printing them out. Now I print out the heat card that has all of the rounds and heats on it. That card also has the lane ID for each pilot so it serves the same purpose and is easier to understand. 

tsawyer148

My Feedback: (8)

This is what I am talking about..

codbucket

My Feedback: (6)

Roger that! If they would post anything that would let the pilots know their current standing, round by round it would be a great help indeed.

dphill2

My Feedback: (1)

Tim and all, I think part of the problem is (the guy's are saying over and over) that they want to SEE their scores !! We have not done a very good gob getting the info posted !! I don't care if we use a eraser board or post print out's, Just post the info so everybody knows and can see it for them self where they are.
I think most of the scoring problems will go away. As it stands now we race,race,race,race and nobody has a clue where he is .Then (here comes the cloak and dagger part) The people that are running the event go over to the COMPUTER to find out where everbody finished !!! To some it was a shock to find out they finished higher than they thought and to others they fell far short of what they thought because the last print out had them 3rd or 4th only to find out they did not place in the top 8 .
If we post each round we won't have those suprises at the end of the day. Also it will give the contestant a chance to strighten out any err's that could happen during the round. As for the motor thing I have no idea how to curb that one as we are down to glo plugs,head shims and bearings, All somthing we do just to keep our motor running the best it can AND THAT'S RACING ..........
My 2 cents Dave..........

still4given

We use the same software program for Club 40 as we do for our RCPRO Warbird racing. The data from each heat is entered and at the end of a completed round the standings can be printed out and posted on a tack board. I have been fortunate enough to have a guy take care of the computer system so we usually get the results posted within a couple of heats into the next round. We will announce when they are posted. Seems easier to me to print out the results than it would be to hand write the results on a dry erase board.

I guess it comes down to whether you have enough help so the CD is not saddled with the job of running the scoring.

Blessings, Terry

Tbatt

My Feedback: (4)

Thanks guys for your valued input. I see now what the problem is. WE WILL FIX IT!

There was absolutely nothing done that was intended to hide any info from anyone. We just didn't have the manpower / time to do it. I suggest that we put a break into the race at the end of each round so that the scoring can be done and POSTED! This should only take a few minutes to do.

Pilots, it is up to you to check with the judges on the outcome of each race heat. If you think that there was a problem it needs to be fixed before you leave the flight line. Once I get the heat sheet, I simply go by what was recorded. If I don't understand it I go and ask the starter that wrote the information down what happened.

Tim

JohnMcGowan

My Feedback: (15)

Can we now change your name from Battman to The Scoring Nazi Dictator ? LOL!!!!

I dont know about y'all, but Im really ready to get over all this and just race and have fun.
See y'll at Harvest!!