Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
09-14-2011, 11:41 AM
#326
Thread Starter
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Yes, but I've been in an all day offsite, so I haven't had a chance to respond yet. I'll get back to you this evening.
Brenner...
Brenner...
09-14-2011, 07:12 PM
#327
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Hi All
Somewhat of an interesting story.
I attended this years "Worlds" & "Nationals" and had an opportunity to be exposed to the Contra Drive produced and sold by Brenner Sharp. My primary observation was the Contra drive produced a very constant speed schedule but beyond that I needed to fly the drive to really evaluate it's no torque/no "P' factor attributes.
After the Nationals I was offered the opportunity to purchase Marcello Columbo's [CA Models] personal De Ja Vu that placed 5th in Prelims and 9th in Semi's at a very good price. This particular aircraft had no servos [weight] in the tail, was powered by Q80 [heavy], had made weight & correct C/G and was a perfect test bed to evaluate a Contra Drive. Long story short I purchased the aircraft and ordered a Contra Drive, two sets of props, and three gear sets in order to set up and evaluate the drive.
I now have 15 flights on this combination and am zeroing in on a final setup and trim package. The final weight is 11lbs even. This particular aircraft has the new composite wings that CA is now producing and they are over 3oz heavier than my current De Ja Vu foam wings that were painted top and film on bottom. Evidently these are an early version as Chip has assured me the newer ones are much lighter. [I hope so!] There has been a huge learning process in getting to this point and I really want to thank Brenner Sharp and everyone contributing to this thread for there help in educating me in this process.
So far all I can say is "Holly S___ Batman!" [Some may recall I used this phrase recently in the Castle Creations recall thread] Flying this combination has already proven to be "head & shoulders" better than any aircraft I have had the pleasure to fly. In major terms the biggest change over my current De Ja Vu is the vertical & constant speed characteristicsthat the drive produces. The second observation is the increase in rudder authority the drive produces. Another way to say this is there is a large reduction in yaw stability. I almost snapped this aircraft during the maiden takeoff as I had a stiff crosswind and was holding alot of rudder on rotation and scared myself silly right out the box! I countered these tendencies by flaring the rudder with two pieces of 1/2" triangular stock and a pair of stab SFG's. The SFG;s may eventually come off as I feel like they are causing some negative issues with spins and snaps.
Enough of the tech. stuff. Bellow are several Pic's of the final result. After the conversion I had a number of graphics made as Marcello flies JR, Hacker, his name , and Argentina Number.
Thanks again to Brenner and this thread in getting me up to speed. Feel free to ask questions or make comments & observations.
Regards
Dick
Somewhat of an interesting story.
I attended this years "Worlds" & "Nationals" and had an opportunity to be exposed to the Contra Drive produced and sold by Brenner Sharp. My primary observation was the Contra drive produced a very constant speed schedule but beyond that I needed to fly the drive to really evaluate it's no torque/no "P' factor attributes.
After the Nationals I was offered the opportunity to purchase Marcello Columbo's [CA Models] personal De Ja Vu that placed 5th in Prelims and 9th in Semi's at a very good price. This particular aircraft had no servos [weight] in the tail, was powered by Q80 [heavy], had made weight & correct C/G and was a perfect test bed to evaluate a Contra Drive. Long story short I purchased the aircraft and ordered a Contra Drive, two sets of props, and three gear sets in order to set up and evaluate the drive.
I now have 15 flights on this combination and am zeroing in on a final setup and trim package. The final weight is 11lbs even. This particular aircraft has the new composite wings that CA is now producing and they are over 3oz heavier than my current De Ja Vu foam wings that were painted top and film on bottom. Evidently these are an early version as Chip has assured me the newer ones are much lighter. [I hope so!] There has been a huge learning process in getting to this point and I really want to thank Brenner Sharp and everyone contributing to this thread for there help in educating me in this process.
So far all I can say is "Holly S___ Batman!" [Some may recall I used this phrase recently in the Castle Creations recall thread] Flying this combination has already proven to be "head & shoulders" better than any aircraft I have had the pleasure to fly. In major terms the biggest change over my current De Ja Vu is the vertical & constant speed characteristicsthat the drive produces. The second observation is the increase in rudder authority the drive produces. Another way to say this is there is a large reduction in yaw stability. I almost snapped this aircraft during the maiden takeoff as I had a stiff crosswind and was holding alot of rudder on rotation and scared myself silly right out the box! I countered these tendencies by flaring the rudder with two pieces of 1/2" triangular stock and a pair of stab SFG's. The SFG;s may eventually come off as I feel like they are causing some negative issues with spins and snaps.
Enough of the tech. stuff. Bellow are several Pic's of the final result. After the conversion I had a number of graphics made as Marcello flies JR, Hacker, his name , and Argentina Number.
Thanks again to Brenner and this thread in getting me up to speed. Feel free to ask questions or make comments & observations.
Regards
Dick
09-15-2011, 09:16 AM
#328
My Feedback: (41)
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Dick thats a great report. I'm happy that your results are good so far.\
I had some yaw instability with my Spark and it was very uncomfortable. I added the stab fences and it really helped but on my plane I found that the more I moved the CG aft the better it got. I sometimes think a nose heavy plane lacks that locked in feel.
Everyone I know with the Contra has added the do dads to the rudder. Good luck with learning it. Mike
I had some yaw instability with my Spark and it was very uncomfortable. I added the stab fences and it really helped but on my plane I found that the more I moved the CG aft the better it got. I sometimes think a nose heavy plane lacks that locked in feel.
Everyone I know with the Contra has added the do dads to the rudder. Good luck with learning it. Mike
09-18-2011, 02:15 PM
#332
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Hi All
Quick update on my progress with the Conta Drive De Ja Vu. I now have 29 flights and as of today's changes finally getting that solid locked in feeling. My C/G is 27.5 MAC with .2 positive wing. I have now removed all the Rudder flare and both stab SFG's. I have reduced my "Normal" rudder throw to a very low 35% with a 45% Expo. Stall turn rudder is only 60% with 80% expo. I am using the 22x18 prop with the 10.15 gears @ 82 amps and on windy days I am using the 22x20 prop on the same gear set@ 88 amps. all at sea level basically. I have three mixes two conditions and one switchable dual rate:
Mixes
1. Throttle to down elevetor for vertical down lines
2. Rudder to Aileron for provose roll in both directions
3. Right rudder to up elevator in right knife edge only
Conditions
1. Snap
2. Taxi
Dual rate
1. Rudder for stall turn
I may end up with a "spin" condition as I am not satisfied with with the second 21/2 turn spin as it is "winding up" with not a lot of nose deflection any suggestions on this would be welcome. All the above is for P-13 and I am pretty sure I will need a F13 specific set up once I get further into flying that sequence.
Regards
Dick
Quick update on my progress with the Conta Drive De Ja Vu. I now have 29 flights and as of today's changes finally getting that solid locked in feeling. My C/G is 27.5 MAC with .2 positive wing. I have now removed all the Rudder flare and both stab SFG's. I have reduced my "Normal" rudder throw to a very low 35% with a 45% Expo. Stall turn rudder is only 60% with 80% expo. I am using the 22x18 prop with the 10.15 gears @ 82 amps and on windy days I am using the 22x20 prop on the same gear set@ 88 amps. all at sea level basically. I have three mixes two conditions and one switchable dual rate:
Mixes
1. Throttle to down elevetor for vertical down lines
2. Rudder to Aileron for provose roll in both directions
3. Right rudder to up elevator in right knife edge only
Conditions
1. Snap
2. Taxi
Dual rate
1. Rudder for stall turn
I may end up with a "spin" condition as I am not satisfied with with the second 21/2 turn spin as it is "winding up" with not a lot of nose deflection any suggestions on this would be welcome. All the above is for P-13 and I am pretty sure I will need a F13 specific set up once I get further into flying that sequence.
Regards
Dick
09-18-2011, 06:58 PM
#333
Thread Starter
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Bobby Satalino is also running a Contra on his Visa, and he says that he doesn't need anything on the rudder either. It looks like Chip is getting it right the first time with all his planes ....
09-19-2011, 07:44 AM
#335
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Brenner
The Visa has a low drag fuse especially in nose and so is the new Cation plus the Cation has a higher drag tail which is also an advantage for the Contra conversion. Both of these will be better airframes than the De Ja Vu for a Contra. My De Ja Vu requires a big reduction in throw and lots of expo which severly limits the number of input points of travel compared to the stick throw which does not take advantage of our modern radios. This severly limits the accuraccy of the servo at any given stick position. Also in all three cases we need an additional 1" length in the main gear for better prop clearence. At $200 a set for props this 1" insurance is mandentory IMHO! Another item that needs to change on a Contra specific aircraft is the molded in nose ring incidences from the current 1.5 right & 1.5 dowm thrust to 0-0 left-right and .5 down. Without an absolutely accurate datum line and plate this is very difficult to convert in our shops!
Underdw
The P-13 depending on wind will be from 3200 to 3700 mah and the F-13 is roughly 400 mah more. Brenner has a chart that is pretty accurate in showing different prop pitches and gear ratios effecting speed, battery usage, and max amp draw.
Regards
Dick
The Visa has a low drag fuse especially in nose and so is the new Cation plus the Cation has a higher drag tail which is also an advantage for the Contra conversion. Both of these will be better airframes than the De Ja Vu for a Contra. My De Ja Vu requires a big reduction in throw and lots of expo which severly limits the number of input points of travel compared to the stick throw which does not take advantage of our modern radios. This severly limits the accuraccy of the servo at any given stick position. Also in all three cases we need an additional 1" length in the main gear for better prop clearence. At $200 a set for props this 1" insurance is mandentory IMHO! Another item that needs to change on a Contra specific aircraft is the molded in nose ring incidences from the current 1.5 right & 1.5 dowm thrust to 0-0 left-right and .5 down. Without an absolutely accurate datum line and plate this is very difficult to convert in our shops!
Underdw
The P-13 depending on wind will be from 3200 to 3700 mah and the F-13 is roughly 400 mah more. Brenner has a chart that is pretty accurate in showing different prop pitches and gear ratios effecting speed, battery usage, and max amp draw.
Regards
Dick
09-19-2011, 10:47 AM
#336
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Thanks for the point about the drag location on the fuse- I feel better about my choice of the Cation for the Contra. I was/am somewhat concerned about energy usage with a Contra on a draggy airframe. Taking 4000mah from "used" 5000 batteries leaves little/no margin.
My airframe is supposed to have a 0,0 (or 0,-.5) nosering; hopefully this got communicated and done.
What replacement landing gear do you recommend?
Thanks, Dan
My airframe is supposed to have a 0,0 (or 0,-.5) nosering; hopefully this got communicated and done.
What replacement landing gear do you recommend?
Thanks, Dan
09-19-2011, 11:26 AM
#337
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
underdw
All the batteries I fly are ove a year old and some have almost 100 cycles and no problem. I have 2 sets of Rhino 4900's and 6 sets of Chris Moons packs. I will probably buy two more "New" 45C packs to fly F-13 this winter.
There is no replacement gear but one is needed and will be required for my next plane.
When you get your new Cation would you send me the individual wing weights if you have an accurate scale. I am assuming you are getting the composite wings and stabs.
Regards
Dick
All the batteries I fly are ove a year old and some have almost 100 cycles and no problem. I have 2 sets of Rhino 4900's and 6 sets of Chris Moons packs. I will probably buy two more "New" 45C packs to fly F-13 this winter.
There is no replacement gear but one is needed and will be required for my next plane.
When you get your new Cation would you send me the individual wing weights if you have an accurate scale. I am assuming you are getting the composite wings and stabs.
Regards
Dick
09-21-2011, 08:13 PM
#338
My Feedback: (8)
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Brennar,
I know you have been waiting for this. I got the drive in the Visa and flew it today. First let me say a few things. I used my dads mount and cut the props down a half inch on each tip. 25 C 5000's and zeroed out all the mixes except throttle to elev. 2.0%. I set up a plus 80 standard throttle curve (20% higher then normal) and increased the expo on the split rudder from 50 to 70%. Oh yeah and reduced the travel in split mode from 75% to 50%.
These things were all done before the first flight. The moment I ran it up I new my dads mount was really doing its job. This thing is whisper quiet. Immediately the performance was exactley what we wanted right from the take off. Rolls are effortless, differential is a thing of the past, stall turns either way and so on and so forth. I was all prepared to go to 45 or 65C batts but its not needed.
Just to be sure I wasn't imagining things I pulled out my worlds visa and flew both planes back to back and they are very similiar. The only thing I forgot before the test flight was to split the rudder a little. I opened it about 3/4 inch and its as stable and smooth in yaw as any plane I have ever flown.
Leon and I spent the afternoon flying and smiling. Tony is coming tomorrow and even though I am in shootout mode we will fly the Visa a few more times.
It was 97 degrees out today and the Batts were cold. I only flew about 7 minutes a flight and was landing at 37.8.
What I cannot figure out is why the speed was so good. Maybe its just the trottle curve, but all doubts are gone now in my mind about this.
Anyway back to work on the Extra to get ready for tomorrow. I had completely forgotten about wiping planes off and after looking at the bottom this afternoon (Approaching 30 gallons LOL) I figure I better get a jump on this.
Anyway congrats once again on this and you really need to try one with my dads mount totally different sounding.
C
PS and Dick it was a plane Marcelo made for himself by himself lol. We all no how that goes. I will call you about the cation. BTW we are closing the paint shop until I get back Miry has been working 12 to 13 hours a day and she needs a break. On the plus side if guys can wait a few weeks it will really be worth it. You will be able to buy a ARC from Marcelo, for $2200.00 (Thats what he sells them for with all accessories)and then when he gets it ready I will check everything and Finish it out to ARF. This will save everyone about $750.00 and you will have the exact same plane. Basically $3000.00 instead of $3600.00. Dick yours is first. Pass the word
I know you have been waiting for this. I got the drive in the Visa and flew it today. First let me say a few things. I used my dads mount and cut the props down a half inch on each tip. 25 C 5000's and zeroed out all the mixes except throttle to elev. 2.0%. I set up a plus 80 standard throttle curve (20% higher then normal) and increased the expo on the split rudder from 50 to 70%. Oh yeah and reduced the travel in split mode from 75% to 50%.
These things were all done before the first flight. The moment I ran it up I new my dads mount was really doing its job. This thing is whisper quiet. Immediately the performance was exactley what we wanted right from the take off. Rolls are effortless, differential is a thing of the past, stall turns either way and so on and so forth. I was all prepared to go to 45 or 65C batts but its not needed.
Just to be sure I wasn't imagining things I pulled out my worlds visa and flew both planes back to back and they are very similiar. The only thing I forgot before the test flight was to split the rudder a little. I opened it about 3/4 inch and its as stable and smooth in yaw as any plane I have ever flown.
Leon and I spent the afternoon flying and smiling. Tony is coming tomorrow and even though I am in shootout mode we will fly the Visa a few more times.
It was 97 degrees out today and the Batts were cold. I only flew about 7 minutes a flight and was landing at 37.8.
What I cannot figure out is why the speed was so good. Maybe its just the trottle curve, but all doubts are gone now in my mind about this.
Anyway back to work on the Extra to get ready for tomorrow. I had completely forgotten about wiping planes off and after looking at the bottom this afternoon (Approaching 30 gallons LOL) I figure I better get a jump on this.
Anyway congrats once again on this and you really need to try one with my dads mount totally different sounding.
C
PS and Dick it was a plane Marcelo made for himself by himself lol. We all no how that goes. I will call you about the cation. BTW we are closing the paint shop until I get back Miry has been working 12 to 13 hours a day and she needs a break. On the plus side if guys can wait a few weeks it will really be worth it. You will be able to buy a ARC from Marcelo, for $2200.00 (Thats what he sells them for with all accessories)and then when he gets it ready I will check everything and Finish it out to ARF. This will save everyone about $750.00 and you will have the exact same plane. Basically $3000.00 instead of $3600.00. Dick yours is first. Pass the word
09-21-2011, 08:42 PM
#339
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Hey Chip
Wish I was going to be there with you and Tony!
Call me when you get back. I now have almost 40 flights on the Contra and have it really locked in solid. Are you going back to Argentina via Ca, Houston, or what? If it's Houston your welcome here. I owe you one on the De Ja Vu Canopy!
Good luck in the "Shootout!
Dick
Wish I was going to be there with you and Tony!
Call me when you get back. I now have almost 40 flights on the Contra and have it really locked in solid. Are you going back to Argentina via Ca, Houston, or what? If it's Houston your welcome here. I owe you one on the De Ja Vu Canopy!
Good luck in the "Shootout!
Dick
09-23-2011, 06:46 PM
#341
Thread Starter
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Hey Chip,
Thanks for posting about your experiences. Bobby Satalino is also very happy with his Contra Powered Visa. He says it flew great right from the start, just like yours did. He is also very happy with the speed as well, and Bobby is known to have a preference for a fast setup.
I am very interested to learn more about your dad's Contra motor mount. Do you have any pictures that you can post?
Brenner ...
Thanks for posting about your experiences. Bobby Satalino is also very happy with his Contra Powered Visa. He says it flew great right from the start, just like yours did. He is also very happy with the speed as well, and Bobby is known to have a preference for a fast setup.
I am very interested to learn more about your dad's Contra motor mount. Do you have any pictures that you can post?
Brenner ...
09-23-2011, 07:16 PM
#342
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Hey Brenner
Thanks for the info, this really confirms my beliefs in what we need in a Contra Specific aircraft design as discussedin my previous post.
Chip
I too want some specifics on your Dads mount. I have always used them since I made the electric conversion and I am not real happy with the results using the Budd Engineering groments, although they are very light.
Dick
Thanks for the info, this really confirms my beliefs in what we need in a Contra Specific aircraft design as discussedin my previous post.
Chip
I too want some specifics on your Dads mount. I have always used them since I made the electric conversion and I am not real happy with the results using the Budd Engineering groments, although they are very light.
Dick
09-25-2011, 05:56 PM
#343
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
HI Dick, I’m not a designer but have also been seeing this trend of planes that the contra suites better where the streamlined front end/canopy has required little or no modifications vs the blunter front end/tall canopy the planes have needed some modifications. Also a taller fin should help with the stability. Modifications that have been working for several of us have been to thicken the rudder trailing edge, ¾“ to 1†wide, add stab fences, 3/8†tall worked well on the Spark, or add a dorsal fin, have not tried this on any of my planes but Tony had this on his Onas.
The Wind I have been flying since the NATS should have been very easy to get the contra working well since it has a streamlined canopy, a tall fin and of course designed for the contra but the wing design has been giving me some issues. Now two wing designs later the plane is flying very well with no modifications to the fuse. Several of us from D5 invaded the D4 Championship this weekend and I received some positive feedback on the performance of the plane with the double tapered Genesis wing currently mated to the fuse from Bill Ahrens, Mike Mueller and other pilots.
It was really nice to experiment with the wings and see that the overall speed of the plane did not change significantly with the different wings but I did notice a speed change when changing from the Spark to the Wind. The Wind was much easier to get a good speed while at times the Spark would fly too slow and I think this is mostly due to the shape of the fuse and maybe the width of the fuse.
Hope this information helps you Dick in the design of a contra specific plane.
Dave Snow
The Wind I have been flying since the NATS should have been very easy to get the contra working well since it has a streamlined canopy, a tall fin and of course designed for the contra but the wing design has been giving me some issues. Now two wing designs later the plane is flying very well with no modifications to the fuse. Several of us from D5 invaded the D4 Championship this weekend and I received some positive feedback on the performance of the plane with the double tapered Genesis wing currently mated to the fuse from Bill Ahrens, Mike Mueller and other pilots.
It was really nice to experiment with the wings and see that the overall speed of the plane did not change significantly with the different wings but I did notice a speed change when changing from the Spark to the Wind. The Wind was much easier to get a good speed while at times the Spark would fly too slow and I think this is mostly due to the shape of the fuse and maybe the width of the fuse.
Hope this information helps you Dick in the design of a contra specific plane.
Dave Snow
09-25-2011, 07:29 PM
#345
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Dave
Thanks for the input. During the process of trying to get a "solid" feel in the Contra setup I got stuck with not being able to get what I wanted in response to making C/G changes. I called and talked to Bryan Hebert and he suggested I set up a 28% MAC C/G and start playing with the wing incidences and adjusting stabs to take out any elevator trim. Bingo! Within two adjustments I was able to get the "solid" feeling I was looking for. I was really surprised how this worked. I had been working with MAC from 33% to as little as 17% and never found that locked in feeling!
I have been able to get the speed close by changing props and gear ratio's but I really would like to experiment with a low drag fuse from the vertical fin forward. The other thing I would like to experiment with is remove the main gear[Lot's of Drag a head of C/G] and install a set of light weight retracts!! How about a set of very light Genesis wings with retracts.
May not work due to loss of needed down-line drag! I do believe a Contr Drive specific aircraft is going to change the current thinking in pattern aircraft design.
Dick
Thanks for the input. During the process of trying to get a "solid" feel in the Contra setup I got stuck with not being able to get what I wanted in response to making C/G changes. I called and talked to Bryan Hebert and he suggested I set up a 28% MAC C/G and start playing with the wing incidences and adjusting stabs to take out any elevator trim. Bingo! Within two adjustments I was able to get the "solid" feeling I was looking for. I was really surprised how this worked. I had been working with MAC from 33% to as little as 17% and never found that locked in feeling!
I have been able to get the speed close by changing props and gear ratio's but I really would like to experiment with a low drag fuse from the vertical fin forward. The other thing I would like to experiment with is remove the main gear[Lot's of Drag a head of C/G] and install a set of light weight retracts!! How about a set of very light Genesis wings with retracts.
May not work due to loss of needed down-line drag! I do believe a Contr Drive specific aircraft is going to change the current thinking in pattern aircraft design.Dick
09-25-2011, 08:14 PM
#346
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RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
Dick,
I think you'd have problems with retracts. The length of the legs would be the drama unless you're flying a biplane... Perhaps and Aferma?
Cheers,
Jason.
I think you'd have problems with retracts. The length of the legs would be the drama unless you're flying a biplane... Perhaps and Aferma?
Cheers,
Jason.
09-26-2011, 08:59 AM
#348
Thread Starter
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
The D4 Championship in Kentucky over the weekend probably had more Contras than at any contest in history. There were a total of five planes with Contra Drives. Here are some pictures:
I finally got the uploader to work...
The pilots from left to right are:
Bill Ahrens (f3a D5)
Mike Gaishin (Intermediate D4)
Brenner Sharp (Masters D4)
Dave Snow (f3a D5)
Bobby Satalino (Masters D5)
I finally got the uploader to work...
The pilots from left to right are:
Bill Ahrens (f3a D5)
Mike Gaishin (Intermediate D4)
Brenner Sharp (Masters D4)
Dave Snow (f3a D5)
Bobby Satalino (Masters D5)
10-03-2011, 05:59 PM
#349
My Feedback: (5)
RE: Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
ORIGINAL: Brenner
Hey Chip,
Thanks for posting about your experiences. Bobby Satalino is also very happy with his Contra Powered Visa. He says it flew great right from the start, just like yours did. He is also very happy with the speed as well, and Bobby is known to have a preference for a fast setup.
I am very interested to learn more about your dad's Contra motor mount. Do you have any pictures that you can post?
Brenner ...
Hey Chip,
Thanks for posting about your experiences. Bobby Satalino is also very happy with his Contra Powered Visa. He says it flew great right from the start, just like yours did. He is also very happy with the speed as well, and Bobby is known to have a preference for a fast setup.
I am very interested to learn more about your dad's Contra motor mount. Do you have any pictures that you can post?
Brenner ...
I looked at the Visa that Chip installed the contra drive in. It looked like Chip used the standard mount for the Neu motor and moved it to mount on the front of the firewall vs the back. He moved the rear motor support forward accordingly. I couldn't tell, but I think the firewall was in the original position.
I flew it and found it pretty impressive.