J Lachowski

My Feedback: (46)

Looking for what might be best to strenghten the presence of pilots in the AMA Advanced Class in the future. In some areas the Advanced class has diminished in quantity over the years. It is also a very crucial group of pilots needed to maintain a balanced judging pool at the local contest level.

There are a variety of reasons why some pilots do or don't remain in Advanced for as long as they really should.

Keep in mind even establishing permanent sequences will still require periodic review based on the state of pattern in the US.

Strat2003

My Feedback: (1)

If Advanced and Intermediate are development classes, used to teach the skills needed for the next higher class, they should only change when the skills needed for Masters change. Some of us will never become proficient enough to fly Masters, so the idea of rotating two similar but equal sequences might have some appeal to the guys without the talent, resources or inclination to move on.
In D4, Intermediate has seen larger numbers in the last couple of seasons. Maybe the numbers in Advanced will increase when some of those guys move up.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

Yeah D1 is really top heavy with masters, very different in D4.

Flying same sequence for 4 years sounds boring to me. I'm still learning and just bumped up to intermediate. I think 2 years of flying this schedule is enough time to practice the maneuvers and be ready for something fresh but equally challenging after. Also maybe that keeps one guy from excellent if he's been flying the same routine for 4 years.

2 schedules to fly at the same time/season is too much for intermediate, dunno about advanced.

Frequent changes allow new perception and help break bad habits (like realizing you may not always have a day to fly from humpty to triangle loop, though good coaching has helped me get there sooner).

Columbus Ron

Joe, to be honest I'm not sure how to vote on this because I don't know all of the manuvers that could possibly be included in an advanced sequence. I would like to have a rotation that is frequent enough to allow most advanced pilots to experience all of the possible advanced manuvers within a reasonable period of time (say 6 years). This avoids bordom and properly prepares pilots for the next level because they've experienced all the possible advanced manuvers before moving on.

I also don't think this proposal will make a difference.

If you make Masters harder then some of them will drop down to advanced as long as advanced isn't too easy.

J Lachowski

My Feedback: (46)

The sequence development guidelines on the NSRCA website have everything including design criteria and boundaries and a maneuver list for each class. It is a living document of course and a maneuver from time to time can be added to the list under each class.

wagen017

We don't have the system of Advanced and Master, just Sportsman, Advanced and FAI. The Advanced schedule is always a derivative of FAI and changes every two years. Works very well and gives you something to look forward to if you don't want to move up to FAI.

Volkert

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

The NSRCA's sequence guide requires certain maneuvers be in the sequence such as the 4 point, Slow roll, two minimum stall turns with one Down wind stall turn required. Some family of maneuvers require 2 but no more than three. Such as the 4 point and slow roll one could only add one other rolling maneuver. Such as a reverse knife edge or 3 rolls. There are more requirements which tend to limit the sequence design. Not sure why these limits were placed on the design committee. There must have been a good reason for doing so.

If you've not read the rules for designing a sequence I implore you to do so.

I notice 3 members of the sequence committee from D1 and none from D2,4,6. Odd Thought they wanted reps from every District?

I think any "permanent" sequence would be silly. Times change and so does the sport so there should never be anything permanent.

Having said that.................

Given the design criteria I doubt we can come up with 3-4 sequences that are different enough to be rotated in the first place.

Sure would be fun to try however.


Tim

J Lachowski

My Feedback: (46)

Website regarding committee members has not been updated.

Also, even if a district dosen't have a member on the committee, it has at least one beta tester. We can't haved too many people involved, it just gets out of hand to control the process. One of the D1 representatives is going to declare as a D2 member anyway. Also, some of the members were asked to continue serving because of their vast knowledge and experience in developing sequences. Bottom line, we have a very good cross section of people involved whom the NSRCA Board has approved and is confident will do a good job.

This thread is not about the politics. Let's keep to the subject at hand. If anyone has an issue with the committee and guidelines, contact your District VP or any of the other officers with your concerns. Keep in mind we are all volunteers.

Regarding permanent, I did specify that permanent is not really permanent in my initial post.

The design criteria specified in the guidelines are based on much of the experience gained in the past. The design criteria are a living document and are subject to review every two years. The criteria are written as such to prevent uncontrollable difficulty creep in the progression through the classes.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Thanks for the clarification Joe, it cleared up a lot of questions I had. I agree too many cooks spoil the brew.

It will be interesting on the results of the poll.

Tim

MTK

Sorry Joe.....I deleted the remark

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

No, Beta is a fish...

Arch

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

.
Or the new breed of "males" that our society is producing . . .
.

4u2nv-RCU

My Feedback: (28)

As an older pilot that will probably never move up to Masters I can say that the prospect of flying roughly the same two or three sequences over and over throughout the years might get stale. Subtle changes every two or three years would be better to keep it fresh. I know it would be more time consuming and cumbersome to come up with a new schedule each time but I believe it would be worth the effort in the long run.

Peace!

4u2nv-RCU

My Feedback: (28)

I am the last word on the advanced sequence subject? Really? Maybe the advanced class IS dying off if that is the case!!!LOL

4ptrol

I am currently flying the Advance class and in time hope to move to Masters. I am concerned though that Masters will be above my abilities. The current Masters sequence with practice (Alot of practice) would be something I could handle and fly with success. By that I mean to hopefully finish in the middle with a little luck. If the Masters sequence becomes significantly harder I foresee myself remaining in Advance. Does this mean other flyers currently flying Advance may also do the same if Masters becomes simply too hard to move into? Moving to Masters, facing the immense talent that exists and trying to learn even more complex manuevers is indeed a challenge. Please understand I expect to see and fly more involved manevers but how involved do we allow Masters to become? The steps between each class should be constructed to allow a good pilot do migrate through (with practice) the classes and enjoy those steps. The two classes in some way must work together. With that said I do believe Advance class should be constructed to prepare the Advance pilot for what lies ahead. The Advance pattern will need to change often to maintain a challenging sequence that prepares the flyer for the move up while not allowing boredom to set in. In turn the Masters Class needs to be kept at a reachable level if we are to have a continued migration of new pilots into Masters.

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

+1 Sir. Very nicely said

jgg215

Perhaps we should be looking to base the Advanced pattern on the framework established by the current MAsters Pattern. For example, the Advanced pattern could start out with:

1.  figure M with 1/4 rolls and an inside half loop
2. humpty with options
3. 2 and a 1/2 rolls
4. 1/2 sq with 1/2 roll
5. reverse cuban with 2/4 rolls
6. half loop
7. diamond loop with 1/2 rolls legs 1 and 3
8. 1/2 sq with 2/4
9. 45 degree snap
10. stall turn 2/4 up
11. 4 pt roll
12. top hat w/ 1/4 rolls
13. double immelmann with 1/2 rolls
14. humpty with 2/4 up, 1/2 roll down
15. triangle with snap
16. 1/2 roll, 1/2 loop
17. 2 and 1/2 turn spin, 1/2 roll exit

I haven't checked k-factors or the Advanced sequence guide, just giving an example of an advanced pattern that would prepare you for Masters

J Lachowski

My Feedback: (46)

We have a preliminary schedule to work from and it is similar to the maneuvers you have listed in many respects. Stay tuned, be patient, I think in the end the Advanced guys will be satisfied with what they get.

randy10926

My Feedback: (19)

patiently waiting. Pant, Pant

cmoulder

I hope these changes are not to take place until the 2013 season because I have been learning and practicing the 11-12 Advanced schedule.

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

Bob, that is correct.  Advanced will fly the current pattern through the 2012 season.

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

And there is nothing set in stone that Advanced will even be changing then. Just currently being considered. Masters will be changing and Advanced is being discussed, but not 100% sure on Advanced,

Arch

cmoulder

Now that I'm starting to get the maneuver order memorized, I really like the flow of it. Except for the stall turn with 1/2 roll up and down that precedes the slow roll, there is not a lot of danger of running outside the box.

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

Arch,
   According to 65% of the pollsters, it should change

jrpav1

My Feedback: (17)

Joe,
As you know I missed the entire past season because I was busy getting things back in order after losing Kathy (my house needed a LOT of work). That being said I WILL be back in 2012!

I think the deal with there not being many guys in Advanced is a bit more complicated than we might think. I know there was talk about changing the advancement rules but I'm not sure how that all turned out (remember - I just took a year off). I personally think that a pilot should be free to choose when they move "up" to the next class rather than being forced to do it because of a rule. I know in reality this is pretty much what happens but some people do take the rules very seriously and the idea of being "forced" into Masters can be a big problem. I think that sometimes when an Advanced pilot points out, instead of going to Masters, they quit. This is not good. If we've fixed this problem then I guess it's not an issue anymore but I think that's part of the reason why we didn't see a lot of people in Advanced. They didn't want to fly Masters and they couldn't "legally" fly Advanced so they just quit.

Keeping this in mind I think that if someone feels that they want to be an Advanced-class "lifer" (nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned) then we should change the sequences every now and then. This would keep people interested. That's always good. The down side is that we need to devote time and effort to creating new sequences but I don't think that's asking a lot. I was on the sequence committe a few years ago and I thought it was more fun than work.

As far as sequence difficulty goes, I think we do a pretty good job with that for the most part although there seems to be this notion that each class should prepare you 100% for the next one. I don't think that's realistic. We only have 4 classes and we have to go from learning how to fly straight and level and perform relatively simple rolling and looping maneuvers inside the box (Sportsman) to things like the Figure M and maneuvers with inverted entry and exit (Masters). The fact is that you need to learn the sequence that you're going to fly through practice and discipline. You can't expect to be "ready" for Masters simply by winning a few Advanced contests. I can fly the Masters sequence. Would I want to compete in that class? No. Is it because I won't take home a trophy? No. I have plenty of those. LOL The fact is I'll know when I'm ready, but if that day never comes then I hope to be able to go to contests and have fun in Advanced. See you guys next year.

John Pavlick