NM2K

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I couldn't agree with you more, at least on the latter part concerning camaraderie, etc. Maybe my problem with the first part exists because of my prejudice in favor of Kaos type models (pre Super Kaos). The era of the Sun Fli and Kaos models was when we amateur aerodynamicists (in our minds only) could really get lucky and make a change for the better now and then.

Thanks for your comments.


Ed Cregger

LS171Malibu

My Feedback: (16)

It is very possible that the Birdy fuse on the ground in the background is the plane in question! Sure fly's nice, and I believe the guy at the sticks would have been able to be competitive with a Tower ARF Kaos, his skills are not in question.

turbo.gst

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LS171Malibu brings up an extremely valuable point about a pilot skills being competitive with a less advanced design. One of the guys I fly with commented that those really good pilots could fly the box a plane came in as it sure seems like whatever they fly looks good!

BullardRM

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Has anyone considered asing Dick for input on this ? Would he not have the exact information regarding the time line ?

NM2K

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Then Dick would comment and this thread would be closed. Where's the fun in that? (smile)


Ed Cregger

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Yes,

as I mentioned in post #24:

Again, if memory serves, I believe that Hanson's and Brown's conception of the Tipo and, further, the actual flying of a prototype, occurred before the SPA cut off date and began with Prettner's third place F3A Super Sicroly entry in 1973 and second place Curare finish in Switzerland '75. This based on my recollection of what Hanson said in the last couple of years after being posed questions on the matter. In other words, the Tiporare apparently flew before the end of 1975.

We did ask Dick and he responded in a thread somewhere here on the forum - I just can't recall which one. There is random info on the Tipo all over the place in the forum. Good luck finding it again.

Basically I recall someone wanted to fly a Tipo in SPA, the issue was raised with them, my understanding is they said no, and then Dick was posed the question. As stated above, my recollection is that Dick said he flew the Tipo in late '75 or early '76 (February comes to mind for some reason). This of course means that he and Dave were busy designing and building during '75 and probably much earlier.

In fact, after glancing over Dick's '80 article recently, I re-read that Dick says that both he and Dave "were impressed" with Hanno's model at the world's in Doylestown! That means '71 and it also means Hanno's Super Sicroly. Hanno didn't enter a Curare until '75 in Switzerland. Dick also speaks of having built/experimented with over 150 models! I'd say it takes some time to build 150 prototypes even if there are two people building them... In other words, Dick and Dave were busy with the Tipo since 1971! Now..., that is significant.

Pre '76 documentation would be "easy" to come by so long as Dick and Dave were willing to provide an account of the progress of the design. But the fact that strikes me as most important is that the Tipo isn't even based on the Curare originally. The Curare is usually mentioned because that model was in play in '75 and is perhaps the best known classic pattern plane to the average modeler. And Dick of course also mentions it in the first paragraph of his article. But, all said and done, the Curare is simply an evolved SS just like the Tipo. The final Tiporare "arrangement" that Dick and Dave were happy with probably didn't come about until after 1977 in Springfield just like Hanno's final arrangment of the Super Sicroly didn't come about until that year as well with his Curare II - if we can call it that. Hanno was first in Springfield '77 but was second in Berne '75, reason for which Dick and Dave were likely tracking the progress of the rising star as well as that if his and their design!

BTW, Hanno's rise to stardom was incremental during the '70's: 4th '71 SS, 3rd '73 SSII, 2nd '75 CI, 1st '77 CII. Then I believe he was sick in '79 and held the entire decade of the '80's in first place with his "simple" conventional gear designs; except for the Magic (Magic '81, Calypso '83, Supra Fly '85, Supra Star '87, Supra Star '89). All were powered by SuperTigre's except for the last Supra Star in '89 when he began the development of the Hanno Special with OS. The first version was just referred to as a "long stroke".

As I mentioned before, I have little vested interest in the Tipo being admitted. But the more one digs, the more it just makes sense that the Tipo and the Curare are contemporaries - both based on the Super Sicroly originally.

Given recent SPA criteria, if that is accepted, as it properly should, then one could in principle be allowed to fly a 4 stroke Tipo Surpass... [:-] since the Tipo version 1 model was likely built 'round about 1972-73 but no later...

When was the P8 designed...?

I hope this isn't upsetting anyone here. It's actually interesting investigative work! [8D]

Tipo Surpass for all you Tipo fans.

David.

Skylane

My Feedback: (3)

Interesting investigative work, for sure. A few years ago Rich Ernst contacted Jim Kimbro and got a letter from him stating that the first Deception flew before 1/1/76. Rich forwarded a copy to Mickey Walker and he approved the Deception. So, if someone were to get a similar letter from Dick Hanson, then the Tipo would go on the approved list I am sure.

Jeff

LS171Malibu

My Feedback: (16)

Wow, this is fun! I'll see what other questions I can come up with.

Thank you for all of the replies, this is getting interesting.

lindyq

Hey David,
I don't find it upsetting at all, very interesting and in depth investigative work that is really cool. I agree with Jeff, I think if you can get the documentation it will be allowed, which would make it another great model available for consideration. Thanks!
Lindy

kingaltair

My Feedback: (4)

I would also say that if Dick wrote a letter that the plan was finished prior to 1-1-76 the plane would be approved as well, even if it had not flown...a case could be made in that situation, but I'm absolutely sure that the UFO would be turned down, even thought it is clearly understood to be a later, more refined Dirty Birdy. The model name is different, and the plan clearly came after 1-1-76.

Where things start to get "iffy" is when someone starts talking about the "concept" of a plane being prior to 1-1-76. From my SPA experience, and how the process works, that is talking it a bit too far, and "that dog won't hunt".

Looking back, Mickey unintentionally opened a "can of worms" when he made the decision to allow ancestors of legal models such as the P8 and TT4. I'm pretty sure, (knowing Mickey), that a lot of that had to do with the name being the same...plus a friend really wanted that P8...it was only a number change in a series....right? I'm not saying that makes it OK...I'm only saying that was probably the rationalle at the time.

Interestingly, Mickey was also the one who first allowed certain seemingly innocent "mods" from the established plans in order to improve flight performance. He is now trying to reign in the mods that have gotten out of hand in some cases. Once the "toothpaste is out of the tube", it's hard to put in back in.

Duane

AndyKunz

I just sent Dick an e-mail. Let's see what he says!

Andy

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

Here we sit, musing about rules and regs for what is essentially a dead art. Each and every human soul that has ever competed, or thought of competing, in what we now call classic pattern has their own version of the paradigm floating around in their brains. As has already been pointed out by someone else, we should probably focus on the camaraderie and nostalgia instead of the technology.


Ed Cregger

MMcConville

My Feedback: (4)

I happened to be in the same club in Loveland, OH as Dick when he built the Tipo and the project came to life. I am quite certain of the following facts and dates.

Here is a brief history of the Tiporare:

- In 1977 Dick was flying a Curare built from the MAN plans. My dad and I joind his club in fall of '77 and met Dick and his son Guy. That was probably the hook that started me on my competition career.

- Dick Built two Curares from the Hobby Barn Quality Line kit for Brown in the fall for 1977 for Dave to use at the TOC that year. Which he did. (this was the last year TOC used pattern models).

- In 1978 Dick brought out a modified Curare that he had built over the winter (from wood) for him self. General concensus in the area was that the Curare was a fantastic flying model, but was generally ugly. Dick's model cleaned up the lines of the Curare and made it as considered by most to be prettier. He called it the Tiporare. Combined the word "Tipo" which was printed on the side of SuperTiger engines boxes (Type in italian) with "are" the last half of CurARE. The name was Dick's son Guy Hanson's idea.

- Dick's model was well received, so after the 1978 season, Bill Keller of WK Hobbies and Dick worked together to create a glass foam kit. Dick made a fuse plug with a few further refinements over the wood version he flew in '78 and that became the now classic Tiporare (or T720). At one point the name Antidote was briefly considered for the production model (antidote for the poison Curare), but in the end Tiporare was kept and the rest is history.

- In the 1979 season MANY Tiporares entered the contest trail being flown by Brown, Frackowiak and a ton of others. Dad and I also build one but lost it right before the NATS that year. I had many more Tipos to follow.

- Some years later, WK Hobbies sold to Great Planes and that is how they came to have the Tiporare and Illusion. This was pretty much after pattern had moved on to newer designs. When the Tipo was in its prime, it was a WK kit.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Mike,

thanks for the interesting history of the Tipo as of 1977 - most enlightening. Hopefully Dick will find a moment to reply to Andy's email (I'd already written to him in the past so was hesitant to write again with the same old questions) to enlighten us on the progress of the design from the '71-'77 period.

The one thing that caught my eye was that Dick mentioned that he and Dave had built over 150 prototypes! (Maybe they should be called "raretypes"...) I assume this meant during the period from 1971, after the world's in OH when they were first impressed with Hanno's SS and his flying skills, to Feb 1980 when the MB T720 article was published. Taking that as an 8 year period, give or take (the article was published early 1980), that means an average of more than 18 models per year. Probably some of these came straight out of the presses of WK hobbies so no actual framing up was required but still, even with their experience, it takes some time to build a glass/foam kit. Dick and Dave would have had to be building 9 models each per year... If we shorten that time period to assume that development didn't start until after 1976, well, that makes for a great deal of models being built in a 4 year time span - more than 36 a year. In short, what I'm getting at is that the conception of the Tipo must have happened well before 1975. However, when exactly plans were begun to build those prototypes remains a question for Dick to answer.

A minor comment regarding the naming of the model. In your description, you mention that the name was coined from the term Tipo (interesting that the word came off ST boxes!), which indeed does mean Type, and are the ending of Curare. That would be omitting a letter "r" from the word Tiporare. My understanding from Dick was that the name was the combination of the Italian word Tipo and the English word rare - in other words, rare-type.

David.

MMcConville

My Feedback: (4)

MY mistake. Rare came from CuRARE.

From my recollection Dave didnt build any of those. Dick build his competition models. Dave painted them.

For a period Dick was framing up Tipo's for WK to sell comercially. He became quite good and could pop out a frame up in a weekend. That is what he is referring to. That would have happened between 1979 and about 1981.

BTW, The worlds in Ohio were 1977 not 1971 and Prettner flew the Curare not the SS.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

The brand name on my epoxy glass and foam Tiporare and Phoenix 8 was Aero Composites or Aerocomposites. I can't remember which. Were they a dba for WK?


Ed Cregger

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Interesting. Dick just mentioned that he and Dave had "bits of balsa" shuttling back and forth between them. I assumed that meant that Dave was to some extent involved in the development.

Wow, a full Tipo frame up in a weekend! Impressive, but I don't doubt it. The mention of 150 models was made in the article which was published in Feb 1980 so it was likely written in 1979 or early 1980 at the latest. The 150 models would have had to be built during the year of 1979. At a model per weekend, that's 52 models assuming one builds every weekend. If one builds 300 days per year ([X(]), without getting distracted, at a model every two days, that would be just about 150 models. Dick would have had to be a veritable building machine which he no doubt was. I guess I'm trying to get the math right. It sounds possible but unlikely.

Mmm... well, that would change everything. If that's the case, then the Tipo would squarely be based on the Curare that Hanno won with in '77. Dick or Dave might have not paid attention to Hanno until he won. Well, Dave took third over Hanno's second in '75 (and then second over Hanno's first in '77), so maybe the idea for the Tipo went back to 1975. Either way, if that's the case, development was likely done during the 1975-1979 time frame which would coincide with the dates you mention Mike (not that I doubt them).

When Dick mentioned Ohio, I assumed that he was referring to the world's in Doylestown (1971) not in Springfield. But maybe it was Doylestown, Pennsylvania not Ohio - Mike, do you recall?

David.

MMcConville

My Feedback: (4)

Ed,

That would be a Tipo 750 fuse not a Tiporare if it was made by Aerocomposits.

MMcConville

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Not Ohio. Dont remember where the '71 or '73 worlds were (I was only 6 in '71) . I know '75 were in Bern, Swit, '79 in either S Africa or Alcapulco, Mex. I didnt think the WC were in the states in the 70's any time other than '77 in Springfield, OH. Im not sure on that though.

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

I completely agree with Mike's timeline. That is exactly as I know it. IMO, Dave had very little to do with the design of the Tiporare, other then maybe a few suggestions. It was a way to kit a "Curare" that some thought prettier and without royalties to Hanno. I do have to disagree with Mike on one thing. Hanson could frame up more then one airplane a week! He was fast! and his shop didn't have much in the way of power tools. I think he had a band saw and Dremel jig saw and that was it.

World's were in Doylestown, PA in '71, in Italy in '73.

BTW, Dick once told me that the name came from the WW1 song, It's a long way from "Tiporare".

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Things are starting to fall into place now. The world's in OH that Dick was referring to were Springfield '77. Although the worlds were in Doylestown in '71, that was in PA not in OH although there are Doylestown's in both states. In '71 I was also a young lad so the events were of little importance to me then. It's interesting that in those days there was little concern about plagiarism. I think Dick did a great job in re-designing the Curare but in retrospect it does sound like a "sneaky" way to avoid giving Hanno his dues... Hanno was likely just flattered. In those days, people didn't sue each other as a means of exercise as we do today. Funny thing is that 30 years later Curare's are available once again - as Austrian ARF's!

Not to continue harping on the same issue but Dick must have had to frame up ~3 models a week if he was going to get those 150 proto's built and tested in a year. Sounds like it is more likely that he built ~75 a year over the period of summer '77 to fall '79 when the final T720 configuration was finalized. That's still a heck of a lot planes to build, finish and fly in a two year time span and basically two flying seasons at those latitudes.

Right, so it was Pennsylvania '71. It then went as follows:
[ul][*] Doylestown, PA, USA '71 (Geizendanner, Marabu)[*] Gorizia, Italy '73 (Yoshioka, Blue Angel)[*] Bern, Switzerland '75 (Matt, Atlas)[*] Springfield, OH, USA '77 (Prettner, Curare)[*] Johannesburg, South Africa '79 (Matt, Arrow)[*] Acapulco, Mexico '81 (Prettner, Magic)[*] Pensacola, FL, USA '83 (Prettner, Calypso)[*] Flevohof, Holland '85 (prettner, Supra Fly)[*] Avignon, France '87 (Prettner, Supra Star)[*] Chesapeake, VA, USA '89 (Prettner, Supra Star)
[/ul]
Thought it might be cool to have this written down somewhere.

Tony, he must have been pulling your leg, the song is called "It's a long long way to Tipperary". Tipperary is a town in Ireland... I suspect that Dick's son was not aware of such song in those days. Rare-type sounds like a plausible explanation for how the design's name was coined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_...y_to_Tipperary

David.

MMcConville

My Feedback: (4)

Dick did not built 150 prorotypes. He built airplanes that were sold. Frame ups, he didnt finish or fly them. From the time I met Dick and Guy in the fall of '77 till the time they moved to Utah in '79 or '80 I saw them with/fly 3 models. A wood Curare. I think TonyF later bought that model from Dick. A wood Tioprare, and a glass Tiporare from the WK kit. The latter was Guy's. I remember flying against that model.

Point being these were not prototypes. There was ONE prototype for the Tipo, then the production model.

Yes Tony is right too, Dick was an amazing builder and could pop out models at rate faster than anyone I have seen.

MMcConville

My Feedback: (4)

I should say I saw them with/fly 3 models in the Carare/Tipo family. They had lots of other models, Some pattern, The Sneaky Pete was a unique pattern design of Dicks.

jquid

I would say that the SPA's date cutoff makes sense. Let's say for argument that the Tipo continued to be modified up to today. Would it still be allowed into the SPA as a vintage pattern with no retracts or pipe? Say today's Tipo is carbon fiber structure, pounds lighter, full electric, and can do 3D hovers? Would that still be competitive against a Daddy Rabbit? I could say no tuned pipe on it, so that's legal, and no gear. So I think this is why you need to have something to frame the models in the SPA. Remember it was supposed to be what the weekend modeler could afford, not the high end pattern guys. A Tipo of today could be put into the high end as in my extreme example, but still be a Tipo.

Make sense? or am I whacked?

dphillips3

Make sense? Yes kinda, but explain to me what in the timeline of "non-turnaround" pattern does 1975 serve? I know of nothing that happend in 75' that makes that year stand out anymore than say 78'. Why not make the cutoff date when turnaround died? Please don't say that your 1972 daddy rabbit couldn't compete with my 1978 Tiporare, because if you have been to any SPA contest you would see that the daddy rabbits,dirty birdys,tiger tails etc. that are flying have been built to a newer flying standard. I don't think a modified airframe should be any more legal than an airplane designed after the cuttoff date.

my 2cents DP#3