cloudancer03

My Feedback: (22)

I had heard that the aero tech unit and todd's syassa unit were one in the same but wasnt sure.either way a great electronic switch and at least 8 guys here using it and nev er a problem which is why I have it installed on my wildhare edge.

Speedy-Gonzales

My Feedback: (202)

MTK,
I was wondering if Syassa was using the Tech-Aero unit. This confirms it and substantiates my own personal decision. The IBEC's are nothing new to the market but they have had time to prove themselves as a reliable product that I think will become commonplace.

Thanks for all the great info!

Please keep your comments, views, and opinions, coming.

SPEEDY

MTK

Speedy,

One more thing that wasn't so obvious in the previous discussion, nearly all guys that fly the large IMAC models in my area are using the Tech Aero Ultra IBEC. Although these make alot of sense in small gassies regarding weight savings, they make no sense for weight savings in large IMAC planes.....heck they only weigh a hair more than 1/2 ounce. BUT the IMAC'ers have realized that having a remote switch workable from the TX with a visible ON-OFF LED, is a good safety feature. I like the convenience of this feature a lot since I don't have to reach behind a turning prop after I land to turn an ignition switch off.

There is only one switch to turn on or off and only one battery to charge and maintain. That's a load off one's mind especially if one competes.

Another safety feature that is less obvious is the fact that the channel that controls the remote switching (I use the retract switch), can be set at the correct fail safe condition, OFF. SO IF one loses signal to the RX, the fail safe feature in current radios will kill power to the CDI. Less chance of hurting someone else or yourself. Also much less chance of a flyaway. Someone mentioned that the best IBEC is a battery and switch.....well....can't physically do that with an ignition battery/switch.

Speedy-Gonzales

My Feedback: (202)

MTK,
Once again you are correct concerning weight savings. I too am not that concerned about the weight savings since I am flying 50cc class and up but the features like the LED ignition "on", loss of signal/ignition off, no external switch, voltage regulation, Tx kill, are the real selling points for me. Another great feature is that the IBEC will shut off automatically ( on most units ) if the prop is inactive for more than 30/60 seconds.

The reason I found out that my older 42% ZEUS unit was faulty was when I went to choke my engine with the ignition "off" and it fired! Scared the bejeezzus out of me. Then I decided OK the system is hot with the switch off. I got the engine up and running with the switch "on" again, and then tried the Tx kill switch and she kept on running!

Big safety issue. END OF MY DAY!!!

aussiesteve

Is it just me that noticed those?

The regulations here are that we must have at least a manually operated external switch on any model over 7kg. Models over 25kg need to have a means of shutting the engine down from the Tx that is not operated by closing the throttle stick.

yl5295

My Feedback: (1)

Bill Wike here with Wike RC Products. This thread got my attention since it is centered arround a very good selling product I have. I designed one of if not the original IBEFs and thought I should provide some important info on the thread about what I know about it and what you should look for and be cautious of...

There are a lot of nice features available such as the following: ignition cut off, cutoff with tx signal loss, intentional miss with low battery, LED, adjustable voltage output (not all ignitions are equal), current output capacity (peak and continuous - I have seen ignitions draw from 400ma to 2.8A), short circuit protection, soft start, temperature range, wide voltage input range, but finally and most importantly EMI/RFI/sparf noise isolation. (which no one seems to talk about???)

The biggest problem in powering an ignition from anything besides a dedicated battery and switch is emi/rfi/spark and ground noise getting into the receiver (or the computer chip controlling the IBEF - the key reason they dont turn on and off properly). Same thing with smoke pumps (or any electrically noisy load - like servos) is isolation. Isolation could be optical or filtered in the frequency range that will affect the electronics. I would never recomend using a BEC or regulator to power an ignition module from the RX/servo system. The reason is the battery ground is typically hard connected to the output ground on these type devices. A CDI ignition it has a huge spike on ground when the spark fires. Then more spikes as it charges the CDI system. I've looked at other similar devices as the IBEF and they all have a common ground which is a potential problem. Do a range test and compare results with a range test with a dedicated battery.

The way I tested this theory was to take one of my worst receivers, engine, airplane combo and range tested devices against a dedicated battery. After many attempts I got the same range test results with the IBEF as I did with a dedicated battery (even with the IBEF wrapped arround a plug wire with the cap unplugged so that the spark was arcing). My range was controlled more by how close the receiver was to the engine rather than whether a dedicated battery or IBEF was being used. This setup would fail a range test if the receiver was closer than 10 to the ignition - regardless if was powered with an IBEF or a battery. I almost lost this plane a couple of times because a loose plug cap would cause control interference and once I killed the engine I had full control again. (nice tip next time you get "HIT" - it may not be another radio signal but rather your own airplane causing the interference).

The other problem is these devices fail alot because of the high currents and voltage spikes the spark and ignition cause. Standard regulators and BECs are not designed to handle these spikes. I can run through version numbers and updates to the Wike RC Products IBEFs if you guys really want to hear it but I dont really want to educate my competition on some hard lessons to learn.

Here are a couple of simple tests you can do to tell you if it is potentially safe to power your ignition with a device connected to your RX power system:
#1) Range test it with engine running at various RPMs and compare the device to a dedicated battery (should be single digit percentage difference)
#2) rub your feet accross the carpet on a dry day then touch the output wires of it with a nice static shock and see if it still works
#3) measure the resistance from RX ground to output ground with a multimeter. (if it is less than about 0.25-0.5 ohms it is potentially trouble)...

To prove my point do a range test with 8 high speed servos (noisy devices) plugged into your receiver versus a reange test with one standard servo plugged into your receiver.... the results might surprise you.... its just electronics and physics... very predictable stuff....

A simple fact in point (not a promotional comment): There are over 1000 Wike RC Products IBEFs flying today and not one interference event has ever been reported with about 20-30 warrantly claims/repairs. There have been some turn off and on issues reported but all resolved at this point as far as I am aware.

Bill Wike
Wike RC Products

Speedy-Gonzales

My Feedback: (202)

Thanks Bill!!! Your comments are greatly appreciated and the fact that you personally addressed this forum shows that you stand behind your product 100%. Hearing from the actual manufacturer of a product is far better than any other source other than your satisfied customers.

Thanks again!
Speedy

Speedy-Gonzales

My Feedback: (202)

Bill,
BTW...when do you expect to have stock again? I would like to try your product.

yl5295

My Feedback: (1)

100 units were supposed to come off the line today but one part shortage prevented it. Parts are arriving overnight at assembly line tomorrow morning so 100 units will ship to me monday. I have to fly to silicon valley sunday for several days and then to ATL (at least its not all over the world like it used to be) so probly 10-14 days to get next shipment in to distributor. (This is not my day job... big companies fly me arround to solve these kind of problems for them that IS my day job - so that takes priority).

I realize at current production rates I am not keeping up with demand (probably not even 50% of demand) so I am going to bite the bullet and ramp production to a higher rate which is just more money up front....I keep some here for warranty and the guys I have dealt with since the beginning but I am not really in a postion to handle direct sales yet....I had rather go through distribution....but before buying something less - send me an email... if I can help you I will.... I only get about 200 emails a day so dont be offended if you dont get an immediate response...

Speedy-Gonzales

My Feedback: (202)

Being in business myself I have found that having "Good Worries" is better than "Bad Worries" but no matter what you will have worries of some sort. Do you have another distributor besides TBM? I would prefer to do business with another distributor besides TBM.

I found a new/never used one for sale on another RC website that is a V2. Would you so gratefully honor a warrany on it?

SPEEDY

cloudancer03

My Feedback: (22)

since I have yet to go beyond the 30cc level I cant really say much.I do agree that when you get to the big bad boys weight brought in by a extra battery etc is likely a non issue.with my 30cc WH I think of it as a 120 size airplane except I am using a gas motor so reliable IBEC works for me.

Speedy-Gonzales

My Feedback: (202)

I now have 3 IBEC/IBEF's from 3 different manufacturers. I am going to run/test each unit on 3 different ignition modules on the bench and in the air.

I must thank Ed at Tech-Aero for his lightening fast shipping. It was "freaking fast" so fast you will freak! Even faster than me on a pylon course. That's just "Speedy-Gonzales fast" EEEEEHAAH!!

I will be testing IBEC's from: WIKE R/C, Tech-Aero, 42% Products

I will be testing on ignition modules by: ZDZ Falkon , Rcexl, DA

It may take some time plus winter is coming to NW Ohio which also means the sun will dissappear most of the time.
Winter sucks but this is my home, I have a good stable job, and the spring fishing is worth the wait. ( well...almost! )

SPEEDY

yl5295

My Feedback: (1)

Speedy,

Yes I will honor the warranty on it... however if you are going to review it I can not be sure it is an unused/new unit... email me at [email protected] and let me make sure you have a TRUELY NEW unit if you are going to publish test results....(and I may even drop some future looking prototypes on you depending on the timing and your test plan)....but results have to be published.

Another problem in your test methodolgy is that ZDZ and Falcon will pass with flying colors. Older DAs and newer DAs seem to be very different and have different quircks - you need an old one and a new DA ignition. You need to add to that list the tougher ones.... Please add: Fuji, Zenoaha EI series, and DLE. Also you need to publish the receivers you test with... I think the most problematic ones are the Spectrum (700 I think), Futaba 148 and 149, and the JR 72mhz single conversion series (but they added some fancy ABC marketing name to it)... all great receivers but problematic in this application for different reasons that I will not disclose. I could go on and on - but lets focus on worst case test cases to seperate "the men from the boys". The beauty (or problem) with this hobby is we do not buy completely built airplanes with all of the components pretested to work together. Each airplane is unique where engine, ignition, RX, servos, etc., etc. may be different. If I were to find a problem in the best selling component in the market that caused a problem with my product - I can't call up the big guy and say "hey you are not doing xyz correctly"... they will say yes we are and if you the little guys stuff doesn't work right with our stuff it is your problem....so these types of products have to work right with everything out there ... Case in point - HiTec recently plublished a warning not to do this on their website (but without stating which product had the problem) on certain receivers (likely not my product) - but some product out there is failing and potentially hurting the reputation of my product because people are quick to say - Oh those things dont work because some one mad a bad one and people think they are all equal - when they are not.... So it is easy for Hitec to say IBEFs dont work because a few people tried to do it with products not properly designed for this application... I would welcome HiTec to respond to me as well...

So expand your test suite or otherwise they are all going to look good and about the same - what good is that? If you want to seperate the men from the boys I will show you how... The tests you are proposing is not comprehensive and only hitting the easy to solve part (sweet spot) of the market and therefore not reassuring I would argue - and I call foul before you even start. A nobel jester though.

Don't get me started on fishing........I am a commercial fisherman on the NC outter banks (another hobby) and it is peak season here now and I just tore up my main/offshore boat last weekend - broke the transom mount on one of the outboards pulling a shrimp net... back to what we can catch close to land now this fall with the other smaller boats now but not doing too bad....with the price of gas its probably not such a bad thing...

yl5295

My Feedback: (1)

Guys....

I kinda got caught up on MTKs and Speedyss comments without answering some good basic questions in this thread... see answers below:

Q1) Why would an engine manufacture recomend not using an IBEF:
ANS) ignitions require a voltage in a certain range and they have tremendious current draw for very short periods of time then no current draw. You can not measure this with a multi-meter. If you google CDI ignitions you will find that they charge a cap in pulses much like a spark. Once the cap gets up to voltage it can fire a single spark. To look at the current profile of an ignition you have to put a current sense resistor inline with the battery and then measure it on a digital scope at different RPM. What you will see is very high current pulses for very short periods of time. Regulators can not provide this. Therefore do not try running an ignition from a standard regulator.

Secondly, ignitions generate tremendious amounts of noise... feeding that noise back in to the receiver could be really bad. This could put liabiility on the engine/ignition manufacture. Simple solution - seperate battery - no problems...
SIDE BAR COMMENT) If race cars and car manufactures built the same car the same way every year then wouldnt the same car win everytime?... innovation is how you advance

Q2) Why would radio manufactures recomend against usings IBEFs?
ANS) They are already fighting noise problems and receiver sensitivity issues (especially in 2.4Ghz band)... why let some one plug a huge noise source (like an ignition) into the RX? Servos create enough noise to already cause them enough problems - why even go there with ignitions....
SIDE BAR COMMENT) A good IBEF will generate less noise than a standard servo.... They should quiten down their servos and/or move to 5Ghz (but that will cost them too much)

Q3) Why not just have a second battery
ANS) A good simple solution - I do on most of my planes - but I designed my own charger that can charge about 20 battery packs at one time and can plug them all in the night before I go flying...I am not a good enough pilot to worry about saving 5 ounces on a CF spinner versus an AL spinner. But I would buy an IBEF before spending >$100 on a CF spinner to save 4oz. Maybe what I should really do is design a battery charger that can charge 20 battery packs at the same time
SIDE BAR COMMENT) Bring jumper cables to the field - so that I am not the only one that drained their car battery charging RC planes at the field

Lifer

My Feedback: (1)

I cannot speak to any issues with other radio brands, but the WIKE IBEF has been flawless with Airtronics 2.4 gig receivers.
FWIW.

ghoffman

My Feedback: (3)

I have/had 5 of the Syssa/ tech aero and one of the Wike. All have been flawless, but I prefer the Syssa because it is smaller and not voltage specific (although the newer Wike is not as well). I have run them on RGGF 20, (2) DLE-20, Syssa 30, DLE-30, DLE-55, OS GT-55, DA-60 and DA-120. In addition, my friends have them on DLE-20, DLE-55, and DA-85. The batteries have been Ni-CAD, NiMH, LiFe, and mostly for me,2S LiPo. It regulates the voltage to 5.6V for the ignition so I can run unregulated LiPo's into the HV servos. As far as radios go, I use a JR, but my friends are using them on Hitec A9, and Futaba. Absolutely zero issues, of any type, and I really like the LED that shows if the ignition is hot or not, when I flip a Tx switch. The EMI/RFI feedback into the Rx is a total non-issue and is just a talking point, even with the A9. I cannot see using a separate battery and all the Opto-kill issues anymore.

pilotpete2

Wike units running flawlessly on FASST and DSM2 at our field[8D]
Pete

Speedy-Gonzales

My Feedback: (202)

Great statement Bill!!!!!


That statement jumped right off the computer screen at me. It makes totally logical sense but I am sure you will open up some debate on that one although I agree with you 100%.

The weight debate is simple for me. I started in this hobby flying free flight models and staying light is a throwback to that era of my life and hobby that I have never let go of. I always try to build light but not compromise the integrity of the airframe. There is nothing funny about not paying attention to weight in every detail and then finding that the extra 2 pounds you built into the plane has to be doubly increased due to the CG being off and needing more weight to compensate for weight you did not need in the first place.

SPEEDY

cloudancer03

My Feedback: (22)

great work and good questions.I will say that I talked with the hitec people at the recent neat fair and were unenthusiastic about using a IBEC with the aurora radio.but I fly my syassa unit no issues and todd said he sold over a thousand units and not a single complaint!so I'll keep using an IBEC and try the others too..

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

I can't resist Do you have to buy an IBEC at all?

cloudancer03

My Feedback: (22)

tom not sure what you mean I use the syassa unit on my wildhare..

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Just interested in the replies to the question. I'll refrain from anything more than observation.

a1pcfixer

My Feedback: (7)

LOL!

Get your popcorn ready folks!

Speedy-Gonzales

My Feedback: (202)

Well.....I started this forum and I will be the first to comment.

NO!!! you do not have to buy an IBEC. As humans we have the right to do as we choose unless they do things differently on your planet. ( that is intended jokingly TOM. I know you are a smart man and that California exists within our solar system).

This reminds me of a personal experience of mine as a young kid. Me and a friend of mine had .22 rifles and we would walk the creekbed looking for stuff to shoot at. We seldom hit anything that moved but my friend decided to shoot his .22 at a paper wasp nest hanging from a big sycamore tree. I did not get stung but he did! Right square between the eyes. swelled both of his eyes shut within seconds. I had to grab his hand and run like hell. I went back the next day and picked up his rifle. I remember asking him why he did such a stupid thing and he said he wanted to see if it would piss them off. It did piss them off but the bad part was that he could not see anything.....for 2 days afterwards!

Your question is like shooting a bullet into a wasp's nest. You might expect to get stung! [:@]

Now this forum will go into a big "shootout" over using an IBEC rather than "WHAT IBEC TO BUY" which is the topic of this forum. If this forum now turns into a bunch of argumentative crap I will shut it down and those that wish to learn something about willfully using an IBEC will be sidetracked into listening to a bunch of bickering that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Thanks buddy!!!!

SPEEDY

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Actually, I'm in Oregon[8D]

Just shows how people are willing to believe anything they read It said California when I was residing in Washington, too. That may be an allusion to my point.

See, I made no further comment about the threads base subject matter

Not looking to spark controversy, just trying to observe perspectives. Been stung by a wasp before. On the nose after opening up their nest with a front end loader. The nest was a byproduct of an intentional act completely unrelated to the insect.