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Old 01-16-2012, 05:12 AM
  #26  
Airplanes400
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

Ice cubes are best. You can bolt them, glue them, or tape them to the firewall or cowl. Better than steel, because they are non-magnetic.
Best of all, they are free ... you can make them yourself!
Old 01-16-2012, 05:18 AM
  #27  
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?


ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie

I'm not really sure what they are called but I used them alot when I was flying Blimps for sports teams. If you go to you your local Home Depot or the like, they have Large washers that are square and about 3/16'' thick. They are used to secure framework to foundations and 4 of them are about a pound.

If you decide to melt down some lead, make sure you do it outside and avoid the fumes..........Toxic.

I second that: very toxic.

Gerry
Old 01-16-2012, 05:51 AM
  #28  
geh3
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

Iuse #12 lead shot quite frequently.
First I determine how much is needed after I have mounted all of the
internal components as far forward as possible (so as to minimize
adding dead weigh to any airplane). Then I hang the plane at the recommended CGpoint
using a small simple "block and tackle" rig with 2 downlines, one oneach side of the plane ( this only works for planes
with wings that slide onto wing tubes!). Once the plane is hoisted up a few inches, Iadd various weights
by taping then to the nose OR by taping a small paper cup to the nose and adding the lead shotto that until
the plane hangs "level" . Then Imix some 30 min epoxy and add in the premeasured lead shot. This mix is poured into the
nose cone up front, then the fuse is turned up on it's nose and the epoxy is allowed to cure. Irecheck the CGof course
after the epoxy cures..

For one application, it was difficult to pour the mix in so I made a plaster of paris mold of the nose,then filled this with the epoxy+shot mix
then when that cured, it was easy to glue that in place... see pics
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Old 01-16-2012, 08:16 AM
  #29  
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

Some old desk lamps have a nice chunk of easily machinable/threadable zinc die cast bolted in their base.
Old 01-16-2012, 09:02 AM
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

What's this world coming too?! Don't use lead it's toxic, Don't eat salt, causes high blood pressure, don't eat bacon, sausage or ham, causes colon cancer....on and on and on. Well I say "Damn the Torpedos, full steam ahead!!!" You can buy lead sheets and ingots on E-Bay pretty darned cheap. Stock up before lead goes the way of incandescent bulbs. Sheet lead is great because you can easily form it, but make sure you wear triple rubber gloves and a divers helmet with portable air supply. Wouldn't want to get any of those nasty lead molecules under your finger nails or up your nose!

Happy Flying!

Loopman
Old 01-16-2012, 09:15 AM
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?


ORIGINAL: Loopman

What's this world coming too?! Don't use lead it's toxic, Don't eat salt, causes high blood pressure, don't eat bacon, sausage or ham, causes colon cancer....on and on and on. Well I say ''Damn the Torpedos, full steam ahead!!!'' You can buy lead sheets and ingots on E-Bay pretty darned cheap. Stock up before lead goes the way of incandescent bulbs. Sheet lead is great because you can easily form it, but make sure you wear triple rubber gloves and a divers helmet with portable air supply. Wouldn't want to get any of those nasty lead molecules under your finger nails or up your nose!

Happy Flying!

Loopman

Trvia: Ben Franklyn (local hero here) discovered early the risks, and wrote the following letter. History buffs may find the reading interesting. The year? 1786...

Gerry



The Famous Benjamin Franklin Letter On Lead Poisoning

Phila July 31, 1786 (To Benjamin Vaughan)

Dear Friend,

I recollect that when I had the great Pleasure of seeing you at Southampton, now a 12 month since, we had some Conversation on the bad Effects of Lead taken inwardly; and that at your Request I promis'd to send you in writing a particular Account of several Facts I then mention'd to you, of which you thought some good Use might be made. I now sit down to fulfil that Promise.

The first Thing I remember of this kind, was a general discourse in Boston when I was a Boy, of a Complaint from North Carolina against New England Rum, that it poison'd their People, giving them the Dry Bellyach, with a Loss of the Use of their Limbs. The Distilleries being examin'd on the Occasion, it was found that several of them used leaden Still-heads and Worms, and the Physicians were of the Opinion that the Mischief was occasion'd by that Use of Lead. The Legislature of the Massachusetts thereupon pass'd an Act prohibiting under severe Penalties the Use of such Still-heads & Worms thereafter. Inclos'd I send you a Copy of the Act, taken from my printed Law book.

In 1724, being in London, I went to work in the Printing-House of Mr. Palmer, Bartholomew Close as a Compositor. I there found a Practice I had never seen before, of drying a Case of Types, (which are wet in Distribution) by placing it sloping before the Fire. I found this had the additional Advantage, when the Types were not only dry'd but heated, of being comfortable to the Hands working over them in cold weather. I therefore sometimes heated my Case when the Types did not want drying. But an old Workman observing it, advis'd me not to do so, telling me I might lose the Use of my Hands by it, as two of our Companions had nearly done, one of whom that us'd to earn his Guinea a Week could not then make more than ten Shillings and the other, who had the Dangles, but Seven & sixpense. This, with a kind of obscure Pain that I had sometimes felt as it were in the Bones of my Hand when working over the Types made very hot, induc'd me to omit the Practice. But talking afterwards with Mr. James, a Letter-founder in the same Close, and asking him if his People, who work'd over the little Furnaces of melted Metal, were not subject to that Disorder; he made light of any Danger from the Effluvia, but ascrib'd it to Particles of the Metal swallow'd with their Food by slovenly Workmen, who went to their Meals after handling the Metal, without well-washing their Fingers, so that some of the metalline Particles were taken off by their Bread and eaten with it. This appear'd to have some Reason in it. But the Pain I had experienc'd made me still afraid of those Effluvia.

Being in Derbishire at some of the Furnaces for Smelting of Lead Ore, I was told that the Smoke of those Furnaces was pernicious to the neighboring Grass and other Vegetables. But I do not recollect to have heard any thing of the Effect of such Vegetables eaten by Animals. It may be well to make the Enquiry.

In America I have often observed that on the Roofs of our shingled Houses where Moss is apt to grow in northern Exposures, if there be any thing on the Roof painted with white lead, such as Balusters, or Frames of dormant Windows, &c. there is constantly a streak on the Shingles from such Paint down to the Eaves, on which no Moss will grow, but the Wood remains constantly clean & free from it.We seldom drink Rain Water that falls on our Houses; and if we did, perhaps the small Quantity of Lead descending from such Paint, might not be sufficient to produce any sensible ill Effect on our Bodies. But I have of a Case in Europe, I forgot the Place, where a whole Family was afflicted with what we call the Dry-Bellyach, or Colica Pictonum, by drinking Rain Water. It was at a Country Seat, which being situated too high to have the Advantage of a Well, was supply'd with Water from a Tank which receiv'd the Water from the leaded Roofs. This had been drank several Years without Mischief; but some young Trees planted near the House, growing up above the Roof, and shedding their Leaves upon it, it was suppos'd that an Acid in those Leaves had corroded the Lead they cover'd, and furnish'd the Water of that Year with its baneful Particles & Qualities.

When I was in Paris with Sir John Pringle in 1767, he visited La Charite, a Hospital particularly famous for the Cure of that Malady, and brought from thence a Pamphlet, containing a List of the Names of Persons, specifying their Professions or Trades, who had been cured there. I had the Curiosity to examine that List, and found that all the Patients were of Trades that some way or other use or work in Lead; such as Plumbers, Glasiers, Painters, &c. excepting only two kinds, Stonecutters and Soldiers. These I could not reconcile to my Notion that Lead was the Cause of that Disorder. But on my mentioning this Difficulty to a Physician of that Hospital, he inform'd me that the Stonecutters are continually using melted Lead to fix the Ends of Iron Balustrades in Stone; and that the Soldiers had been emply'd by Painters as Labourers in Grinding of Colours.

This, my dear friend, is all I can at present recollect on the Subject. You will see by it, that the Opinion of this mischievous Effect from Lead, is at least above Sixty Years old; and you will observe with Concern how long a useful Truth may be known, and exist, before it is generally receiv'd and practis'd on.

I am, ever,

Yours most affectionately

B. Franklin

(Benjamin Vaughan was a youthful admirer and close friend of Franklin, who was 80 years old when he wrote to Vaughan. The letter press copy of Franklin's communication is in the Library of Congress, the holograph not having survived. The letter is reproduced here with the original capitalization and spelling.)
Old 01-16-2012, 09:44 AM
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?


ORIGINAL: GerKonig


ORIGINAL: Loopman

What's this world coming too?! Don't use lead it's toxic, Don't eat salt, causes high blood pressure, don't eat bacon, sausage or ham, causes colon cancer....on and on and on. Well I say ''Damn the Torpedos, full steam ahead!!!'' You can buy lead sheets and ingots on E-Bay pretty darned cheap. Stock up before lead goes the way of incandescent bulbs. Sheet lead is great because you can easily form it, but make sure you wear triple rubber gloves and a divers helmet with portable air supply. Wouldn't want to get any of those nasty lead molecules under your finger nails or up your nose!

Happy Flying!

Loopman

Trvia: Ben Franklyn (local hero here) discovered early the risks, and wrote the following letter. History buffs may find the reading interesting. The year? 1786...

Gerry



The Famous Benjamin Franklin Letter On Lead Poisoning

Phila July 31, 1786 (To Benjamin Vaughan)

Dear Friend,

I recollect that when I had the great Pleasure of seeing you at Southampton, now a 12 month since, we had some Conversation on the bad Effects of Lead taken inwardly; and that at your Request I promis'd to send you in writing a particular Account of several Facts I then mention'd to you, of which you thought some good Use might be made. I now sit down to fulfil that Promise.

The first Thing I remember of this kind, was a general discourse in Boston when I was a Boy, of a Complaint from North Carolina against New England Rum, that it poison'd their People, giving them the Dry Bellyach, with a Loss of the Use of their Limbs. The Distilleries being examin'd on the Occasion, it was found that several of them used leaden Still-heads and Worms, and the Physicians were of the Opinion that the Mischief was occasion'd by that Use of Lead. The Legislature of the Massachusetts thereupon pass'd an Act prohibiting under severe Penalties the Use of such Still-heads & Worms thereafter. Inclos'd I send you a Copy of the Act, taken from my printed Law book.

In 1724, being in London, I went to work in the Printing-House of Mr. Palmer, Bartholomew Close as a Compositor. I there found a Practice I had never seen before, of drying a Case of Types, (which are wet in Distribution) by placing it sloping before the Fire. I found this had the additional Advantage, when the Types were not only dry'd but heated, of being comfortable to the Hands working over them in cold weather. I therefore sometimes heated my Case when the Types did not want drying. But an old Workman observing it, advis'd me not to do so, telling me I might lose the Use of my Hands by it, as two of our Companions had nearly done, one of whom that us'd to earn his Guinea a Week could not then make more than ten Shillings and the other, who had the Dangles, but Seven & sixpense. This, with a kind of obscure Pain that I had sometimes felt as it were in the Bones of my Hand when working over the Types made very hot, induc'd me to omit the Practice. But talking afterwards with Mr. James, a Letter-founder in the same Close, and asking him if his People, who work'd over the little Furnaces of melted Metal, were not subject to that Disorder; he made light of any Danger from the Effluvia, but ascrib'd it to Particles of the Metal swallow'd with their Food by slovenly Workmen, who went to their Meals after handling the Metal, without well-washing their Fingers, so that some of the metalline Particles were taken off by their Bread and eaten with it. This appear'd to have some Reason in it. But the Pain I had experienc'd made me still afraid of those Effluvia.

Being in Derbishire at some of the Furnaces for Smelting of Lead Ore, I was told that the Smoke of those Furnaces was pernicious to the neighboring Grass and other Vegetables. But I do not recollect to have heard any thing of the Effect of such Vegetables eaten by Animals. It may be well to make the Enquiry.

In America I have often observed that on the Roofs of our shingled Houses where Moss is apt to grow in northern Exposures, if there be any thing on the Roof painted with white lead, such as Balusters, or Frames of dormant Windows, &c. there is constantly a streak on the Shingles from such Paint down to the Eaves, on which no Moss will grow, but the Wood remains constantly clean & free from it.We seldom drink Rain Water that falls on our Houses; and if we did, perhaps the small Quantity of Lead descending from such Paint, might not be sufficient to produce any sensible ill Effect on our Bodies. But I have of a Case in Europe, I forgot the Place, where a whole Family was afflicted with what we call the Dry-Bellyach, or Colica Pictonum, by drinking Rain Water. It was at a Country Seat, which being situated too high to have the Advantage of a Well, was supply'd with Water from a Tank which receiv'd the Water from the leaded Roofs. This had been drank several Years without Mischief; but some young Trees planted near the House, growing up above the Roof, and shedding their Leaves upon it, it was suppos'd that an Acid in those Leaves had corroded the Lead they cover'd, and furnish'd the Water of that Year with its baneful Particles & Qualities.

When I was in Paris with Sir John Pringle in 1767, he visited La Charite, a Hospital particularly famous for the Cure of that Malady, and brought from thence a Pamphlet, containing a List of the Names of Persons, specifying their Professions or Trades, who had been cured there. I had the Curiosity to examine that List, and found that all the Patients were of Trades that some way or other use or work in Lead; such as Plumbers, Glasiers, Painters, &c. excepting only two kinds, Stonecutters and Soldiers. These I could not reconcile to my Notion that Lead was the Cause of that Disorder. But on my mentioning this Difficulty to a Physician of that Hospital, he inform'd me that the Stonecutters are continually using melted Lead to fix the Ends of Iron Balustrades in Stone; and that the Soldiers had been emply'd by Painters as Labourers in Grinding of Colours.

This, my dear friend, is all I can at present recollect on the Subject. You will see by it, that the Opinion of this mischievous Effect from Lead, is at least above Sixty Years old; and you will observe with Concern how long a useful Truth may be known, and exist, before it is generally receiv'd and practis'd on.

I am, ever,

Yours most affectionately

B. Franklin

(Benjamin Vaughan was a youthful admirer and close friend of Franklin, who was 80 years old when he wrote to Vaughan. The letter press copy of Franklin's communication is in the Library of Congress, the holograph not having survived. The letter is reproduced here with the original capitalization and spelling.)
Hey didn't ole Ben also once fly a kite in a lightning storm? I guess I will add a warning to using lead weights in planes...DON'T SUCK ON THE LEAD BEFORE INSTALLING IN THE PLANE!!! There, now I feel better!
Old 01-16-2012, 10:28 AM
  #33  
cutaway
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

Lead boils just over 3,000F, it would be hard to generate temps like that with a propane torch, so producing lead vapor is unlikely. It melts at just over 600F.
Old 01-16-2012, 10:53 AM
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?


ORIGINAL: cutaway

Lead boils just over 3,000F, it would be hard to generate temps like that with a propane torch, so producing lead vapor is unlikely. It melts at just over 600F.

Well, that makes sense.

A propane torch is a tool for burning the flammable gas propane (C3H8). The maximum adiabatic flame temperature a propane torch can achieve with air is 2,268 kelvins (1,995 °C/3,623 °F). Some propane torches are also used with a tank of pure oxygen to achieve a flame temperature nearing 3,095 kelvins (2,820 °C/5,110 °F).

Name: Lead
Symbol: Pb
Atomic Number: 82
Atomic Mass: 207.2 amu
Melting Point: 327.5 °C (600.65 K, 621.5 °F)
Boiling Point: 1740.0 °C (2013.15 K, 3164.0 °F)
Number of Protons/Electrons: 82
Number of Neutrons: 125
Classification: Other Metals
Crystal Structure: Cubic
Density @ 293 K: 11.34 g/cm3
Color: bluish

Still, I would not breathe in this stuff while it is being melted:-)

Gerry
Old 01-16-2012, 10:58 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

Didn't see anyone mention it yet but, I use the stick on wheel weights. Many high end rims for cars now use these as they are hidden.

http://www.amazon.com/Perfect-Equipm...sim_sbs_auto_1

Also Great planes has some;

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Planes-L...sim_sbs_auto_6
Old 01-16-2012, 11:11 AM
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?


ORIGINAL: All Day Dan

Beavis, You're supposed to keep your ignition system isolated from the radio system by eight inches or more to keep radio frequency interference from interfering with your receiver's reception. You mention that ''both'' batteries are against the firewall. That should be avoided. Dan.
Been flying with All my batteries on top of the engine mount all day long. It's not an issue, don't make T.O.M come back on here
Old 01-16-2012, 11:36 AM
  #37  
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

I use lead shot, but I know of a firing range that collects the used shot and gives it away to me.  It is heavy and when mixed with some epoxy, can be poured into just about any location on your plane.

However, I DO NOT RECOMMEND adding it to a cowl.  That much weight and that much vibration will rattle the cowl bolts loose and there goes your weight bouncing around the engine.

Remember, nose heavy planes fly poorly, but tail heavy planes fly ONCE!

Old 01-16-2012, 12:08 PM
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?


ORIGINAL: GerKonig


ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie

I'm not really sure what they are called but I used them alot when I was flying Blimps for sports teams. If you go to you your local Home Depot or the like, they have Large washers that are square and about 3/16'' thick. They are used to secure framework to foundations and 4 of them are about a pound.

If you decide to melt down some lead, make sure you do it outside and avoid the fumes..........Toxic.

I second that: very toxic.

Gerry
See... another good reason to use ice cubes. Aside from being free, and easy to make, they are also non-toxic ... and friendly to the environment.
Go green .... use ice cubes as ballast.
Old 01-16-2012, 12:32 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

I used dive weights when I was adding several pounds to the nose of my 36% Katana
Old 01-16-2012, 02:17 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

The method geh3 has suggested below is good but I will add a couple of points.

1 - Look up a "Vanessa" balance rig - easy to make and they work on pretty much every plane.
2 - don't forget to subtract the weight of the epoxy you are going to use when determining the lead shot to be used.


ORIGINAL: geh3

I use #12 lead shot quite frequently.
First I determine how much is needed after I have mounted all of the
internal components as far forward as possible (so as to minimize
adding dead weigh to any airplane). Then I hang the plane at the recommended CG point
using a small simple ''block and tackle'' rig with 2 downlines, one on each side of the plane ( this only works for planes
with wings that slide onto wing tubes!). Once the plane is hoisted up a few inches, I add various weights
by taping then to the nose OR by taping a small paper cup to the nose and adding the lead shot to that until
the plane hangs ''level'' . Then I mix some 30 min epoxy and add in the premeasured lead shot. This mix is poured into the
nose cone up front, then the fuse is turned up on it's nose and the epoxy is allowed to cure. I recheck the CG of course
after the epoxy cures..
Old 01-16-2012, 04:44 PM
  #41  
q-500
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

I use a pipe nipple and 2 caps. The size depends on room and how much weight you need then you can fine tune with lead or buckshot and fill it with sand to stop it from moving around and make a plywood cradle and heavy plastic wire ties. I have this set up in all my warbirds and never had a problem George
Old 01-16-2012, 06:16 PM
  #42  
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

Here's a tip for all you e-flight guys out there: Use aluminum noseweight. It's lighter. Me, I use 1/4 by 2 steel flat stock cut to length and stacked if required. Bolt it to the motor-box.
Old 01-16-2012, 06:45 PM
  #43  
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

If I HAVE to add weight, I use heavy duty aluminum foil to make a small rectangular shape that conforms to the area the weight will be placed. Fishing weights are melted witha butane torch being VERY careful not to inhale the fumes created. The last weights I used, I drilled 2 holes in each and simply screwed them to the firewall.
Old 01-17-2012, 12:52 PM
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

Probably the craziest weight I've used lately is sand. Have a large Porter that needed a couple pounds up front, not a whole lot of space to put much that you could reach. The solution that ended up working the best was to take some fine sand like used in tile work, 2 baggies one pound each, sealed, then sealed into another baggie backwards, (so the seals are opposite each other), then the whole thing duct taped. Tie wrapped one to each side of a forward former. The former is big and stout enough that no concerns there. Works great. There are other ways for sure, typically I like to be able to easily remove weight I add etc.. so if something changes later I can adjust, in this case I just have to reach into the nose and snip the tie wraps and pull them out.
Old 01-17-2012, 01:16 PM
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

A big NO to adding weight to the cowl. I make up a shaped mold from foil then melt down lead bird shot and poor it into the mold. That way I can shape it around anything I have attached to the fire wall. It can be screwed on or double sided taped or just some Gorilla glue. Bird shot is very easy to mix with epoxy to shape or even glued onto a fire wall.
Old 01-17-2012, 03:17 PM
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

I use my lead weights that I buy for my duck decoys
they are 6" long x 1" wide about 6oz each
they are very soft / you can fold them or mold them around the fire wall
or what ever you need

happy flying
john
Old 01-18-2012, 11:36 AM
  #47  
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?


ORIGINAL: heavydriver

Lead/ Tungsten Bird shot for reloading shot shell mixed with epoxy. About as dense as you can get. Any good sporting goods out fit should have bird shot.

This is a very good idea - using the lead shot - or the eco friendly metal shot - One can mix it with epoxy or silicone sealant and squeeze it into places where it normally is difficult to lead weights in. Thanks for the ideas!

Cheers
Bundu
Old 01-18-2012, 12:28 PM
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

I prefer depleted uranium; it's very heavy, easy to bolt on the firewall and everyone wants to get rid of it. Seriously, lead (or steel) shot and epoxy get the job done nicely.
Old 01-18-2012, 12:51 PM
  #49  
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?

Hard to find nowadays but I have two 20 lb sacks of lead bird shot.

Mix a slurry of epoxy and lead (after getting the correct amount for desired CG, of course) and pour it where you need it, let set up.

Some gun shops may have the stuff...otherwise, find a friend who also reloads and see if you can get some.

Failing that, I agree with fishing weights and tire weights...melt them down as needed.

Don
Old 01-21-2012, 03:41 PM
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Beavis
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Default RE: What kind of weight/lead do you use to CG balance big planes?


Again, thank you all very much for so many great suggestions and comments.

I have one more question: can one use aeropoxy (Hysol) instead of regular epoxy to mix bird shot or any other form of granulated weight? I'd assume so, but it doesn't hurt to check for potential pitfalls. If so, that would make it easier to apply the mix in certain locations and/or configurations.

Thank you once more,



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