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An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Old 07-29-2011, 07:33 PM
  #151  
doxilia
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project


ORIGINAL: Aurora_60

Sorry about that, I just read the post again. I was pretty tired last night and misunderstood that.
The Skymaster is on hold until after my big move later this year. I'm really excited about having some room to build... and an actual airfield to fly again.

DM
Hey David,

glad to hear that the SM20 awaits your relocation. Please do post some pictures of your progress when you get back to it!

Cheers, David.
Old 08-22-2011, 11:15 PM
  #152  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

My Blue angel 20 is back on the table. Hopfully first flight before end of 2011
[link]http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1149837#post13690945[/link]
check my blog [&:]
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Old 10-12-2011, 11:55 PM
  #153  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Some progress with my Blue Angel 20. Will post som pictures. Hopfully finished before april 2012 ;-)
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Old 10-13-2011, 07:25 AM
  #154  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Good stuff Andreas! We look forward to the progress on your kit. A little balsa work and the nose will come together nicely.

An original BA20 is indeed a rare bird. I will be putting together a glass/foam version of the same model based on a mold that was made from an MK fuse plug like yours. It's an interesting bird but somewhat heavy. I will find ways to make it lighter. Unfortunately, one of the issues with the fuse is that the built in vertical is bent over as Willy the whale's dorsal fin is. Likely the result of weight on it or simply age and "elastic" polyester resin with which the fuse was laid up. It will give me an opportunity to use a vertical design that is more akin to the full size BA. I'm also debating whether to build an airfoiled stab for it.

As part of the conservation effort of this project, I am hoping that the BA20 will be rescued as both a glass/foam short kit using this glass/balsa fuse as a plug as well as a fully framed up balsa model but in the form of a slightly larger scale that I decided to call the BA30 as it is intended for 32 size engines. It is also based on the BA60 plan rather than the BA20 plan. Attached is a simple 2-view of the work thus far on the BA30 plans. The main airframe is done but all the details remain to be done - the hardest part.

David.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:07 PM
  #155  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Your BA30 will be nice
I like the retract, i think about that to. But i want to keep the BA20 as orginal as possible.

My 3 blade prop arrived yesterday. Will need som modification of the spinner and some adjustment of the BA20 fwd bulkhead(engine mount plate)
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:36 PM
  #156  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Andreas,

that will make a nice and interesting prop setup on your BA20. 10x6 seems like a big prop for a classic this size especially on three blades but perhaps your motor calls for them to produce the required thrust? I guess many "25 sized" low KV motors call for 11x6 props on scale models so I suppose a 10x6 is not that big after all.

Will you be running 3s or 4s on it? How many Watts do you expect?

Make sure you post the finished weight when you are done. I'm curious to compare that to the glass/foam version I'll build. That one will of course require a painted fuse and will have a piped 25 for power so no doubt it will be heavier. I'm also considering retracts for it if I can fit a nose gear properly.

David.

P.S. I managed to get a little more work done on the BA30 today. I'm starting to break out parts - whoa!
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Old 10-19-2011, 04:22 AM
  #157  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

My Elec. engine is a AXI 2820/10 1200kv "a bit big?" and 3s batteri. I am not sure about the Watt output.
And the finishing weight will be posted
Just now my workload at work is going uppwards[>:]
But my BA 20 will be airborn this winter[8D]
Old 02-18-2012, 08:33 AM
  #158  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Hello Guys!

I just found this thread interesting as I am also getting interested in the electric conversion of20-30 sized classic MK pattern planes. Here is my Blue Angel 20 electric conversion. Hyperion 3020-10 (922Kv) motor, 10x7E, 4S x 2200 (or 3000 mAh), electric retracts, 1375g total RTF, 600W max (200W/lb). Have been flying since last April. Very exciting in the air. I will soonget Aurora 25, Skymaster 20, Dash 25 (Yoshioka), and will try to obtain more MK classic kitsfrom Japan auction. Hope this helps...

Regards, Vincent
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:48 AM
  #159  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Vincent,

first, welcome to RCU and the classic pattern forum!

Thanks for your interest in this project and also for posting your beautiful BA20 - electric no less!

I'd be very interested in seeing more detailed pictures of the model including the motor/ESC and battery installation as well as your radio and retracts install. I believe I have seen those e-tracts being sold by stores like Hobby King and I was wondering what your experience has been with them. Also, whether you might have any info on how they compare to the more standard 25-32 size electric units that look like the ones below. I believe the ones you are using have a separate amp/controller into which the units are plugged in and then the controller is plugged in to the Rx. I have read that they have a much lower "spike" current draw than the more conventional ones shown below. This of course is good and desirable particularly in e-models that might be powering the retracts via the motor/Rx/servo battery.

Also, might you have RPM and current draw figures for your electric setup, that would be great.

I look forward to further posts of yours.

David.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:58 AM
  #160  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Vincent,

I just sent you a personal message (PM) via the RCU system. I'm not sure whether you are familiar with thread subscriptions and PM's on these forums yet since it appears this was your first post.

David
Old 02-18-2012, 08:19 PM
  #161  
Vincent Lee
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Hi David,

Thanks for your warm welcome and your interests in my model! I was once active at E-Zone, but I just found that RCU has more infos on classic pattern. I will check this site only during the weekend, butI will try to share with you my experiences, if you think it's helpful. The motor/prop combination draws 40A max, which I think is just adequate (unlimited vertical) for the first 1/2 flight. Electric is the way to go for the 20-30 size classic pattern. Yes, the retract is from HK, but I would go withE-flite 10-15 size, instead.The HK thing requires perfect landing everytime, otherwise it will be broken. My nose retract was broken after some 10 flights and I had to replace it. As you would noticed, the BA20 has simply too short nose, and I had to go with the HK. Your planned 30 size would be perfect for the other retracts. As you can see from the picture, my model was already half assembled for the gas powered when I got it from the auction, so the motor is exposed on the other side. It is not that bad in terms of cooling. I also had hard times attaching the nose retract, as the room is tight and was already assembled for fixed LG. You can see a micro servo attached on the retract, which is connected to the rudder control. This works fine. The battery replacement is done through the hole for the nose retract. But this is only possible for the 2200mAh, and for the larger size (3000mAh), I detach the main wng.For the ailerons (2 servos), elevator, & rudder, I use Hitec 65HB servos, and they are more than enough and neutral is good. Finding MK and other classic pattern kits is extremely difficult in this part of the worldalso, so I can nothelp you for this part.Your efforts are important for this reason.

Regards, Vincent
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Old 02-19-2012, 05:31 AM
  #162  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Wow.... It's really hard to find an MK BA20 kit still intact.

David, still looking for templates to restore my defective kit.
Old 02-19-2012, 07:39 AM
  #163  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

David,

What is it that you actually need? A few formers or the entire fuse?

I have a little time this coming week so I might just get it done. As you can see, I've been developing a slightly different small BA but doing the fuse of the original BA20 shouldn't be too time consuming.

David
Old 02-19-2012, 08:02 AM
  #164  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Vincent,

Thanks for the additional info on your BA. I can see how these particular retracts might be a little weak for a 25 size model. As far as access to exchange the battery, that is a good approach. As I can see that modelers might be quite tempted to go with e-power on these classics, I've been thinking about the best way to modify the structures in order to provide access to the battery/tank bay area. Some designs lend themselves better to this than others.

I think you would be quite impressed with the re-work we've done on the "Aurora 30". It's a very well engineered kit with fool proof building design concepts and it is ideally suited to e-power with about 800W. We just need to bring it to production, if we can.

For the BA30, I'd like to make two basic changes to the design. One, alter the top rear deck to have sheeted construction per the BA20 approach, and two, alter the top front canopy area to make it removable providing access to the tank/battery bay. This last change would likely preclude the use of a clear canopy but perhaps this is a sacrifice worth making in the interest of flexibility and ease of kitting. Cooling for the motor would be from the underside to keep the lines clean and sleek.

I'm working on the CAD of three 40 size models at the moment but as soon as those are done, I intend to return to the BA30 first, and the Skymaster 20 second. Hopefully, both the Curare and Aurora will also come to fruition at around the same time.

I've also become quite keen on the idea of an Arrow 25 (part of the original project goals) with piped RE 25-29 engines in mind. E-power would be an easy alternative and conversion on that design. The model would likely follow the design of the MK Arrow 40 as they apparently never kitted a 25 size model.

David
Old 02-19-2012, 10:20 AM
  #165  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project


ORIGINAL: doxilia

Vincent,



I think you would be quite impressed with the re-work we've done on the ''Aurora 30''. It's a very well engineered kit with fool proof building design concepts and it is ideally suited to e-power with about 800W. We just need to bring it to production, if we can.

For the BA30, I'd like to make two basic changes to the design. One, alter the top rear deck to have sheeted construction per the BA20 approach, and two, alter the top front canopy area to make it removable providing access to the tank/battery bay. This last change would likely preclude the use of a clear canopy but perhaps this is a sacrifice worth making in the interest of flexibility and ease of kitting. Cooling for the motor would be from the underside to keep the lines clean and sleek.


David
Yeah if that dude would ever get a little less busy so he could finish it!
Old 02-19-2012, 10:32 AM
  #166  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

What do you think? Will the dude be able to finish it this winter...?
Old 02-20-2012, 01:44 AM
  #167  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

David,

Do you have a plan for the Aurora30 you are referring to? Somehow, i can not see from your old posts in this thread. Top hatch and other mods for electric conversion would be great, and your 30 sized BA would be perfect for me. Good old days classic design coupled with modern electric technology & convenience sounds very exciting! Please keep up the good work for all of us!I will definitely buy some if you can manage to the production stage. Cheers, Vincent
Old 02-20-2012, 06:19 AM
  #168  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Looking for the entire fuselage. Looks doable but just don't have the time to reinvent the wheel. Don't trouble yourself if it'll take time.
Old 04-07-2012, 08:08 AM
  #169  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

The recent post and thread of a beautiful Aurora 25 finished in authentic Aurora paint colors has inspired me to make a post to the thread. The Japanese designs are slowly coming along and having started from 0 in terms of CAD expertise just a couple of years ago, I have made some progress since. The path I chose was longer but I believe in the end will result in better MK designs for this conservation project. I decided to start with some simpler American designs (Bridi's UFO and Dirty Birdy) to gain insight and experience in the whole process. I have learned much in the last two years on all fronts and now am quite comfortable and confident in the design work I can accomplish.

While I have advanced three designs a fair bit (the Skymaster 20, Blue Angel 30 and recently, the Arrow 40 which will be used as a template for the 25 size version) I am hoping that some of the other work that has been undertaken by fellow designers will also be able to be finished. At this point, we could declare a race () to see who of those working on the development brings a drawing and laser layout to completion first! I will be happy with the outcome whoever wins! And if the race is on, it seems fitting to have a prize for the winner; as long as you all agree! If anyone has any suggestions for the prize, by all means, fire away.

Just to summarize which models are under development currently, here they are:
[*] Curare 20[*] Arrow 20[*] Skymaster 20[*] Aurora 30[*] Blue Angel 30

The remaining three classics still to be touched are (minor work was done on the Magic):
[*] Mattlas 20[*] Magic 20[*] Cosmos 20

And just to color this post a bit, other than the new Enya 32 CX RE engines available for RE use, I recently have been researching Czech MVVS engines having bought a couple. I purchased a 21 and a 40, both of which I intended to convert to RE operation. Only one of them (the 40) could be "rotated" as the 21 I bought was a vintage design designated Modela. Unlike MVVS's current GFS/R designs which allow the exhaust to be positioned to the side or rear through a clever internal quadrifoglio porting design (crankcase, cylinder, and sleeve), the older Modela versions didn't allow this.

The engine of interest for the purposes of this thread and currently in production (especially the following three models: Arrow, Skymaster and Aurora) is the MVVS 4.6cc, a 28 size engine which can be used in either side (GFS) or rear (GFR) exhaust configuration. Changing the configuration is a simple matter (having done it with the 40 I purchased) requiring the cylinder and sleeve to be rotated 90 degrees clockwise. The cylinder head must be removed first which gives access to 4 screws located around the sleeve which bolt the cylinder on to the crankcase base. Headers and mini-pipes are available from the manufacturer but Macs and Hatori headers (and pipes) designed for OS, Enya and K&B RE engines may well work for this engine as well allowing it to be used vertically mounted (Arrow) or inverted (Aurora and Skymaster). MVVS also makes an exhaust adapter which would allow a regular aluminum exhaust tube to be used as a header in whatever shape one sees fit to bend for the application (e.g., The Skymaster S-shaped header). Of course, the engine can also be used in SE configuration for any of the other designs that use that setup (e.g. Mattlas, Curare, Magic, Blue Angel and Cosmos). While the Magic 40 and 60 used inverted engine installations with S-shaped headers and concealed fuse top pipes (like the Skymaster), the 20 size version likely won't.

Below are some pictures of the MVVS 28 and its exhaust accessories. This engine costs ~US$123 (E$87) plus shipping and can be purchased from mvvs.nl (Pe Reivers) or direct from mvvs.cz.

David

P.S. For those who would like to see a beautiful rendition of an original MK Aurora 25 kit, here's the current thread:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11030447/tm.htm
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Old 04-07-2012, 08:18 AM
  #170  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project


ORIGINAL: dchuah

Looking for the entire fuselage. Looks doable but just don't have the time to reinvent the wheel. Don't trouble yourself if it'll take time.
David,

I never did get to reply to your last post above.

It's hard to say that re-developing a fuse in CAD from plans takes no time - it just isn't the case. All CAD work takes time but the end results are usually worth the effort. Having said that, the Blue Angel 20 is among the simpler 20 size MK kit designs (with the Mattlas). Unfortunately I decided to go a different route with this particular design as the lines of the BA40 and 60 are really what I was seeking in a little BA. The original BA20 kit, while very nice, has some differences which take it back somewhat to Yoshioka's first prototypes of the BA60.

At some point, I might just get the BA20 done as well as I have a glass fuse version of it.

David
Old 04-25-2012, 07:30 PM
  #171  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Jeff,

I replied to your PM via email. I think you'll find the news encouraging.

David
Old 06-20-2012, 03:45 PM
  #172  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Hi David,

I discovered this forum a couple of days ago while looking for information on the Mattlas 20. I was given an untouched kit by a friend a few months ago and, as winter is here in New Zealand, I've decided to start building it. The intention is to convert it to electric power and I'm currently thinking about how to modify the forward fuselage to accomplish this as allowing for good battery access, cooling and nosewheel steering is a bit of an exercise.

I notice that you have mentioned the Mattlas 20 briefly in the thread and I wondered if there was anything I could do to contribute to your project before I start cutting wood. The whole project seems an interesting idea. No-one in my area flies pattern models so I was surprised at the level of interest in the classic versions, as I had just considered that I was lucky to be given a kit which seemed suited to the level of proficiency that I've reached after a year of rc flying. I do have plenty of building experience though, from years of control line, free flight, boats, cars and now rc, so I'm quite confident of my ability in that direction.

I'm also interested in anything I can learn about electric conversion of these models - Vincent Lee's posts have already been helpful. I was impressed that he has been able to fit retracts as I am finding simple nose wheel steering poses some problems, to the extent that I have considered going with the standard fixed nose leg. I fly off a slightly bumpy grass strip which runs parallel to a fence and I'm doubtful that a fixed leg would track sufficiently well for "no drama" take-offs. Does anyone know how well the original models handled this?

Rex 
Old 06-20-2012, 04:25 PM
  #173  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Rex,

I flew several of the small MK models back in the 80's (the Mattlas 20 was my favorite) that used the fixed nosewheel. Never, ever had a problem with ground handling and flew off a rough grass field. Straight takeoff runs were no issue, and slow speed steering with rudder and blips of throttle was quite effective.

Cheers,
Scott
Old 06-20-2012, 10:21 PM
  #174  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

Thanks Scott,

You've made the decision easy, I'll go with the simple option and save some weight as well. I am surprised that you could steer a trike geared model on the ground with rudder and power blips, especially given that the Mattlas rudder is not huge. I can only assume that it is because of the short coupled undercarriage combined with a long moment arm to the rudder - does that sound right to you.

Rex
Old 10-11-2012, 08:08 PM
  #175  
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Default RE: An MK 20 Size Conservation Project

David,

While reading your response to Jeff's Skymaster 20 build thread I began thinking what RE engines are currently available for the MK 20-sized pattern planes. We used the side exhaust OS 32F ABC and later the OS 32SX in the Curare 20 and Aurora 25 back then. They ran superb and were easily available. I'd probably still go with these.

For the die hard enthusiasts that want the exhaust out back, the choice is very limited - the OS 25VF of course is long out of production and hard to acquire. Enya 32CXL is in production but not available with RC carb (maybe could be fitted with one). OPS 29 I think is not in production, MVVS .28 might be the only one still in production?;. Anyhow, all not easy to acquire...

Then I thought of the (Rex) NovaRossi - they still have production RE engine both in .21 and .28. I included photos below from Planet Hobby. Specs are pretty mighty. They are more like the super high rev OS 25VF DF engines. It makes sense NovaRossi would make these because they produce the top WC racing car engines in the same size. I've not had any experience with them, just thought they might also be an option that's currently available. But don't look at the price, you will not like it!!

Matt
(Switching over here to not swamp the nice Skymaster build thread)
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