Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

As most of you know, one requirement for exemption from the new FAA regulations on unmanned aircraft will be giving notice to airports within five miles of where we're flying (and notice to ATC as well, if there's a tower at the airport). The law also says that modelers flying from a permanent location within five miles of an airport "should" establish an operating procedure with the airport operator (and with the tower, if there is one). The requirement is not limited to public airports.

Some of us may be surprised to learn just how many airports there are near where we fly. I've lived where I now live for 23 years, and I would have bet that there are only two airports in my county: a public airport with a tower and a very small private airport from which almost all the flights are by ultralights. Those are the only airports shown on the sectional charts (and the latest version doesn't show the small airport). So I looked for Airport Master Records on the FAA web site and learned to my surprise that there are 13 airports in this county. Two of them are hospitals, which have helicopter landing pads. Most of the others (maybe all) seem to be just strips of grass in somebody's back yard. They aren't on the sectional charts and some of them may not in fact have any current activities. So far as I can tell from the coordinates, one of them is in a subdivision near my house and I never knew it. And I haven't checked neighboring counties.

Maybe the regs the FAA issues will limit the "airports" that must be notified to those shown on the sectionals, or even to public airports, though the latter seems unlikely. If they don't, and if "airport" means any airport that has been recognized as one and given a number by the FAA, a lot more of us are going to have to notify airports than we may have thought. How many people flying foamies in parks within five miles of a hospital are even going to think about notifying the hospital when we fly?

What this means in practice is that, for a lot of us, maybe most of us, it can still matter a lot what the new regulations say about model aircraft. A lot of these notices simply aren't going to be given, and so, technically, a lot of modelers are not going to be exempt from regulation under section 336.

Sport_Pilot

I don't see any value on worrying about this till the regulations are written.

ira d

I dont think I would worry about it for now also I think it will be up to the FAA to provide us a list of airports and contact info that we need to notfiy.

TimJ

This is not something to worry about at this point. It may be a long time before we need to worry about it........ For now it is business as usual...

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

I'm not suggesting that people worry. The point is that it will matter to a lot of us what the new regs say, despite the impression some of us have gotten that the new law solves all our problems. The AMA has been saying that we should pay attention to the proposed regs when they come out and be prepared to respond, if necessary. I think they're right about that.

JohnShe

The FAA and the CBO (Most likely the AMA) have until September 31, 2015 to put procedures in place and establish agreements. There is nothing to worry about. Just because there are all kinds of places for aircraft to land and take off, doesn't mean you will have to notify or make agreements with all of them or any of them. Don't forget, a helicopter or a balloon can land anywhere. That would make the street in front of your home a heliport.

Sport_Pilot

That is possible, but I doubt it. The FAA has never really made a large effort to regulate models. There is not a large amount of incedents between models and full scale. I suspect they will limit this to active airports and not private one user or inactive airports.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

Are you serious? We won't have to notify any airport of what we're doing? I'm pretty sure Congress wasn't kidding when it wrote section 336. In my experience, legislatures have no sense of humor.

Nobody has suggested that the street in front of your house is an airport. But it doesn't follow from that that a place with an Airport Master Record and a number issued by the FAA is not an airport. I don't mean to insult your intelligence by pointing this out if, but the distinction seems to have eluded you.

JohnShe

That is not what I said or meant. As I recall, you were the one that was concerned about helicopter landing pads at Hospitals. The notification that need to be made along with long term agreements that are needed will be worked out soon enough. The problems is that the AMAand the FAA have not defined exactly who needs to be notified, when they need to notified and even what they need to be told. They have until September 31, 2015 to put this into place. So in the meantime, we just follow the old existing rules and everything will be fine.

Sport_Pilot

The fact that they can land anywhere doesn't mean they are allowedto land anywhere. Still a helicopter landing pad is a heliport not an airport.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

If it has an Airport Master Record and a number issued by the FAA, the FAA considers it an airport. The two hospitals in my county have helipads that are airports by this definition. The street in front of some guy's house isn't.

JohnShe

A medivac chopper can land wherever it is safe to land.

So, am I wrong to think that heliports are also covered by the 5 mile rule? Ithink they might be, but we won't know the specifics until the rules are published for review and public comment.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

I feel like I've wandered into someplace where they speak a language that sounds like English but means different things. If you say we may not have to notify "any" place where airplanes land, you give me the impression that you are saying we won't have to notify any airport. That's what it would mean in my language.

Of course, we won't have to notify places that an aircraft could land if that place is not an airport. If someone had suggested such a thing, you would be right to scoff at it. I have tried to be as clear as possible in pointing out that the "airports" I am talking about are places that have an Airport Master Record, which you can find by going to the FAA's web site, and which have been issued a number by the FAA. I'm tired of repeating this, but as you seem to have overlooked it, here it is yet again. It may be that the FAA's rules, when they appear, will exempt some smaller airports. But maybe they won't: this is something we should keep an eye on.

If I should make an error in one of my posts, I'd be happy to have it corrected. What I don't understand is why you reply to my posts without noting anything I've said that isn't true while making ridiculous references to helicopters landing on your street, which has nothing whatever to do with anything I said.

ira d

I think the FAA will prepair a list of airports that need to notfied in each state and give their location and the AMA will have list of chartered clubs
either the AMA or the clubs will have to look at the FAA list and compair it to the club locations to see if the club in that location needs to contact
the airport.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

That would be a good thing for us, so I hope you're right. It might be a very long list, though, and it would require a lot of effort by someone at the FAA. It could be that they'll just define airport as any place with a number from them, in which case the burden's on us. Or, if we're really optimistic, we could hope that they require us to notify only airports that appear on the sectional charts. That would have the advantages of greatly reducing the number of places that count as airports and of showing us exactly where they are. As far as I can make out, the only location information on the FAA's web site is "approximate" latitudes and longitudes. How "approximate" these figures are, I don't know.

Silent-AV8R

I'm betting that the threshold will be if it is depicted and a VFR Sectional or Terminal Area Chart.

You can view aviation sectionals and other charts here:

http://www.skyvector.com

Sport_Pilot

Iwould think it would be a lot less then the airports on a sectional chart. Even many on a sectional chart are closed, or a private single user strip. I would not expect to be required to notify them. Nor heliports as that does have a specific meaning that may not (or may) applywhen congress uses the work airport. And they fly in real slow and are able to see and avoid better than any other aircraft.

JohnShe

Well, it looks like we are in the same situation. Perhaps I have misunderstood the meaning of your statements just as I feel that you have misunderstood my statements. To begin with, you say that there are a great number of places near you that may be airports or heliports covered under the 5 mile rule. I am saying that that may OR may not be so. We don''t know how the FAA and the AMAwill interpret this rule. So we have to wait and see. That is all that I am saying. As others in this thread have pointed out, the FAA and the AMA have many options for how to do this and it could be very complicated, very simple or more likely somewhere in between, but we have to wait and see, don't we?

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

Maybe we could make a deal: I won't reply to your posts if you don't reply to mine. There is nothing to be gained from exchanges like this. My original post consisted entirely of information I thought would be of interest to some of us, and which is of current interest because it reminds us of the need to keep an eye on the FAA's proposed regulations. You responded as if I had made some sort of argument, and with the inane example of a helicopter landing in your street, an example which had nothing to do with anything in my post. All this verbiage, and yet you seem not to disagree with a thing I said. So what is the point of your posts? You have no information to add, you point to nothing anyone else has said that needs correcting or clarifying, and yet you post and post again, in what looks like an attempt to stir up a dispute where there is nothing to have a dispute about.

Deal?

JohnShe

You are correct, we are in violent agreement. All I am saying is that no matter how we interpret it, it doesn't matter. We have to wait for the official FAAinterpretation. And by the way, I said in front of YOURhouse, not mine. Although my cul-de-sac has plenty of room for a medivac chopper to land if need be.

Top_Gunn

My Feedback: (6)

The rule is that we see and avoid them, not vice versa. If a full scale plane aircraft gets close enough to a model in flight to see it, the modeler has screwed up, nearly always. I am familiar with only two cases in which a model hit a full-scale aircraft. One of the two full-scale aircraft was a helicopter. I doubt that the FAA will make a special rule for helicopters.

As for the sectional charts, there are many more airports than there are airports shown on these. (In my county, one on the sectional chart (two until recently) out of thirteen.) It would be remarkable if the list of airports we have to contact turns out not to include at least everything shown on the sectional charts. But we'll see. Section 336 clearly contemplates notices to uncontrolled airports, as it refers specifically to controlled airports as requiring special treatment (notifying the tower in addition to the airport operator). And there's at least as much reason to notify small airports as large ones.

rgburrill

That is so cool. I guess I better get on the phone

JohnShe

Who ya gonna call, Ghostbusters?

We won't know who to call, what to tell them or even when to call until the FAA and the AMAfigure it out and that could take till September 31, 2015.

Just remain cool, there is nothing to worry about.

Sport_Pilot

That rule applies to all aircraft not just models. I know of one full scale pilot who had his certificate suspended because he did not see and avoid a model. The model pilot was also considered at fault.

Sport_Pilot

I suspect they will require it in all ClassD airspace which would exclude heliports. Heliports do not get a class D airspace because they generallydo not have a control tower, unless located at or near an airport.

I disagree, I don't see that uncontrolled single user airports need to be notified. But the FAA could see it your way.