panther3001

This is just one opinion, but I absolutely love RC and want to share my opinion, in hopes of helping more people get into this hobby! So here goes: I would like to share a document I put together detailing supplies a brand-new beginner will need to get into RC. I have been fascinated by airplanes since I was a little kid, and first wanted my own RC plane probably by age 4. I know that there are many kids out there who would just love to get into RC, but either don't have the $350-$550 necessary to get started using a local hobby shop, or just don't know where to begin.

Modern electric Radio Control changes all that, however, and vastly-improved overseas manufacturers now make very high quality parts at a fraction of the cost of what it used to be.
A beginner in RC can now get a fully functional 4 channel airplane with Transmitter, Receiver, battery, charger, etc.all for only $150-$250!!! I find this incredible. I have ~16 years RC experience and again, just want to share my love of RC and help more young people get into it!

Please feel free to share this document with others, including friends, kids, neighbors, etc, and help grow this very enjoyable, worthwhile, and educational hobby. Let's get more kids off the video games and doing something more worthwhile with their time!

Please see the attached PDF for the file I am talking about.

Thanks!



Download PDF Below.

acdii

You can get started for under $100 with an ultra micro, which is what I did with a UM T-28.  Only drawback is you need a fairly calm day with under 5 MPH winds to fly it.

Charlie P.

What makes a good beginner plane?

Lots of dihedral for some self-correcting traits.

Flat bottomed airfoil usually helpful in building good habits.

Mild stall habits (see above) that do not evoke a high speed or low speed snap or adverse yaw - the advantage of a big, rectangular slab wing.

Large enough to not be overly squirrely, somewhat wind resistant, easily visible, slow.

Topside a different pattern & color from undersides. Bold markings on leading edge of wing.

Accessability of components for repair and maintenance (and adjustments).

Forgiving landing gear and sturdy firewall for hard landings.

Reliable engine (or motor).

Sturdy and easily repairable. Replaceability of components a plus (gear, wing, etc.)

Receiver compatable with buddy-box of club/instructor.

Familiarity of model by instructor.

acdii

#! item needed for this................PATIENCE

panther3001

True, but the price I'm quoting (~$250) *includes* a separate 50W all-chemistry charger/discharger (with power supply), as well as a hot glue gun, epoxy, packing tape, spare battery, parallel charge board, etc. etc. I'm trying to be more realistic by really taking into account basic building supplies and necessary equipment to make the hobby more practical and fun. see my full list inside the PDF in my first post.

opjose

Foamies, are usually not the best "beginner" planes, which is why larger balsa/ply trainers remain the norm for club instruction and classes.

There certainly are decent "go it alone" foamies out there, including the ones you cite...


However the best single piece of advice you can and SHOULD give to a beginner, even before you start to discuss planes, is to "join a club".

BTW: they can typically obtain larger, better trainers from club members looking to move up...

Many of our newbies this year obtained entire setups from other members for around $100.00 or so.

A great resource: >> >>> [link=http://www.gettingairborne.com/index.html]Click me![/link]

Chucksolo69

Great advice all, but, what happens if the newbie doesn't have access to a club? Suppose the nearest club is 200 miles away and he/she still wants to fly? What do you say then: "Don't even try?"  I truly believe that is why companies like Hobbyzone/Horizon Hobby are introducing planes like the Champ and Firebird Stratos. You guys can't all assume that everyone wanting to get into the hobby has the resources you or I have.

Charlie P.

That's why Iencourage them not to invest in something that will last three seconds. Some clubs even supply the student aircraft.

If it is to beself taught or nothingthen buy something cheap as it will be getting knocked around. I have had three small electrics and they ALL are harder to fly than larger glow models like LT-40's, RCM 40's and Hobbico or Avistar trainers. In fact, they're harder to fly well than my low wing sport tail-draggers. I just bought a GP F-86 (15"edf jet) and the hand-launched maiden was hair-raising and the first three seconds took a year off my life. WAY out of trim and not much trimable without aircraft surgery.

I learned R/C on a two channel glider. Still a great method (though I seldom see anyone flying one). Big, slow, easy to see and when every landing is deadstick it pays big time later in life when the prop stops and the sweat starts.

Simulators help, but they teach you how to fly and operate simulators - not model airplanes. At least you can get some familiarity with the controls.

Don't try learning on a street or road. It looks wide until you actually start trying to take off or land. Too many hard obstacles.

A large percentage of"go it alone" flights with muitiple servo ailerons end rapidly because of reversed ailerons. To bank right the left aileron goes down and the right aileron goes up (when viewed from a cockpit perspective).

And it would still be worth a 400 mile round trip to have an experienced pilot pre-flight and then trim in flight the model and set-up the transmitter (if its a kit especially). Little electrics may fall out of the box ready to go, but the more you do yourself the more likely it will need some tweaking for balance and flight trim.

Sure, you can teach yourself. I kit built a Sig Kadet in the 70's and taught myself. Somewhat. Rebuilt it several times, got discouraged, (it was so heavy from glue and patches and soaked-in fuel thatit had to be hand-launched off grass), and Isold my R/C stuff and spent 20 years not flying R/C. At the time, for me, that Kadet and radio gear was a big investment and a bitter defeat.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Go onto YouTube and look up variations of"RC Crash" to see how long it takes for the "FAIL!" tag to pop up.

I care enough about strangers to discourage trying to teach yourself to fly. Sure, the Wright Brothers did it. After years and years of slow, careful experimentation, trial and error and a LOT of smashed models. If they has started with a P-51 they'd both have died unknowns. ;-)

Speed is life, but not if you can't control it.

opjose

I don't think anyone even said that.

The correct response as Charlie pointed out is "make the trip, it is worth it!".

All too often we find that people who come here and claim that there is no club within 200 miles either live in Alaska, or haven't looked hard enough.

The AMA web site has a nice resource to find local clubs.

I truly believe that is why companies like Hobbyzone/Horizon Hobby make money... that is not to say their designs are bad, but there are much better ways to get started and assure success.


I haven't seen anyone asserting that here. Quite the opposite in fact....

Finding and joining a club is almost always the cheapest route, even if you have to go out of your way to get to a club.

Chucksolo69

Well, I was asking the question because circumstances do exist where a potential hobbyist just wants to fly informally and not necessarily get that deeply involved. I think the companies mentioned realise that. I think one has to look at all aspects in today's environment. Does someone who buys a Champ want or need to join a club? Maybe,maybe not. If he is there just to enjoy that one plane then the answer would be no, however, if he plans to get really into it, then yes, joining a club might be the way to go. It's intersting because over on the heli side, you almost never read of anyone there mentioning joining a club to a newbie heli pilot. Why is that I wonder? Helis can be just as dangerous, if not more so than fixed wing of the same size. After all, from personal experience, helis are infinitely harder to fly. Strange.

opjose

That really doesn't change matters though... a club is still the best way to do it.

We have people that fly "informally" all the time at the club.

They realize that there are novices out there, sure.

They realize that they can market products specific to the novice. Check.

But that's all it means.

Want and SHOULD are two different things.

Many people don't WANT to join a club, but they end up finding that they should have done that from the start, to save themselves tons of aggrevation and grief.

So if I want to own just ONE giant scale gas plane, the answer would be no?

Doesn't that sound a bit irresponsible if not silly?

If so, is it then a matter of nothing but scale?

Nope... there is more to it than just flying the plane... there are "learning to be responsible". Flying only in appropriate areas... etc. etc. etc...
And all of that applies to the small planes too... and the clubs help establish and train new pilots accordingly.

There are always exceptions to the rule... if you own a large parcel of land and can fly safely on your own property and are willing to stomach the expense of crashes... more power to you...

But recommending that novices forgo the club route is bad advice.

I wonder where you got that? It sounds like a generalization not a statistic based upon erroneous conclusions.

Most clubs do not have formal Heli training programs, so novices are encouraged to learn on the simulator FIRST then go out to the club and learn on the real thing.

Formal training is difficult since you cannot buddy box a heli.... so you don't hear much talk about it... but you're effectively equating two disparate things.

Strange indeed to draw this parallel. It really doesn't apply.

Chucksolo69

I have been a member of this and other RCforums for a long time and if you go over to the Heli section you almost NEVER see posts saying to go to a club to learn heli flying. No need to get insulting. I have done much reading on this and other RC boards. Like I said, whether clubs have heli training or not is not what I said. I said almost no one in the heli areas of these forums mentions joining a club as pretty much a mandatory thing before you begin. That seems pretty much particular to RCairplanes. I never recommended novices NOT going the club route. I am just asking simple questions. It seems you are taking this personally opjose. Who says you can't buddy box a heli. I have a cousin and other friends who have buddy boxed a heli successfully. Why is it strange to draw the parallel? Both are flying machines. It does apply. I guess it just boils down to why many on the airplanefroums think it is necessary to join an airplane flying club but not so much with RC helicopters? Just askin'?

opjose

Personally? No... but it is detrimental and upsetting to give bad advice to a newbie, even when well intended.

While you will find many club training programs that use buddy boxes on planes, this is practically never done for helis.

Why? Helis respond far too quickly to make this viable. ( and are too low to the ground when teaching novices ).

As a result clubs forgo buddy box training and tend to advise novices to learn on a simulator first.

That you've done it with a cousin is not relevant.


You assume that "no one mentions joining a club to a novice heli pilot", that is not true.

You seem to be making that assumption because you rarely HEAR about it in these forums. Why? Because most clubs do not have buddy box type training programs for helis for the aforementioned reasons.


Just answerin'

"not so much with RC helicopters" is simply not true.

That impression is easy to get because heli training involves a completely different road.

panther3001

I disagree with this. I understand the norm for club instruction remains balsa/ply glow planes with monokote, but I feel the reason for this isn't because foamies aren't good for beginners, I would argue rather that the reason is that the people dominant in clubs are retired folks who have been flying since long before I was born, and are simply used to what they've always been using and afraid to make the transition to what they have always known to be "inferior." Electric planes have been light, expensive, underpowered, weak, and just plain lousy as long as they've been around...up until just a few years ago. They were always inferior, and have only been able to compete with balsa/ply/gas/glow planes for a few years now, and I think it's just "too new" for most old-timers (I say this respectfully) to feel comfortable with using them.

Foamies aren't what they used to be....at all, and I have grown to have a great respect for them. I've flown the Hawk Sky. I've trained a buddy on the Airfield Sky Trainer 182 (both planes are in the PDF I posted), and I love them both. EPO foam is not styrofoam (EPS). Good planes aren't made from styrofoam anymore. Motors aren't brushed anymore. Motor batteries aren't AA NiMH/NiCad's anymore. I was trained on a Tower Trainer 40 with an OS 46 FX engine. I was 11 years old when I bought it, and I had to raise and sell cows for years to afford it all. I wish I'd started when I was 8, when I first was serious about it, but I hadn't sold enough cows by then yet. Chinese foamies are very high quality these daysIF you read reviews and choose somewhat carefully.

So back to balsa: I was frustrated with my Tower 40 at age 11. I wanted to fly fly fly, not struggle through a build. Foamies are put together in just a couple hrs. Now durability: I've crashed my Tower Trainer 40 and broke it in half twice. It was tough to repair. I watched my friend I was training plow his Hawk Sky into the ground at full speed from 200 ft high (the wing fell offnote: TAPE IT ON), and we had it fixed with tape and epoxy (I'd now recommend hot glue and tape more than epoxy and tape) and flyign again in just 1 hr.

Also, good foamie planes are bulky enough, powerful enough, and streamlined enough now to only have slight handling disadvantages to balsa planes. Additionally, a good club guy will throw a $9 Detrum GY48V gyro (from xheli.com) on the ailerons for the newbie if he really knows what he's doing, and then it flies more like a balsa plane anyway, and acts like a heavier plane. I want experts at teh field to learn what I'm saying just as much as I want newbies to learn it.

-but as for the club. YES definitely get help and join a club! And YES look into buying members' used stuff for good priceseven if it's balsa!

PS. I mean all this with the deepest respect. My trainer was a very nice 60-some-odd-year old Don Sandquist, and I very much appreciate him and his serious help. When I busted my plane in half the second time a very nice 70 yr old club member is who helped me repair it. I couldn't have done it without you guys! However, keep in mind the average club member has way more money and time than a kid who needs a good, ECONOMICAL EPO foam (or EPP) trainer to get started, and I am looking out for those guys. I've always been the youngest member of any club I join (to this day even, at age 27) and I'd like to change that!

panther3001

Charlie, thanks for sharing your story. Someone certainly needs to check over any beginner's plane. As for the electrics though, you can get 4 lb, 37 lb, 100 lb, 250 lb, you-name it electric plane flying today, so "larger glow models" doesn't really apply if you know what you're doing. And take note, if you're a beginner reading this, learn from Charlie and NEVER BUY AN EDF (ELECTRIC DUCTED FAN) JET TO START!!! Download and read my PDF file in Post #1. I hope I've made that clear.

at101

Foam airplanes are good for park fliers. Balsa planes are also good for park fliers. But a foam airplane should not be made in a larger than park flier size. It would look like it snowed when the plane crashed.

acdii

Man you who are knocking something like the Apprentice, have not flown one. It is very easy to fly and learn on and is a lot more resistant to hitting something than a stick and ply plane. I flew mine into a barn and had it repaired in under an hour, had it been my T-34 it would have taken days to repair.  Is it a little trickier in wind, yes, but thats what makes you a better pilot. I have flown mine in winds as high as 15MPH and was able to take off and land without incidence.  The fact that it doesnt weigh more than a few pounds is also a plus since if you do have a bad landing it will bounce and flop around without breaking in most cases, and if you do break it, you can repair it quickly and be back flying again.  Lets see you cartwheel one of those heavier trainers on take off and still manage to take off and fly without damage.  It is also easy to hand launch if there is a cross wind and not enough room to take off into the wind.

Crack a wing, some Gorilla glue and tape and a couple hours to cure, ready to fly, crack the fuse, same thing.  Far less discouraging when it is easy to repair than a balsa and ply plane.

I fly both electric and glow with a Kadet LT40, and it is more stable than the Apprentice, but it is also larger, and heavier and will bust up if it lands wrong. Already busted a wing on it when I hit something, had I hit the same thing with the Apprentice it would have bounced off with maybe a dent in the wing. The Apprentice was my starter plane and is fun, the Kadet is my step up plane and a joy to fly, but I still like flying the Apprentice because it is so stable and can fly slow or fast with the same stability and I can fly it in smaller fields where I cant fly the Kadet, or even the T-34.  Larger than a park flyer, but still small enough to fly in a park.


Don't knock something because you don't like it or compare it to something you had problems with.

+1 on the club.

at101

The only problem I have with foamies is that when you hit something yes you can tape it back together but you are left with these ripples in the foam. I think that fomies are awesome and Ilove thembut I would not buy a big one.

acdii

Well I do have some scrapes, but no ripples. The wing and fuse are solid foam, not panels like some others I have seen. The only parts that can ripple are the fin and stab.  I have had to replace the fin, when you smack a barn and the tail hits it it tends to crack pretty good, tried tape, but it was too unstable.  I keep a small stash of parts, like the stab and fin, motor mount and the original wing that I repaired.  The fin and stab take about 10 minutes to replace, the motor mount about a half hour. I have flown it into a tree, flew it into a pole, flew it into the ground, a lot, cartwheeled it on landing, and take off.  The last one that caused damage was a crosswind takeoff where I didnt quite line it up into the wind and got it flipped over, which knocked the firewall off. Went back on with some silicone gasket maker, and that took only a few minutes to take off the prop, and cowl then glue it back on, but had to wait overnight for the silicone to set up. 

Had the Kadet gone through all that it would have been in a lot of pieces and would not look as nice as it does.  I took out all my bad flying on the Apprentice so that my Kadet would look pretty for a long time I think it made me a better pilot since now when I fly my latest plane, a Deweyville special with a DLE20 gas engine, I can stay ahead of the plane, which is good because that engine puts out a lot of power and makes the Dewey a tricky plane, it is not a trainer, it is more along the lines of a Cub. Its within a couple inches wingspan of a 1/4 scale cub but has a long fuse. When I throttle up after a low speed pass it will turn left with a slight down on the left wing, so I have to compensate with rudder when I throttle up.  I give the credit for this to learning to fly on the Apprentice.

panther3001

acdii, +1 and +1 on your last two posts! I've experienced similar crashes and I love the durability and quick repair of all of the EPO foam planes (these include Z-foam, Elapor, etc.). You said it perfect. A serious crash on a good foam plane results in......a 1 hr repair and back to the field! A minor hard landing on a balsa plane results in a break, and a crash results in a pile of sticks, or at best a 3-5 hr repair. Durability of the plane is a huge factor in selecting a good beginner plane, and EPO foam is the best yet! PS. It's only been around since approximately 2007-2009 as far as I know, so it's a very new thing to enter RC, and the majority of the seniors at the club (ie: just about everyone at the club ) still haven't experienced its wonders.

panther3001

at101, I've experienced the ripples. Smashing the Hawk Sky glider into things really hard results in them along the nose, but it still flies great. Looks aren't everything. Getting a beginner flying again the morning after a crash (or the same evening for that matter) is what matters to me.

Charlie P.

Funny, but Ifind thethings Idon't like are the ones I ammost likely toknock.

panther3001

PS. Here's a good example of a plane NOT to get for a beginner. Only $38 (plus shipping) for the EPO flat-plate plane, plus motor and ESC. Great deal, and I've had ton of fun with it. I've crashed it about a dozen times, with about 5 of those being serious crashes. It's been repaired a lot but taken the abuse relatively well. Much better than a balsa plane to learn 3D on, strictly due to PRICE AND DURABILITY. Once you graduate from this one though, I will admit balsa will handle better and be more crisp, and a full airfoil beats a flat-plate. Nevertheless, awesome plane (for an INTERMEDIATE to ADVANCED flyer).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyqrlkpBXmY[/youtube]

nitro wing

My Feedback: (1)

25years ago I built heavy kits and was self taught or more like self destruct, many times over, very steep and frustrating learning curve.and expensive.

Today, with all the low cost ARF's and RTF;s and sims, self taught is much more realistic.
However, a GOOD instructor is invaluable and will turn a new pilot into a good pilot quickly.
I know of too many "experienced" guys who can still barely fly circles and get it back down after 15 years.. they never took on the skillset from a good instructor, and never advanced beyond beginner status.

Ground school is a big factor, learn to understand the airplane and flight, repairs and maintenance.

mike109

G'day

A good beginner plane is one that the beginner feels happy flying and is able to learn fairly quickly on. Different beginners will need different planes. The older the beginner, the slower, larger and more stable the plane needs to be.

The engine needs to be simple and easy to handle. Radio gear should be simple enough for him to understand but flexible enough to allow some growth.

As a general rule, scale models do not make good trainers. A Cub may look like a trainer but they don't fly like one. My Decathlon looks like a trainer but can be a real pain on the ground if it is not handled sensitively. Most trainers are happy if you slam the throttle open and go. Scale models generally are not.

When I started to fly RC models back about 1990, my teacher talked me into a fairly slippery and aerobatic model with a largish engine. He liked to fly fast models. It did not last long. He crashed it when the elevator horn pulled out of the elevator in a Split S he was doing. What I really needed was a slower bigger model like the Kadet Senior and I eventually bought one and that was where I started to get somewhere.

I use the Kit version of the Kadet Senior as my first trainer to teach new comers. I use my own plane initially until the person gets a feel for flying and can fly a reasonable tidy circuit. At this point I suggest one of several different models depending on how the learner is going. I suggest the Kadet Senior to learners in the 50s and beyond, the LT-40 to those between about 30 and 50 and for the young ones under 30, then just about any trainer will do.

To people who want to become independent quickly or who cannot come to the field often, I suggest a powered glider like the Radian. I also suggest a powered glider to all my students who want to get stick time with a model that is not likely to suddenly develop a mind of its own and crash.

I think beginners should keep flying trainers until they can do everything that the model can do. Do pretty near perfect landings every time, not be afraid of a dead stick and be able to start it, repair it and keep it in good airworthy condition. At this point, they are ready to move on to more aerobatic or scale like models. Sadly, too many move away from their trainer too quickly and they usually pay the price in smashed models.

So in short - it is horses for courses. Each beginner has slightly different needs. Each has a different budget and different aims. The trainer should meet his immediate needs and help him towards his eventual aims. It might be balsa or it might be foam. It might be electric or it might be glow. It will usually not be a small fast, highly maneuverable model but something more stable and larger if possible.

Cheers

Mike in Oz