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How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

Old 06-24-2012, 05:31 AM
  #126  
mikeh251
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

Thanks for the great post Steve. (the long one a few posts back) I wish there were many more like you in the hobby. Teaching anything requires certain qualities which you talk about. That is, if you were teaching me. Someone else may need a different style and approach. I also play guitar and golf. I never took formal lessons in either of these fields either but I have learned from others. Some are able to help me and others aren't. Sometimes its me, sometimes its them.

Someone mentioned how only one out of (however many) stick around and its just like that with other hobbies too. If we really want it enough, we will figure out the path.
Old 06-24-2012, 06:05 AM
  #127  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

What?? I didn't know they are planes that comes in a teach yourself to fly, box. Preposterous.
I started a thread in the Begginers forum about my opinion on self teaching. I think it's impossible. To do a couple of laps and land successfully doesn't mean you know our hobby.
Old 06-24-2012, 06:51 AM
  #128  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

Here's the one thing I found about a club back when I wanted to first get started in it. The majority of pattern flyers were arrogant, and hogged the airfield to do repetitive flying, over and over and over again, so I never had a chance to even run up my engine. This was back in the days when there were AM radios, with few frequencies to work with.  

There was one guy who did attempt to help me, he was a pilot for American Eagle, and was also a member of the Lima Lima's, and I will never forget him. He got my little ARF up in the air, trimmed it out and handed me the radio. He had me flying circles, and even a loop, and after a few  minutes I had a big ol smile on my face, then it turned to horror when the plane suddenly decided to no longer respond to the radio.  It fly into a tree, and eventually fell down. I picked up the pieces and thanked him for the help and drove off.

Before that day though I had the field to myself, and attempted to fly it myself. I promptly crashed it on take off.  I fixed the plane and a week later asked for help when I met this guy.    The reason I gave it up though is cost, I just could not afford it at the time. The reason I shy away from clubs is some of them are arrogant, air hogs, and wouldn't give you the time of day, and yell at you if you even breath on their plane.

However, being a know it all when you know nothing, and then bragging about it to someone who knows you dont know jack, can turn some who want to help away from actually helping.  The guys who have the patience to help others like this are Gods, and hats off to you guys.
Old 06-24-2012, 07:12 AM
  #129  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?


ORIGINAL: lopflyers

What?? I didn't know they are planes that comes in a teach yourself to fly, box. Preposterous. To do a couple of laps and land successfully doesn't mean you know our hobby.
NO! But its a start!


If you take a look in the hobby shops there are RTF airplanes that are being sold mostly low end that approach people to get into the hobby. The box often says something to the effect "Learn to fly R/C". Most of these are park fliers sold at inexpensive price points making them very affordable entry points or gifts. Just look at the number of coax helis that are out there really cheap to purchase. I only wish that things would have been as inexpensive as they have become when I started modeling.

I purchased a little airplane for my grandson at Harbor Freight one day for about $30 when he was about five. A very simple airplane "The Yellow Bee" setup with two pusher props controlled by differential power for steering nothing else, one stick for a throttle, the other controls the differential of thrust between the motors basically an inefficient plastic powered glider. It flies OK, pretty bulletproof, but not the best for sure. But, you know what he has had fun! He is now seven I'm buddy boxing him on one of my gliders. He is also flying the simulator, and will soon be on the cord with a trainer. So its not all bad because there is a real need for more people (especially the younger group) to become interested in our hobby for it to remain healthy and survive.
Old 06-24-2012, 07:13 AM
  #130  
levram1
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

+1
ORIGINAL: acdii

Here's the one thing I found about a club back when I wanted to first get started in it. The majority of pattern flyers were arrogant, and hogged the airfield to do repetitive flying, over and over and over again, so I never had a chance to even run up my engine. This was back in the days when there were AM radios, with few frequencies to work with.

There was one guy who did attempt to help me, he was a pilot for American Eagle, and was also a member of the Lima Lima's, and I will never forget him. He got my little ARF up in the air, trimmed it out and handed me the radio. He had me flying circles, and even a loop, and after a few minutes I had a big ol smile on my face, then it turned to horror when the plane suddenly decided to no longer respond to the radio. It fly into a tree, and eventually fell down. I picked up the pieces and thanked him for the help and drove off.

Before that day though I had the field to myself, and attempted to fly it myself. I promptly crashed it on take off. I fixed the plane and a week later asked for help when I met this guy. The reason I gave it up though is cost, I just could not afford it at the time. The reason I shy away from clubs is some of them are arrogant, air hogs, and wouldn't give you the time of day, and yell at you if you even breath on their plane.

However, being a know it all when you know nothing, and then bragging about it to someone who knows you dont know jack, can turn some who want to help away from actually helping. The guys who have the patience to help others like this are Gods, and hats off to you guys.
Old 06-24-2012, 09:34 AM
  #131  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

ORIGINAL: lopflyers

What?? I didn't know they are planes that comes in a teach yourself to fly, box. Preposterous.
I started a thread in the Begginers forum about my opinion on self teaching. I think it's impossible. To do a couple of laps and land successfully doesn't mean you know our hobby.
agree totaly, but if memory serves me correctly. even Horizion's "old" website have a catagory "teach yourself to fly", included the Alpha 40,60, mustang pts, raptor, however now I see they use the wording, "once you've mastered the basics with the help of a flight instructor". then theres websites that consider this a trainer; http://www.nitroplanes.com/93a400-sk...black-arf.html
Old 06-24-2012, 09:45 AM
  #132  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

when I goggle RC airplane, the first thing that comes up is nitroplanes then bannana hobby, this is one of bannana hobbys "beginner" aircraft;
http://www.bananahobby.com/1254.html if you scroll down and read under FEATURES, it says "best choice for beginner"
Old 06-24-2012, 10:23 AM
  #133  
bogbeagle
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

Well, the Banana Hobby' product doesn't look like a trainer ... but it might fly like one. I'm only speculating, of course, 'cos I've never handled one of those models.

Doesn't a well-known firm make a P-51 which they classify as a trainer?

I mean, why fly a "box" if you can fly something attractive, for the same price?
Old 06-24-2012, 11:01 AM
  #134  
Steve Steinbring
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

Hanger 9 makes the P-51 MKII which is a standoff scale airplane that comes with leading edge devices and flaps set to a point where it slows the airplane down to be a trainer. The idea is that you can later remove the leading edge devices clean up the flaps and you now have a sport standoff P-51 to fly.

I've instructed a few students with that airplane, its OK as a trainer but IMO its not the best choice. Trying to do too much with one airplane. Its kind like recognizing that both a canoe and an ocean liner are each boats, but neither of them will do exactly what the other will effectively. Once all is said and done the MKII cleans up into a pretty nice little sport flier.
Old 06-24-2012, 01:11 PM
  #135  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

i learned on the p51 mk1, strongly suggest it more for the younger generation lol, but we actually had a guy show up at the field with one of those 2ch planes wanting to learn how to fly with it, but that's just it, some of these retailers or manufactures are the cause behind some of the problem if not most of it. labeling/selling planes as "beginner" aircraft
Old 06-24-2012, 03:46 PM
  #136  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

The Eflite T-34 PTS Is also rated as a trainer. It does not handle like a trainer, but it does have a much slower flying speed than a non PTS plane.  I wouldnt recommend it to someone just starting out, but makes a good second plane once you learn the basics.
Old 06-25-2012, 04:23 AM
  #137  
jester_s1
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

For the low-end "teach yourself to fly" market, P.T. Barnum is proven right. There really is a sucker born every minute. It's not completely the manufacturers' faults. They are just supplying what the market wants. The real issue is cheap people who somehow work it out in their minds that a $100 Chinese knockoff that looks sorta like the real thing is the same as a $400 hobby grade piece of equipment. The same people don't want to work at gaining the skills for the hobby, so the market is full of junky products for them. On the other hand, there are those minority of pilots that really are satisfied to fly around in circles in a field every once in a while, and planes like the Champ or the Super Cub serve that role very well.
Old 06-25-2012, 04:57 AM
  #138  
Steve Steinbring
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

Jester s1,

There all levels in this hobby! What people purchase is simply up to them based upon their experience, their interest, and personal budget. IMO its not up to me to judge others on those issues. Yes, a lot of that merchandise is of really questionable quality meant to catch the interest of people ignorant to the hobby. As an instructor I do advise what new pilots should purchase for their first airplane, which would be a decent trainer. Whether or not that advise is followed is up to them. Most people step up in the quality of their aircraft once they get themselves familiar and grounded in the hobby.

Personally I have a hanger full of what you call "hobby grade" aircraft some are sport fliers, gliders, pattern birds, couple of trainers, scale birds, and so forth. But, I get just as much enjoyment out of flying my Micro T-28 from Parkzone a cheap airplane one might call a novelty. IMO the cost is not necessarily what its all about, to each their own as long as it is safe.
Old 06-25-2012, 05:19 AM
  #139  
Sherv
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

I was self taught... However when I started going to my local club I never rejected any advice since I believe everyone knows something I don't (from experiences they have had). I believe this in everything... Work... Hobbies... Current Events... and so on.. No one can know everything... But in a group everyone can contribute something that they know or experienced that is insightful.

That said I tell people join a club to learn but if you asked me "Would you learn alone again?" I would say yes with a grin. Only I wish I did not get so cocky in my skills as I was developing them.

I see some have complained about cheap planes and I agree.. However there are good cheap planes out there the problem is research is required.

Learning to fly alone taught me a lot of things.... What to look out for each time I fly, check all control surfaces, hinges, control horns, servos, batteries, how to repair broken wings/stabilizers, I learned that smooth and small corrections are best, and to be calm. You can learn all these from an instructor but because I flew a lone it is all burned into my mind with my past experiences (good and bad).

I would definitely have saved money with an instructor but it wouldn't have been such a memorable and formative experience.

My AXN Floater jet cost 40 dollars with the frame and motor... ESC/Servos was anothe 20 dollars. Batteries were 8 dollars each. Possibly one of the best planes I've ever flown and the best I've owned. It is fast (60mph), aerobatic, and stable. I also have a more traditional balsa plane (Advance 25e) and I love it too but I enjoy my AXN The most... Partly because I dont care if it crashes, I've never been able to break it and the few times I did snap something it glued back together with CA and you couldnt tell it ever snapped off.
Old 06-25-2012, 06:16 AM
  #140  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

Sherv,

My experience was similar, I think.

Because I spent my first year's flyng, all alone, I made every conceivable mistake ... well, not quite every mistake. I'm still able to surprise myself, occasionally. When I'd made a mistake, I had no-one to point out to me, the error of my ways, so I had to stick my nose into books. This was a very introspective and self-critical process. Totally absorbing.

It's my belief that this provided a good grounding. Good instruction would have been quicker, cheaper and just as effective; but good instruction is as rare as hen's teeth, in the modelling world. It's pretty rare in the full-sized world, too.
Old 06-25-2012, 08:26 AM
  #141  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

Obviously, as me Pap used to say: "There's more than one way to skin a cat."

Some folks are patient, meticulous, careful and dilligent and they very likely have what it takes to teach themselves how to fly.  I started with free-flight and control-line and transitioned to a two-channel glider pretty well.  LOTS of crashes and rebuilds, but the glider is still flyable (though stripped of components at present).  By then I had made friends with a slightly-more-experienced glider pilot and that "networking" helped immensly.  But when it came to powered flight with a four-channel and .25 engine (in a ".25 to .40 recommended engine size" kit built trainer) I failed miserably.  I built too heavy, was underpowered for grass take-offs and, unlike gliders and free-flight, no one told me you don't initially test the glide on an R/C model by hand-launching.  []  More repairs just kept adding more weight and less chance of success.  I found other interests.

20 years later a friend was given an R/C model and I bought one so we could go to a local R/C Club with student instruction - WHAT A DIFFERENCE.  I missed a huge opportunity, to be 20 years better at it than I am now, had I started correctly.  As someone earlier pointed out: you can't teach yourself.  You can only try different things and emperically find out what works and what does not.  If you don't have the financial or self-sacrifice stamina to weather the failures it is a hard row to hoe.  It's like riding a bike - you start small and work up and lose a lot of skin.

Or, get enough cheap models that a progression of them eventually leaves an impression in your skills.

The other great benefit of a club - if you hang out with experienced pilots you will learn a lot of tricks, trechniques and solutions that keep you growing in the hobby.  Our club just hosted the 2012 Rally of Giants and I will be busy altering things on my models to increase efficiency and enjoyment based on what I saw and discussed.  What could be better for a pilot than expanded horizons? 
Old 06-25-2012, 09:34 AM
  #142  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

What to do with guys with flawed plan(e)s ?

First, you ask to look at it. Check the CG, look at the radio installation. See if the airplane was constructed properly and if not, tell the owner if something needs to be changed. And during this time, you are chatting with the owner. Ask themhowlong have they been flying? Where do they normally fly? And so on. No/limited experience , then recommend that one of your seasoned pilots, (or yourself) test the ship for them. hint: (virtually anything that looks like an airplane WILL fly). And whileyou are testing their pride and joy they might notice that their heart is racing, thier palms are sweaty, and they care more about that airplane then they first thought. So you might suggest they take a few lessons before attempting a flight themselves.

Now I realize that many of you might have been trained to ridicule the airplane, humiliate the owner, and encourage them to seek another flying site. But I assure you that method is far less effective.
Old 06-25-2012, 11:34 AM
  #143  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

Not a bad thought, United Pilot. Make it about the plane, no matter how inappropriate it is, and show them what it takes to fly it well. I like it.

Of course, that's assuming they don't first spool up a 450 size helicopter in their backyard on a 1/4 acre lot like a guy I was trying to help last week did.
Old 06-25-2012, 12:22 PM
  #144  
Steve Steinbring
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

United Pilot!

Foxtrot, Sierra, Hotel

Well said!
Old 06-25-2012, 05:55 PM
  #145  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

I learned how to fly alone with a glider first then onto "cheap" foam .049's (this was the 80's when foam planes were heavy and brittle.) When I finally moved up to full house glow models I had it pretty well figured out. I found a group of guys flying at a makeshift field (a club for "outlaws") and started flying with them. Not one ever questioned my abilities or offered any unwanted advice, however they all "showed interest" in what I brought, asked a lot of general questions and I am sure looked it over carefully. Over the years I learned from them that the best way to approach new people or potentially unsafe situations is to ask leading questions, ones that will get them thinking, and it can let you know what to watch out for. You will occasionally need to flat out say that just won't work and hope they listen. The biggest problem I had back then is I was barely old enough to drive and some of the new guys were in their 40's, so what kind of advice could a punk kid give them, even though by this time I had been flying, daily, for over 4 years. At that point I stood back and when it was all over just said "I told you so" as they picked up the pieces and grumbled excuses. This was not the best way to handle that situation, but I was just a teenager after all. I would add taht I am very cautious of offering to fly other peoples A/C, this just sets you up for problems if it fails to fly through no fault of your own.
Old 06-25-2012, 06:55 PM
  #146  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

don't get me wrong, I have no problems with someone who wants to learn on their own, there's many success stories. it's the guy that comes to the field with a turbine, (true story) and after asking all the above questions, and all his answers are no, no experience flying, no sim time, etc etc, he bought it off ebay, then when you tell him he has the wrong plane to learn with, plus nobody in the club has a turbine waiver and show him an LT40 or an alpha 40 and his response is, "those planes are too ugly" what you do? what do you say?
Old 06-25-2012, 07:08 PM
  #147  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?


ORIGINAL: rgm762

don't get me wrong, I have no problems with someone who wants to learn on their own, there's many success stories. it's the guy that comes to the field with a turbine, (true story) and after asking all the above questions, and all his answers are no, no experience flying, no sim time, etc etc, he bought it off ebay, then when you tell him he has the wrong plane to learn with, plus nobody in the club has a turbine waiver and show him an LT40 or an alpha 40 and his response is, "those planes are too ugly" what you do? what do you say?
How about "I'll bet they're prettier than yours will be if you try to fly it"?

Old 06-26-2012, 04:46 AM
  #148  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

Tell them, good luck, but you can't fly that here.
Old 06-26-2012, 08:00 AM
  #149  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?


ORIGINAL: rgm762

. . . show him an LT40 or an alpha 40 and his response is, "those planes are too ugly" what you do? what do you say?
Even "real" jet pilots start with the ugly trainers.

Sometimes the best first kiss is with the homely girl next door. If you wait for Maria Sharapova to get that first kiss from you will go down in flames; unkissed.
Old 06-26-2012, 09:31 AM
  #150  
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Default RE: How to handle the guys with flawed plans?

Anyone calling my Kadet LT40 ugly better run!  LOL [:@] The only thing missing on mine are the stars. Its Red White and Blue baby!

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