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Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Old 07-11-2012, 07:23 PM
  #1126  
rowdyjoe
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Iwas going to fly mine tomorrow but, will have to leave it behind until Isolve the overheating problem. I've got a large opening in the bottom of the cowl and have screened off part of the grill with the plastic piece provided but, it doesn't seem to be much help. I'm pretty sure it's an airflow issue because it heats up whether I run it rich or lean. While trying to adjust the high speed mixture, It will heat up to the point of shutdown if Ilet it. I throttle back and let her cool down before it does and then shut it off. Good thing I'm running fuel with a higher lube ratio.
I've installed an exhaust deflector on the muffler to get the exhaust out of the cowl (short muffler) and it's pinched a bit and may be affecting it by restricting exhaust exit creating too much back pressure (???). Ineed to find or make a longer exhaust deflector
Anyway, I need to remove the cowl and see if there is a way to improve air flow. I won't be flying her until Iget this problem resolved.

Anyone have a similar problem? If so, how'd you fix it? I'm running a Saito FA-80 four stroke.

RJ
Old 07-11-2012, 11:17 PM
  #1127  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe

I was going to fly mine tomorrow but, will have to leave it behind until I solve the overheating problem. I've got a large opening in the bottom of the cowl and have screened off part of the grill with the plastic piece provided but, it doesn't seem to be much help. I'm pretty sure it's an airflow issue because it heats up whether I run it rich or lean. While trying to adjust the high speed mixture, It will heat up to the point of shutdown if I let it. I throttle back and let her cool down before it does and then shut it off. Good thing I'm running fuel with a higher lube ratio.
I've installed an exhaust deflector on the muffler to get the exhaust out of the cowl (short muffler) and it's pinched a bit and may be affecting it by restricting exhaust exit creating too much back pressure (???). I need to find or make a longer exhaust deflector
Anyway, I need to remove the cowl and see if there is a way to improve air flow. I won't be flying her until I get this problem resolved.

Anyone have a similar problem? If so, how'd you fix it? I'm running a Saito FA-80 four stroke.

RJ

I have a O.S. 61FX in mine but originally I had the Evolution .61NX. If you read back, many of us did have a problem with over heating for our 2-strokes- especially when we had the evolution engines in the DVII. (Nothing but problems not just over heating issues with that engine)

In the directions it states to use the clear plastic and use it to restrict the intake airflow behind the grill or front screen (I think in the directions stated to epoxy them in) You want the exit opening out of the cowl to be about 1 1/2 or more size larger than the air intake. In laymans terms you want to restrict the intake airflow in the front so it escapes the exit opening quicker with ease of no back pressure in the cowl. In this way the forced air will cool the engine and allow the heat to escape in a In-cowl airplane design properly.

I don't know about your area, but here in NY State we've had record breaking heat and it has been very, very humid. 2 weeks ago I noticed that my engine was running a bit bogged down- I couldn't get the usual high RPM out of it I would normally get out of it. Once the summer temperatures hits about 90* and about 65% and up in humidity my engine doesn't like it and the planes preformance lets me know.

See my video of last year when I ran accross these hot and humid temps. ( Notice plane looks underpowered)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYgHtDzCGH0[/youtube]

But as soon as the temperatures hit under 90* and the air becomes dryer, my engine runs real well and my planes preformance improves 50%.

Since you are running a Saito, every Saito I have as well as know in a few clubs all love 20% fuel. Me personally I run a synthetic and I run my 4-strokes on the rich side.

Another thing I did on my 2-stroke I forgot to mention (besides switching over to O.S.) is I put in a cooler plug which helped with the cooling more. With Saito engines I read you can run a cooler plug, but make sure what ever plug you use is compatible. Also make sure you are running on the rich side just incase.

Last but not least, I suggest you don't have anything restricting airflow, if you need to open the air flow exit opening with a Dremel more- do so.

RJ I hope I helped, If anyone else has any ideas please chime in.


The sun was just terrible on my covering a few weekends ago, for now on I'll have too keep the aircraft shaded or covered some how. I'm not quite ready to cover my plane in Solartex just yet! [:@]

One of my wheel hubs cracked. It's funny, I didn't have a rough landing with it. It's like it appeared overnight! [&:] I might have tightened the screws too tight, and finally 4 years later it decided to show itself.

That's OK, I took my wheel hubs apart, used thin CA and filled the crack then used plastic filler and sanded it down smooth. Then I repainted it with 3 coats of Rustoleum Carnival Red, wet sanded the orange peel effect out of it and polished it until it was glossy. Now it looks new again. It cracked right where one of the screws held the hub together, that's why I suspected I had the screws too tight. ( No one can accuse me of having my screws loose )

Pete
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Old 07-11-2012, 11:32 PM
  #1128  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Thanks for the tips Pete. I've been thinking about how to improve airflow and opening the underside more is possible but, barely. If Iremove too much more of the cowl it won't have a bottom at all. I've been thinking about opening up the back of the cowl on top where it meets the front of the cockpit hatch. If Iinstall some screen/mesh (like the grill)and paint it red to match Ithink Ican preserve the appearance and gain more outlfow. There may also be an opportunity to open up an area in the cockpit hatch but, need to take a closer look.

High temps and humidity levels are pretty normal around here in the summer. We've already had a few days over 100 F. I'm sure the wx conditions affect engine temp. I probably wouldn't be having this problem if it were not summer. We had some rain last night so the humidity was up today and the high temp was about 94 F. Ihad it runnning pretty rich to try to cool it down (left a smear of glow fuel on the driveway) but, it didn't help much.

Imeasured the opening in the grill and Ihave about 6.5 square inches of intake and the bottom opening is about 10.5 square inches. So, it appears I'm right around the 1.5 to 1 ratio. I'd like to increase that by at least 2 to 1 and Ithink that may be possible but, don't see how Ican get much more than that via the cowl alone.

BTW ... I've been accused of having a "screw loose" many times. My wife certainly thinks Ido.

I couldn't help but, notice the white tires on your bird. I've seen one or two others with those tires too. Are they aftermarket tires or did they come with your ARF? Mine came with black tires.

RJ

PS - I posted my cooling problem over on the Saito Club thread and found out that Ineed to direct the intake air over the cylinder r more rather than open up the cowl more. Evidently, the air is bypassing the cylinder and moving right through to the exit without taking enough heat with it. I plan to remedy that problem tomorrow.

Old 07-13-2012, 05:49 PM
  #1129  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

On the overheating problem ...I've closed off more of the grill opeing and now have about 1/4 of the grill allowing air through directly on the cylinder. Also, I got a tip from a fellow club member who told me that he runs heli fuel in his Saito, especially in the summer. He said when he started using heli fuel in it the heating problems vanished on the first start-up. So, I'll be spending a bit more on fuel in the summer for this beauty but, it will be worth it to see it in the air.

RJ
Old 07-14-2012, 05:05 AM
  #1130  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Hey Rowdyjoe
Well to in my case, I noticed the engine overheating when I first was running the plane on the ground, testing the engine that I had just bought from a seller on RCU. It fact it was smoking. I thought that the smoke had to be coming from the oil that the engine had covered the engine from packing. I think maybe it was, because I then cleaned the engine to remove any oil that might be still on the engine case.].Since then I haven't really noticed any more smoke coming from the engine area, nore does my spinner feel hot to the touch after a flight. I'm running Omega 15% fuel in mine. But others suggusted that I should run Cool Power 15% that it's better on the bearings. I do not have any baffels installed inside my engine cowl.

However my buddy who has the same plane and engine, Said that his engine was running very hot, and it was smoking after a flight. He has one baffel installed inside his cowl and he's running Cool Power 15%

So I really don't have and answer for you att. Will just have to keep a eye out to see if the problem becomes worse or not.

Regards, Jim
Old 07-14-2012, 05:08 AM
  #1131  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Hello Pete

I noticed from your one photo your Fokker is sporting some (streamers) on the bottom wing. Where did you find them? I've been wanting some for my bird.

Regards, Jim
Old 07-14-2012, 08:56 AM
  #1132  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Hi Pete,

What is your COG location also do you have on on the H9 Camel?

Regards,

Kevin
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Old 07-14-2012, 09:36 AM
  #1133  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Kevin,
You need a few more planes in that room. Isee some bare spots on the ceiling.

RJ
Old 07-14-2012, 09:51 AM
  #1134  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Jim,
It's great that yours doesn't overheat. I'm surpised to hear that. Mine heats up so bad it actually will die if I don't reduce throttle. Needle settings have not affect ...it runs hot no matter how rich Irun the mixture.
I'm using Power Master 20% lube & 20% nitro and it was still overheating. I haven't run the engine since adding more baffeling so, I've yet to find out if it will cool it down. It's bound to help some though.
My buddies in the club swear by the heli fuel. That's all they run in the summer in their 4 strokes. They were dealing with .91 sized 4 strokes and one of them has a Saito 65 that will overheat without the heli mix. He also tells me that he mixes extra castor oil in his 2 stroke fuel in the summer keep them cooler. He says the difference is very noticeable.

Thanks for the info.

RJ
Old 07-14-2012, 12:55 PM
  #1135  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Hey

On another note, Here is another solution for the replacing of the rubber O rings used on the landing gear. My buddy had two O rings break the other day and he was pissed. I told him to use some of his wife’s Pony tail elastic bands that she has. They are strong and should hold up well. I believe they come in different sizes and colors. But there cheap and easy to get.
While I was talking to him on the phone I looked up at mine from under the plane and noticed that one of my O rings was busted as well ***..... So yeah! just borrow a couple from your wife. She'll never miss them .

To apply you may have to double them a couple of times to get the right tension.

Here are a couple of photos of the Pony tail bands. One photo shows the Pony tail band next to the H9 O ring as a size reference.


Regards, Jim
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Old 07-14-2012, 01:05 PM
  #1136  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Good idea JIm but, my wife doesn't use them
The rubber O rings for the gear on my bird broke first time out. I guess they were old and starting to decay. I suppose this ARF had been on the shelf for a long time. I had some prop-saver O rings in my box and installed them as replcements. They are a bit smaller but, fit and work OK so, if you're at your LHS check them out for cost. I'll bet they're cheaper than the replacments from Horizon. I also have a friend who is an auto mechanic and gets O rings by the thousands ...he told me he had a bunch for me in case Ineed them. I'll also bet you can find a suitable sub at the hardware stores ...try the plumbing dept.

Cheers,
RJ
Old 07-14-2012, 01:32 PM
  #1137  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

So I guess you don't like my hair thingie idea hey? LOL That's OK. it was just and idea.

Jim
Old 07-14-2012, 01:56 PM
  #1138  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII


ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe

Kevin,
You need a few more planes in that room. I see some bare spots on the ceiling. [img][/img]

RJ

DUH put up the wrong picture should pay better attention when I am doing something.

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Old 07-14-2012, 02:02 PM
  #1139  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII


ORIGINAL: sbrackets

Hey

On another note, Here is another solution for the replacing of the rubber O rings used on the landing gear. My buddy had two O rings break the other day and he was pissed. I told him to use some of his wife’s Pony tail elastic bans that here has. They are strong and should hold up well. I believe they come in different sizes and colors. But there cheap and easy to get.
While I was talking to him on the phone I looked up at mine from under the plane and noticed that one of my O rings was busted as well ***..... So yeah! just borrow a couple from your wife. She'll never miss them .

To apply you may have to double them a couple of times to get the right tension.

Here are a couple of photos of the Pony tail bans. One photo shows the Pony tail ban next to the H9 O ring as a size reference.


Regards, Jim
I use small springs with pre-formed end loops I got from Northern Tool. They just go in the stock location that the O rings would use.
Old 07-14-2012, 05:49 PM
  #1140  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Three # 32 rubber bands per wheel give me just the right tension. I start one on one end, and run it back and forth about 3 times before I hook it on. Then do it 2 more times. Throw away and replace as needed.

Re the overheating problem- Once I substituted an old thoroughly beat up OS LA 65 for the highly touted Evolution 61 NX boat anchor, my overheating issues went bye bye. I run 15% nitro 18% syn/castor mix in whatever brand I can get when I need it in all of my engines from 91 four stroke to Cox .049.
Rick

PS: Warbirds over Delaware is winding down. Yesterday I flew my D 7 in a 22 plane WW 1 furball. Did the same today with my Great Planes DR 1! What a BLAST!
Old 07-14-2012, 09:35 PM
  #1141  
rowdyjoe
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Azzir,
Wow !!!! Sounds like you're having a ball (a fur-ball) Hope there were no mid-airs. Did you get any good pictures you can share with us?

Kevn,
I enjoyed seeing the birds in your "hangar" . I didn't mind that you had the wrong picture. The rubber bands are a good idea. I think Ihave a bunch left from a plane that used them to hold the wing on.

Jim,
Yep, Iliked your idea fine but, don't have access to the hair bands. So, I'm stuck trying to find suitable subs. I'd use them myself if my hair was long enough but, my hair is turning ....turning grey and turning loose.

RJ
Old 07-15-2012, 04:01 AM
  #1142  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Hi, I have H9 Sopwith and the O-ring bungees lasted about as long as it took to put them on. Now use real bungee in 1/4 or 3/16 inch size available at craftstores or Marine stores
it works great and will last forever, better than rubber bands also.
Old 07-15-2012, 11:41 AM
  #1143  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Just got home from WOD. The weather could not have been better. Was warm, but not over powering, and the winds were low all week! I flew my Sopwith, my D 7 and my DR 1 several times, and enjoyed the heck out of myself. Sorry to have to say the DR 1 flight this morning went awry as an Englishman in an SE 5 shot off my wheels! Although the landing wasn't pretty, damage was minimal to the wheel wires and she will be rolling along as soon as I replace the wheels.

I did not do my usual filming this year and kept my camera in my pocket most of the time. I got a good bit of a Mac Hodges show and a little of Paul LeTorno's A 26, which I will post on you tube soon.

Looking forward to sleeping in my own bed tonight.
Rick
Old 07-18-2012, 08:34 PM
  #1144  
rowdyjoe
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Ref. the overheating engine problem:
It appears the additional baffeling has helped cool the engine down quite a bit. I ran it today on the ground and, although it got pretty hot, it did not loose RPMas it ran at WOT and it didn't want to die on me as it has before. It's getting hotter than I'd like so, Imay add more baffeling to funnnel the air flow over the cylinder. I still intend to try the heli fuel thing to see how much difference (if any) it will make in engine temp.
I'm taking it to the club field tomorrow and hope to have good things to report soon.

RJ
Old 07-19-2012, 05:25 PM
  #1145  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Hey Guys
I found this propeller company who sells the Scimitar props for the Fokker. Sometimes these props are hard to find. So here is another source.
Check out.... Justmodelprops.com

http://www.justmodelprops.com

Jim
Old 07-19-2012, 09:05 PM
  #1146  
rowdyjoe
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Here's the link to the place I bought my Xoar WW1 Scimitar prop. They have them in most sizes and the prices are close to the same. If you like wood, it's hard to beat a Xoar prop for any appllication.

http://www.espritmodel.com/xoar-prop...wi-pjwwis.aspx

RJ
Old 07-19-2012, 10:20 PM
  #1147  
rowdyjoe
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

I flew my DVIIyesterday (Thur) afternoon and enjoyed almost every minute of it. Ibought a gallon of heli fuel (30% nitro 23% lube) and the first flight went great. Ilanded after about 6 or 7 min. and everything looked and felt good. Engine temp appeared to be more reasonable (as determined by grabbing the prop hub) and I felt that the cost of the heli fuel ($$$) was worth it. However, every flight afterward (about 3) ended in a deadstick. Fortunately, no damage to the airplane occurred.
After each deadstick I adjusted it to run richer and each time it would die about half way through the flight. After the 3rd deadstick I felt the prop hub and it was not as hot as I expected. I had assumed the engine was overheating and dieing but, the engine temp didn't indicate that it was getting that hot. Although, "feeling" the prop hub is not a very scientific method for deteriming how hot it was getting. So, I need to buy or borrow an infrared heat gun.
In the meantime, I think the 14x6 prop I was running is too big for this engine (FA-80) in ambient temps 100 deg. F or higher. I think it was 102 at the field today. So, I'll install a 13x8 prop to see if the higher RPM and lower work-load will help the engine stay cooler. I'm still looking for ways to direct more air over the cylinder. The baffeling I've installed has helped but, I think it needs something more to force the air to flow more directly on the cylinder.
Ialso intend to check the fuel tank to make sure the clunk isn't hanging up on the inside of the tank.

So, that's my latest flight report.

RJ

Old 07-19-2012, 10:37 PM
  #1148  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII


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Old 07-23-2012, 01:55 PM
  #1149  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

We've had to break out the overcoats today (not) as the temp has dropped a bit. It's only 97 deg. F with light winds out of the north. Too bad Iwon't get a chance to take advantage of the good weather. I have othe tasks on my agenda today.

Update on the overheating issue: I ran the engine on my DVII yesterday and adjusted the carb settings back to factory and started from scratch. Ilearned a valuable lesson that had a hard time getting through my thick skull. The LS adjustment effects about 85% of the total adjustment and I had it adjusted too lean. There is a definite relationship between the two and the accepted procedure for a Saito 4 stroke is ....
1. open the HSneedle and peak to WOTusing a tach and leave it there (don't back off)
2. lower rpm to idle and adjust LSuntil rpm increases while keeping idle constant with throttle trim
3. check WOTrpm and adjust as necessary (probably toward rich)
4. keep adjusting LStoward lean until transition suffers then back off about 1/4 turn toward rich
5. everytime you adjust LS, check transition and HSWOT ....watch for overheating
7, go back and forth between LSand HSmaking adjustments as necessary.
8. you'll know you're there when the idle does not increase when you pinch test the fuel line

I prefer to play it safe and run it a bit rich in high ambient temps so, I gave the LS1/4 turn back toward rich.

After you have the LSat a consistant idle, make sure your transition to WOT is smooth with no "hick-ups" and adjust HSrpm down approx. 300 to 400 rpm from WOT. When it unloads in the air it will lean out and run fine.

If anyone sees a problem with the description above please let me know.

RJ
Old 07-23-2012, 05:41 PM
  #1150  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 Fokker DVII

Tried to PM you Pete, but no joy. Was reading your DR1 rebuild forum and saw you said you were not going to use the original foam wheels. I was wondering if you still have them and if you might consider parting with them?
Rick

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