Luchnia

My Feedback: (21)

I would imagine this is a good assumption. I am sure there are other drivers, however foreign business probably operate much the way you have stated, especially those faced with space restrictions. From some of the pictures I have seen of model manufacturers shops they were very small in appearance so this would be an issue with keeping their build items, although you would think that this type of stuff would be kept somewhere.

When we were in business, most of the time we were not fighting space issues so it was not a big deal stocking parts, and when we built something special we always kept the jigs. We never threw those away unless it was a one time deal.

Another note was that we would deal more with companies that stocked parts and offered strong support so we could do the same for our customer. If the company only offered items and support was weak we made sure our customer new that going in and new they would probably be on their own.

Jacobs Jasta 7

Luchnia, you know how to run a business and I thank you for taking the time to explain things to people in here on how a real business should operate. I so much agree with everything you've shared with us ( that's how my Brother runs his business) and I hope and wish you much success in what you do.

I wrote another email to Pat at Horizon asking if they'ed requested Hanger 9 (vendor) to remake the Plug and or to come back with some of the discontinued parts. I also asked them that Horizon request that they (the vendor) at least be made aware that many who have this plane wish to keep it going and have parts available for a few more years.

If nothing is done by these people, at least I got them to think about it. When Rick finally blew his cork when he couldn't find the original stock wheels for his discontinued GP Fokker Dr1, it struck a nerve with me, and I finally got sick of the new business methods that these retailers are doing- by not standing up to the Chinese vendors. All they have to do is tell them that this is not how we do business here in America, and we back our products that we sell- so if I ask you (the vendor) to save the plugs or drawings and need you to remake and ship another 200 units, then you will supply it or I will go find someone who will fill that order.

But many businesses and retailers have become lazy IMO, and they don't want to start looking for other vendors, or have the vendors compete for their business. This is one of the many reasons why China now dominates our markets, besides manipulating the currancy to get rid of anyone ever having a chance to compete. First we need to tariff Chinese imports and level the playing field world wide, before we as Americans can compete again in the foreign market.

Pete

Scooter04

I'd probably agree with everything you said, and having a business my self, I get it.

The funny thing about this thread is that the original poster "wants" manufacturers to do better. Actually I believe he says "can and should" which is kind of a stupid statement. In this context we are talking about Chinese assembled arf's. It has been described a thousand times how orders are filled. The Chinese assemblers may very well be doing exactly what they are asked to do. So this brings us to getting on the US companies to support their products better. I am absolutely positive that the whole lot of them would gladly produce their products here, makes parts forever, and have awesome customer support . . . . if the "majority" of people were willing to pay for it. Now we get our share of folks on here saying" I'd be happy to pay more for this or that," but they are not the majority, and they will not keep the big companies profitable. Profit is not a dirty word, without it, companies will fail.

People today seem to want the best product for the least amount of money. The internet has boomed on this premise across the board. You can go look at something locally, find it online for a little less, not pay sales tax, and people think they got a deal. Meanwhile they help kill the local business and it trickles down through all the businesses that support them. Local hobby shops have become showrooms for people to touch and feel, and then they run home and order online. Or even better they want the LHS to match the price of an online giant that does 100 times the volume of business. So the local hobby shop slowly cant afford to pay for a big inventory to sit around the store. Next thing you know people are complaining the local hobby shop doesn't have anything. Personally I buy local when they have it and online if it's something they don't have or a specialized or custom item.

Back to beating this dead horse . . . . it's been said numerous times, it's about money, or profitability of a business. Lets stop comparing profitability and support of other industries to the "rc arf" industry. Just because there is profit and great support in the surgical implant industry, does not mean you are going to get the same service in the "rc arf" industry. Comparisons to the mass produced automobile industry . . . . also pointless.

If you don't think the consumer has caused this problem, how in the world did Hobby King get so popular selling their junk???

So Azzhir, get of your high argumentative horse and start getting all your hobby buddies to start doing something about it. Get them to pay more for their hobby. A few people calling Horizon demanding parts, or to bring back a model arf surely aint gonna do sh$t. Oh they will say things, and reason with you, heck maybe even give you a discount on something else, but they are not going to produce stuff because you say they "can and should."

Someone said "if a company doesn't treat me the way I want treated then I don't do business with them", not sure who it was in this over beaten thread. I have a friend who has this attitude. He is slowly working his way through the city getting tossed out of various businesses, from auto mechanics, to bike shops, to sporting goods stores. Imagine a business asking you not to come back and to take your business elsewhere. He doesn't think he is the problem, it's always everyone else because they don't do what he thinks they should do. Azzhir, your attitude reminds me of him the way you state and demand things. Take a chill pill. It doesn't matter what anyone says or tells you, you will just post back your nauseating statement and it doesn't change anything. This isn't even a discussion anymore. It's about money, you dont like it, and then you say " blah blah CAN and SHOULD blah blah." Your not even discussing it anymore yourself and have turned your own thread into a mockery. If you cant control your temper, show humility, or even listen to the one million reasons given of why things are the way they are . . . why would anyone give a crap about your cause? Oh oh wait I know . . . . cause they "CAN and SHOULD." Give it a rest.

Azzir325

Talk about "argumentative!"


Manufacturers CAN and SHOULD do a better job of supporting their products and customers.

The above is decidedly NOT a stupid statement. It is not wishful thinking. It's how I feel about the subject. If you feel, indeed, that manufacturers are doing a good job in this respect, by all means go and start a thread pushing the idea. Don't detract from this thread, which I see is now on page 12!! I reiterate:


Manufacturers CAN and SHOULD do a better job of supporting their products and customers.

Luchnia

My Feedback: (21)

Scooter, good post. On many things we agree and I understand many of your viewpoints. I realize we are a huge part of the problem and some are lousy customers. I do look for a deal, however I don't go crazy ruining the locals because of it. I do buy things local, but not nearly as much as I used to.

Also, agreed the problem does not all sit with the manufacturers. What I have found many times was the middle-man caused a lot of problems. I can only relate the businesses I was involved with so in many ways it is not the best of comparisons In some ways some things do compare. I would at least hope for manufacturers, vendors (middle-men), and local businesses to look closer at their practices.

I believe there are many good honest business men that struggle to balance doing the right thing and somehow still making a profit (yes, profit is a good thing). I am not the original poster, however I appreciate all input on the subject as I try not to close my mind to learning and seeing all angles of the issue.

Scooter04

Hey Luchnia, I started by replying to you but then went on a general rant of my own. No offense intended.

This thing seems to be going no where, as the original poster has mentally checked out of the discussion. I have enjoyed your comments and perspective.

Azzir325

Nope, still here, still on message.


Manufacturers CAN and SHOULD do a better job of supporting their products and customers.

Charlie P.

Talking to the wall. Pilots CAN and SHOULD learn to be self reliant. ;-)

You CAN and SHOULD take your message to distributors instead of clogging this forum. Though manufacturers you'd have to address in Chinese.


ä½*å�¯ä»¥è€Œä¸”應該沉默


Rant = to utter in a bombastic declamitory fashion.

Nailed that. This is fun. Reminds me of the words of Winston Churchill: "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

But you keep snapping at your reflection. It's entertaining.

acdii

Now an Entrepreneur would see this as an opportunity to make money by gathering up parts of ARF's and make copies of the parts, and plugs, molds, jigs, and make the parts to order.  If I had the time and knew how to make the molds and plugs, I would do this myself. Once I can afford one I am getting a laser cutter, and learn how to use it.  

sj3cub

My Feedback: (9)

Thanks Scooter. Very well said. I'm out of here. This thread has become beyond silly. At least I have been able to ad two people to my never deal, ignore list. [:'(]

Jacobs Jasta 7

Yes and I thought of taking out a business loan myself and just doing ARF cowls. But again like I mentioned earlier, I don't want to make a business out of my hobby because it will eventually not be a hobby for me I'm afraid. I was earning a good penny building for other people not too long ago, then it came to a point that I had no time to build for myself. On top of that, often my customers would keep giving me things that didn't fit or work for the model I was constructing for them. I can't tell you how much gas I've burned in my car picking things up or dropping things off for the customer. And not once did I charge the customer or foward the cost of gas for delivery.

After 2 years of doing this, I got out of it at the first chance I could! Again, the money was good, space availability, time and my patience was bad.

Fiberglass Specialties only deals with the Kits and Plans and doesn't feel there's money to be made in making scale discontinued ARF cowl plugs. He's more into the quick income than the slow asset and fails to see that more and more people are keeping their ARF aircraft way beyond the so called expiration date. When I talked to him on the phone he was just another business man going with the flow of everyday modern business. He got on my nerves a bit at the end, but I just wouldn't allow him to rent free space in my head over his ignorance.

I liked the original owner of Fiberglass Specialties, I remember he used to go all out to help someone, and if you were willing to pay for everything he would have made the plug- or had one of the cowls made for you. This new guy who bought the business doesn't do anything but have everything made for him. He knows how the cowls are made, however doesn't have the skill to make plugs and or cowls. His job is basicly marketing and sales. Just like the middle men, suppliers or vendors that's part of the problem here.

So people, we can all jump off the bridge and go with the flow because others are doing it and saying, "Oh Well." Like Horizon, Greatplanes, Fiberglass Specialties, and many others who fit the modern business mold. (pardon the pun)

Or we can break that cycle and start demanding from these people better product support. They want us to say, "Oh well" and not make a peep. I won't give them that satisfaction. I got them thinking- and I got them to listen, now it's all your turn to do what I did. Eventually they will start respecting what we tell them, or we will take our business and our hard earned cash to someone who gives a darn.

If they don't respond by email people, call them- they want us to go away. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Let's make it easier for them to tell the vender to start remaking parts, rather than to deal with us about it.

I like many others who chimed in the thread also want the hobby back to the way it used to be when it was more efficient, and they placed their loyal customers first. Without us, there would be no Greatplanes, Horizon etc. So it is all up to you as individuals, to give me a hand here as part of the comradery we have for each other as pilots in the hobby. I can not do it alone, but we as a whole- can.

Kind of reminds me of the pilot revolt in the Luftwaffe during WWII. Like them, it's time to grow a pair.


Pete

Azzir325

A wall named Charlie?? Got to mention that this forum was started to bring the message

Manufacturers CAN and SHOULD do a better job of supporting their products and customers.

Therefore, that message is not clogging this forum. It IS the forum. Simple message, in fact, which makes it hard to understand why so many trolls are in fact trying to clog this thread. Oh well, a bug is a bug. As I said before, thank you for helping to stretch this thread to 12 pages and nearly 270 individual posts!

Glad you're having fun! So am I. It's ALL part of the hobby we love.

captinjohn

Help me figure this out. A new RC store opened up on a main route on the edge of a largetown. It was a Motorcycle shop before. I was really glad to see a new RC business open there. I stopped and was excited too see what they had in stock. I looked all around only too see everything was RC Car/buggie related and not one single thing for RC Airplanes. I needed a prop and glue & some other small items, but not too be found there. I asked the owner if he was going to get anything at all. He replied he did not want to learn about all or any of RC anything related to RC airplanes.LOOKS LIKE CUSTOMER INPUT IS NOT GOING TOO HELP AT ALL!

I thought to myself what a dumb thing this guy was thinking. He has a large shop loacted in a perfect spot to sell RC airplane items also. Since then I met other guys at RC events that stoped to the same shop & was totally surprized just like me...and really kinda pissed at the all RC car stuff only deal. Can anyone tell me what gives with this kinda shop owner thinking???? Same way with 2 other places I know of. One will at least order Airplane items and has a few items for Airplanes....the other place....just cars is it only. What gives here??? Capt,n

joebahl

My Feedback: (2)

After reading this post and others like it plus scotter leaving, Azzir's statement made a little vomit come up in my mouth so i am out too . As everyone can see its not about his stinking wheel or arf companys and what they stock or dont stock its about his 12 pages and 270 posts. Goodbye to all the whiners and the fake whiners too.

Chucksolo69

The only LHS close to me that carries about the same number of airplane stuff as cars is my local HobbyTown. The other 2 are mostly cars. Why? I think that cars are just more popular with the younger crowd and they tend to buy more cars than we airplane folks. Also, cars are way more expensive than airplanes so I would think that the markup is larger with cars. For example, the LHS that is a couple of miles from my home sells the RTR Traxxas 1/16th cars/trucks for just around $300.00. The same shop sells the Hobbyzone BNF Super Cub for just over $160.00. That's just about a 2 to 1 ratio. If you look at the prices of RTR cars and RTF planes, the difference is quite significant. Foam just costs a lot less I guess. Also, parts for cars/trucks seem to be in stock in quantities way larger than for planes.

hsukaria

I'd better jump in and say something here before this thread is shut down:

We rag on Horizon and Tower for not carrying spare parts AFTER the ARF is discontinued. But how about all the other sellers who don't even keep ARF spares while they are still in production? (I can name a couple of sellers at least). I just would like to level the playing field. Thanks for letting me vent a bit.

Luchnia

My Feedback: (21)

Thanks for the post and I agree. I don't think any of this rest solely on the manufacturers but comes full circle all the way down to the local hobby shop. A business owner has the right to do as he or she sees fit however it may not be the best business decision overall as can be peceived from a few post in this thread.

I would think that a business owner seeking to make a profit would not exclude anything he could possible sell and support if it can turn a profit or keep a happy customer coming back for more.

When I was in business I would often sell new items at cost to gain support business of a customer. Our customers would pass by other locations because of our support business and we were always curteous to our patrons.

tailskid

My Feedback: (34)

speaking of inventory for "old" parts....I was in a hobby shop that sells mostly RC Cars....and WOW!!! The inventory he has on hand - and that he just opened, I would guess most of it is 'current'....if he lasts say 10 years, I can't imagine all the 'obsolete' parts he would have on hand - and of course the part someone wants will not be found

Jacobs Jasta 7

If your talking about CMP, Nitroplanes, ESM or now Ecomplanes they never did make spare parts for the market. Thats part of the way China markets their goods- make the product with no product support. ( You Buy, You Like Long Time. No Parts for You! You Buy Another One- Real Cheap, Fly good!)

Because we know the companies I mentioned don't make spare parts, some of us avoid them all together. However, most hobbyshops will part out a kit to make sure the parts are available, and if you notice- parts are more expensive if you add up the cost. Right now I could buy most of the parts to make another Hanger 9 Fokker, and I would pay twice more than the retail cost.

If you hang out in the Nitroplane/CMP Support Thead- they are always asking where to find parts. But again, I would expect that because we pay for what we get. (Buy cheap get cheap)

On the other hand we pay a good chunk of cash for a ARF from Greatplanes and Horizon, and most of us expect better product support and more parts on hand. Meaning Manufacturers CAN and SHOULD do a better job of supporting their products and customers. Let me reiterate like a parot on prozac- most of us remember how it used to be when the manufacture went out of their way to help the consumer, and continue making parts well after the ARF was removed from the market. Greatplanes, Goldberg and Sig was one of the top companies to do that and Horizon had the same business practice for a while. That's what made them such a huge giant to begin with.

It is now the practice of Greatplanes and Horizon discontinuing with the part making at the same time the ARF is pulled, leaving the customer hanging like what happened to the GP 60 Fokker DR1, Fokker DVII and Camel. When they started that practice is beside the point, we spent a lot of money on their products and they should do a better job of supporting their products and customers.

I have 10 years flying RC and about 15 building freeflight and to me 10 years isnt very long. The vendors have to at least continue making parts for a few years after the main product was pulled. Depending on how quickly the parts sold out, it would be logical to keep the molds, plugs and plans for it. Then make the decision to make another few hundred units or not.

Horizon and Greatplanes will destroy everything in 2 years leaving us once again stiffed. Again Horizon admitted it was a mistake on their part when it came to the Camel and Fokker DVII discontinuation because let me reiterate- "they didn't expect the parts to sell out so quickly." All I can say to that is duh! When the news just hit that these planes became discontinued, there was a push from the people of RCG and RCU to let them know it was a mistake, and requested that they not do it. Did they listen? No. Are they going to do something about it? If they don't, they don't get my direct business.

Hobby shops and distributors have to use common sense- even though it is my opinion that businesses rarely practice it. You find out how much of a product was made, how quickly it sold, and make that right decision what to stock. It's knowing the logistics and the rule of supply and demand. It was one of my strong subjects when I was in business school many years ago.

If a hobby shop was holding the same parts for 10 years, then they are a fool because apparently, they didn't notice what products sold quickly and what the demand was around them. The Hanger 9 Fokker DVII was in production for only 4 years, Camel 6 years. All of the most important parts sold out in 2 years. That would be enough for me to get on the phone with the vendor and ask for another 50 units alone.

Now incase you all don't know, what is the first thing that gets destroyed when a airplane crashes or has a mishap? It's usually the cowl and the details around it. Cowls don't take up a lot of room, so 10 years worth of making and selling ARF cowls isn't much when you are selling them at least a handful or less a week. (looking at the big picture) I can store up to 20 cowls of every ARF ever made and fit it all in a large room in my house. I'm not kidding. [X(] So when they moan and complain, " we don't have the room!" Don't listen. They are trying to get out of working a little harder in the product support arena. If they can make more money for less work, they will try to do it. The more we don't take a stand, the more they will try to get away with it.

It's bad enough we let them replace most of the very nice Gas/glow models with those cheap foam electric planes. But that is another subject one day that we can all rant about.


Pete

Luchnia

My Feedback: (21)

Nicely done [8D] It is not as hard to keep those old parts as many would like you to believe. Unless old parts are tremendously huge they can store on shelves just like the rest. In places where space is a premium I understand, however that is not the case in all situations.

I have taken a whole new approach about RC planes since companies don't stock much of anything anymore and in many cases you can forget support. It has changed my buying style big time. There are still some that do give good support.

I have had good support from Tower, Horizon, and many smaller outfits like TailDragger, BPHobbies, ValueHobby, etc. They seem to give decent support, yet the smallers ones don't always have a lot of inventory which makes sense. I can live with that if I know that the company is on the up-and-up and will treat me well.

I recently paid 20% more for an item from one of the smaller companies that I knew i could get 20% cheaper from another supplier because of the support I get. The smaller outfit always has time to answer my questions and takes care of what they sell me. It reminded me of how we did business in the past and it was worth the extra to me.

mikegordon10

I just can't help myself from commenting on this subject.
I myself don't have any ARF's. I do however assemble some for others for money.
I have always been under the impression that those who do ARFs just threw them away when they were damaged and just phoneyed up for a new one. Money seems to be no problem to this segment of the sport. That's what keeps me in business.
Silly me I guess I just figured if you didn't have the time to build a real model, then repairing one was totally out of the question!
If I were selling ARF's to this "instant gratification" segment of the hobby I would carry no parts at all and just sell the whole bundle over and over and over again.

Propworn

My Feedback: (3)

Actually Mike there are over 400,000 registered users here. They have tried to rally the troops and come up with a half a dozen or so. Not exactly a great enough number any retailer or manufacture would give any credence too. I have a small line of indoor kits and other items I manufacture for the hobby. Mostly local sales and if all six of them were in my area I still would suggest that they do me a favor and darken the door of another source. I only make what I feel like making and there are no spares at all made, if your kit gets damaged buy another or fix it. I sell everything I make and they are in demand enough that after test flying one of my new ones this weekend the preorders are starting to come in already for the winter season. In the summer I am too busy to worry about making something for someone who didn’t pick one up at the swap meet or when they were readily available during the fall and winter months. They will have to wait until the next run or they can purchase what they need from someone else.

Dennis

acdii

Why LHS sell cars, and not planes? Simple, Takeoff is optional, landing is mandatory. These kiddies with their cars are scared to fly because they have to land.  In a car, something goes wrong, you kill the power, your done. A plane, something goes wrong, like my buddies plane last night, where an aileron parted, it crashes.  

opjose

Heh... yup utterly useless thread....

Can, Should, etc... not gonna change a single thing!

Azzir325

Not a useless thread, but you placed a useless post.