2Sunny

Just wondering what guys think about the 150 meter rule in general. I have been using Google Maps this morning to look at satellite photos of fields at which I have flown, and I am fairly certain I never fly at 150m but something closer to 250m, and I am fairly certain I have never seen an FAI competitor fly anywhere close to 150m. I base this on using the 100m per 3 cm resolution on Google Maps then cutting out a piece of paper that is a triangle with a height of 4.5 cm and 60 degrees to either side. I can then lay the triangle on the screen and rough out the landmarks I'm used to seeing, and again I'm fairly certain I never see patterns flown at that distance.

Questions:

1) Am I mistaken? Do most folks fly roughly 150m?
2) If I am correct, should we change the rules or start enforcing the 150m rule or just never mind?

Anyways, just curious.


Joe


P.S. EDIT: I should add that I honestly would love to see a strict enforcement of this rule. Perhaps by starting each contest with an individual standing at 200m and pointing up when a plane flies directly overhead so all judges can see what a plane looks like at 200m. For me this would be an enormous benefit because I could practice at two smaller local fields that easily fit 150m of flying but do not allow flying at 250m which is what I think we have become used to.

2Sunny

In particular you can see this field which is only 20 minutes from my house. I don't want to practice at 150m and then have everyone slam me for flying too small at contests.

AmericanSpectre505

Hard to say.

I would have to measure out 150 meters or 500 feet from the pilot station using the "box" center line and set a cone or something out there to reference while I fly. I know a few pilots that spent lots of time learning to be as exact to the 150 meters as possible over the years.

Good question? Pretty sure I don't.

bholsten

EHFAI

2Sunny

A nifty way to determine your flight distance is to use the EagleTree datalogger with GPS. The data translate directly into Google Earth and will show your flight track relative to the runway. Use the measuring tools of GE to measure the distance out. You'll also be able to observe if your flight path is parallel to the runway, consistant in distance,and straight.

I think that you're correct in that many folks fly outside of 200M, so many that it's become the norm withmany judges. A side consequence is that those flying at 150M tend to be penalized for lack of smoothness and small errors which become more visible when occurring closer.Flying slower smoothly and accurately at 150-175M is more difficult than a fast open style at 250M - hence rules requiring downgrades for flying too far out. I don't believe excess distance is downgraded properly much of the time because it's not easily determined until really excess. Also, a pilot / judge who flies at excess distances is unlikely to downgrade others for what appears normal basis their style.

Of course, there's no downgrade out to 175M (why aren't the poles there?) and this is a good distance. I think you'll find the successful pilots in major competitions tend to stay within this limit.

Earl

H

Using a golf rangefinder (www.bushnell.com) easy to track on a low pass with a small adjustment for altitude.
H

bjr_93tz

Well I've got no idea how anyone fly's out at 200m+

My altitude logger proved to me that 800ft right over my head is uncomfortable at best for a 1.5m glider, so anyone flying at 200m (700ft) out in front of them plus anywhere up to (or over) 1000ft of altitude is flying a blurry dot.

But I also hear that in many parts of the world, flying an arc baseline with the inside wing low, wingovering stall turns to avoid the risk of "flopping" and snapping into spins are also not considered downgrades, even at WC level?

Jason Arnold

I would agree that 200+m is a long way and would be hard to see for the pilot and the judges. Sometimes we do get blown out (or in) with the spins which is why we have the reverse top hat and humpty bump options to bring it back in our push it out.

I'm glad Joe brought this topic up. It prompted me to look at my own field (Pitt Town, Sydney) to see where 150m actually is. I’m pretty confident that we are flying within the 150-175 band and possibly even closer in.

Another consideration is the distance required to fly the roll combo and three of four in opposite. Both of these manoeuvres require a fair bit of sky to do them nicely.

Cheers,
Jason.

2Sunny

O.k. I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong, and I have doggedly pursued dead ends before, but I really think all FAI flyers are WAAAAY outside 175 meters these days. My primary evidence comes from the FARM competition site with which I am most familiar. The picture is crude, but the fact is most folks fly outside the copse of trees on the right and pass the treed area on the left and push towards the tree line infront which would put most folks outside 300 yards. The proof will be at the next contest if folks are willing to send a judge out to 150 and raise a flag. It's really hard to prove post ipso factum. The picture shows 150, 175, and 250 triangles.




Joe

bwick

I would say that probably a majority of your local pilots in FAI and Masters are flying beyond 175. If anyone got a chance to watch CPLR and Onda fly at the World's in Muncie this past summer, CPLR was about 150-160 meters and Onda was 140-150 meters. That being said, most noted how close and tight both of these guys flew compared to what we're used to. It's easy to check people at the Muncie site because you can line yourself up at the poles on the roads between the sites and watch whoever is flying, so I'm fairly certain my numbers are reasonably accurate. It takes 300-350 meters before the airplane is really looking small (think about the back side of rolling circles in FAI) if you have decent vision.

Dre

My Feedback: (2)

I completely agree with Earl and Brett having made similar measurements and observations myself...many people are flying beyond, some well beyond 175m. Distance is not IMO being downgraded properly nor consistently. If it feels comfortable to fly the sequence, it is likely beyond 175m. It is a much more difficult to fly at 150m than 200m - difficulty is not linear. The folks who can pull off an honest 175 or less should be paid for it.

Andre Bouchard

aerobear

My Feedback: (4)

I have used Google Earth for the same thing as it has a built in ruler. I have been at this field out at the center marker while an F3A pilot flew and gave a raised arm to the caller whenever he flew beyond me. Very interesting experience.

Malydilnar

My Feedback: (1)

Iactually agree with flying at 150m, as if you are actually skilled you can fly fai or masters at 150m, which would seperate the men from the boys.

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

So true. Even flying a straight line over the runway in a cross-wind separates the men from the boys, as well as maintaining altitude.

It's really great that 2Sunny has intersecting runways at his field. You don't see that too often.

bjr_93tz

This is probably one of those things that might take a bit of time to correct.

If flying too far out (175m+) has become the norm, then suddenly hammering fliers at the next comp would be the technically correct thing to do but highly unproductive. Placing a volunteer in a good spot to observe the distance correctly, and being able to provide some feedback to a judge at the end of the flight (eg one arm up or both?) so that a note could be made (no influence on the score, purely formative) to give the competitor an indication of whether they should be flying a bit closer in or not.

Give the fliers and judges (often one and the same at a comp) a season to recalibrate, then start enforcing it again. Or if nobody wants to enforce it like noise and weight, then don't worry about it......

UKpatternflyer

After years of flying big and fast I have struggled with the imperative from the FAI to fly at 150m, but this became very apparent at last years W/C in Muncie where anything beyond was hammered by the judges. Now in the UK the distance we are flying at is being taken very seriously and certainly has led me into changing my style, which is not at all easy. I have found a great help in using the APC 20.5 x 10 and also the 21 x 10WPN props with my Axiome + / YS 175, as it really does slow the model down; I guess there are corresponding combinations in the electric world. Overall I'm happier doing this than flying further out as I was, which I guess was closer to 200m. 150m seems very close to me but after a season of trying to do this it certainly seems to be working now.

Keith

2Sunny

Google Earth is an incredible tool for checking this at every field! I LOVE the ruler. Wish I'd tried that yesterday. Here's a redo of the FARM field in VA where I have gone to many competitions. You can see the pole at 150 meters out past the pond so obviously the marking is correct. Just gotta get some perspective on what the planes look like at that distance. I totally agree that if folks want to make an issue of this it should be done progressively. On the other hand I wonder if many folks wouldn't like to see the rule changed to 200m. Suddenly the slowness offered by the contra is becoming of interest


Joe

2Sunny

Just ordered one. Thanks Earl.

Nothing can beat this for checking where you really are flying. Can't wait to visit my buddies in VA and try it out!!



Joe

4ptrol

Joe,
Come on down to Virginia. I have a Contra set up in a Wind Pro you are more than welcome try.

Larry

apereira

Keith,

Is there a noticeable difference on the Axiome speed between the 20.5 and the 21? I thought about trying the 21.

Regards

Alejandro P.

danamania

Larry, Joe, if there is an opportunity at the contest this weekend to demonstrate the distances discussed, that would be most helpful. This from the point of view of someone progressing through the AMA classes (not FAI). It seems to take a bit of experience to estimate these distances, whereas the box boundaries are easier to visualize as one goes from field to field during the contest season. Interesting discussion actually.

2Sunny

I hope you guys have a chance to do just that! Sadly I have to go to my daughters X-country meet on Saturday as my wife is out of town. Here's a Google Earth shot showing 150, 175, and 250 meters. Somebody should print it out and see what everyone thinks. A demo by someone before the contest with a flagger in the field would be interesting for sure.

Joe

rgburrill

Mistakes can be hidden easier the futher out you fly

2Sunny

Looking at the Fredricksburg photo above I'm thinking a couple things about last fall.

1) I think we were flying past the house on the left and turning in the middle of the far left field which would be at least 200 meters.

and

2) some folks were approaching the road and that's about 250.


Like I said I've been badly mistaken before when I got fixated on a topic, but boy it seems to be my experience that everyone I know is flying outside 175 meters. Now I'm curious to know how fast we really fly 'cuz I've heard it said we're doing about 70-80 and that's 30 to 35 meters per second which should allow a mere 15 seconds from end to end for the official box, and THAT seems REALLY tiny. Does anyone have GPS data on their speed with a 2M plane?


Joe

2Sunny

See already caught a mistake in the above photo. It showed 150 and 200 not 150 and 175 but I fixed it now

EHFAI

Joe

The speed thing is another whole can of worms. I've measured both airspeed with a pitot and ground speed with GPS. Of course, the GPS speed is only valid in level flight while the wind must be factored into the pitot speed. One things certain - constant speed is more of a perception than a fact! Even a simple loop that appears to be flown at "constant speed" will actually vary considerably throughout the maneuver.

Usually I fly a sequence or a practice session, then apply the data I'm interested in to Aresti of the sequence(s) flown. Actually, altitude is the most telling as one can observe entry / exit alts, loop dia, etc. So, I don't have data handy that shows just level flight speed at some throttle setting (something to work on). Picking data from sequence entry or rolling maneuvers the 70 - 80 mph number is pretty close. Yes, the box gets short quick @150M - explains why a lot of designers / pilots have a focus on slower speeds and other pilots fly way out. Unfortunately, I tend to use this data to sort out new sequences / equipment and don't really keep good files - at least with coded names that make sense a year or so later.

I've learned a couple of "tricks" for using the ET GPS, (at least mine) doesn't work above 6v supply - I use a 5.2v reg between it and the power source. Mounting the GPS RX in the wing works well (1/8" x 1 x 1 slot in the foam) - CF and power unit stuff canblock thesignal. Initial satelite acquisition takes acouple of minutes - each power up during that days work then are quick.Lock on to sats in the pilot box, then the closest distance shown each pass is the distance out (in front of the pilot).