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150 meter rule.

Old 09-13-2012, 01:03 PM
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2Sunny
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.


ORIGINAL: EHFAI

Joe

The speed thing is another whole can of worms. I've measured both airspeed with a pitot and ground speed with GPS. Of course, the GPS speed is only valid in level flight while the wind must be factored into the pitot speed. One things certain - constant speed is more of a perception than a fact! Even a simple loop that appears to be flown at ''constant speed'' will actually vary considerably throughout the maneuver.

Usually I fly a sequence or a practice session, then apply the data I'm interested in to Aresti of the sequence(s) flown. Actually, altitude is the most telling as one can observe entry / exit alts, loop dia, etc. So, I don't have data handy that shows just level flight speed at some throttle setting (something to work on). Picking data from sequence entry or rolling maneuvers the 70 - 80 mph number is pretty close. Yes, the box gets short quick @150M - explains why a lot of designers / pilots have a focus on slower speeds and other pilots fly way out. Unfortunately, I tend to use this data to sort out new sequences / equipment and don't really keep good files - at least with coded names that make sense a year or so later.

I've learned a couple of ''tricks'' for using the ET GPS, (at least mine) doesn't work above 6v supply - I use a 5.2v reg between it and the power source. Mounting the GPS RX in the wing works well (1/8'' x 1 x 1 slot in the foam) - CF and power unit stuff can block the signal. Initial satelite acquisition takes a couple of minutes - each power up during that days work then are quick. Lock on to sats in the pilot box, then the closest distance shown each pass is the distance out (in front of the pilot).


Thanks Earl. Great stuff. My BEC is set above 6v so I would have struggled with that for sure. Can't wait to see exactly where I'm flying.


Joe
Old 09-13-2012, 05:13 PM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

Would love to see this done on the Stormville field. Maybe a circle since we fly in all directions to avoid the sun.
Can't seem to get the ruler to work on my iPad.
Old 09-13-2012, 06:17 PM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.


ORIGINAL: Anthony-RCU

Would love to see this done on the Stormville field. Maybe a circle since we fly in all directions to avoid the sun.
Can't seem to get the ruler to work on my iPad.

Made one for myself earlier. Was gonna test it tomorrow





Old 09-14-2012, 01:37 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

Thanks for the calibration. I always thought those trees were 150m. I will have to check the other directions that we fly in the evenings.
It was surprising at the WC to see how close and uncomfortable 150m actually is.
Old 09-14-2012, 01:41 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

Hi,
Just a cautionary note;
G-Earth views can be quite oblique depending on patch location relative to the pass over track.

Brian
Old 09-14-2012, 03:32 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.


ORIGINAL: serious power

Hi,
Just a cautionary note;
G-Earth views can be quite oblique depending on patch location relative to the pass over track.

Brian

Brian,

You can see the obliqueness from some of the photos themselves, but I would add that the distance shown on the FARM photo agrees precisely with the 150M pole they have, and even a 5% error which to me seems improbable is only 7M. Certainly I wouldn't go setting any Pattern poles based on these pictures, but simply to say the tree line is roughly 150 and the field beyond is 250, for that I think we are well with in the tolerances of an oblique view. Not that I don't fully agree with being cautious

Planning my first trip to the practice field today to get a better understanding of what I'm talking about and to see just how much of a difference it makes for my style of flying.



Joe
Old 09-14-2012, 03:52 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

Gee, I'm really gonna have to slow it down!

Also was impressed at the Nats how close in the finalists were flying the Unknown.

Wish I could join you today Joe but I have to work. Flying both Sat and Sun early, however. One day at Haverstraw, one at Stormville, haven't decided which yet.
Old 09-14-2012, 05:09 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

ORIGINAL: EHFAI


I've learned a couple of ''tricks'' for using the ET GPS, (at least mine) doesn't work above 6v supply - I use a 5.2v reg between it and the power source. Mounting the GPS RX in the wing works well (1/8'' x 1 x 1 slot in the foam) - CF and power unit stuff can block the signal. Initial satelite acquisition takes a couple of minutes - each power up during that days work then are quick. Lock on to sats in the pilot box, then the closest distance shown each pass is the distance out (in front of the pilot).
Earl,

Thanks for sharing the experiences/tips using the ET GPS.

I have once considered using the ET unit to plot the track for the whole sequence, using the recorded GPS data (see an [link=http://www.eagletreesystems.com/Plane/5.htm]illustration[/link] here). The idea is to check out the geometry of maneuvers with the plot of the sequence in 2D/3D. In your experience, do you feel the data recorded via the ET GPS has enough precisions and resolutions?

Thanks
Old 09-14-2012, 07:03 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

The resolution of the ET GPS appears good enough (usually using 9 sats). For example, one can easily determine "roundness" of rolling circles (or 8's) as well as size, as these are in a horizontal plane.

Vertical maneuvers are more difficult, some of which lies with the ET viewer. The data are compiled so as to present a track relative to time and we fly a sequence in the same space (box). Sothe track of each maneuver overlays the previous -it ends up looking like chicken scratch. That means each maneuver (or a couple at most) must be done individually, which is very time consuming.

Some work has been done to translate the data into a 3D "box" which would allow an entire sequence to be scrolled through on a maneuver by maneuver basis referencing the time base. It would also be possible to look at a maneuver from various viewpoints. I'll let the persons working on this to comment further if they wish - but work in progress.

Another trick that might work is to switch the logger off/on in flight(which starts a new data group) to limit the overlaying of maneuvers during a sequence - haven't tried that yet.

Old 09-14-2012, 08:41 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

We did this 20 years ago and it was an interesting experiment. We put a person in the field right at the 150 meter pole. The instruction was to just watch the airplane. If the airplane is closer than 150 meters the persone in the field will be facing the flight line. If it's father out he will be facing away from the flight line. If you are on you will be looking at his side. This way there is no signaling. All your caller has to do is watch which way the person if facing. Most of the time, even when you thought you were close you were looking at the back of the persons head.
Old 09-14-2012, 09:11 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

My experience is if you don't feel a little bit busy and have some free time between manouvers to think then you are likely at or further out than 175m.

I know when I am flying and I feel a bit busy and rushed at times, then I am usually at the right distance, or close to it anyway.
Old 09-14-2012, 10:44 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

Joe,

Mark Atwood, Brenner Sharpe and I went out to retrieve an airplane about 3 weeks ago during a contest. We all decided to step off the distance between where the average plane was flying and the flight line. Each of us came up with a distance of more than 200 yards. I would have to agree that we are all flying well over 150 meters out.
Old 09-14-2012, 10:59 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

I totally agree with all the comments above. I just got back from practicing at the field shown in the last picture above, and I can say my own habit had been to fly well past 200 yards and bringing it in to 150 was horrible. Basically it requires learning a whole new speed and size for all the maneuvers. It wasn't quite as dramatic as I envisioned, but more difficult for sure.

Joe
Old 09-14-2012, 12:27 PM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.


ORIGINAL: EHFAI

The resolution of the ET GPS appears good enough (usually using 9 sats). For example, one can easily determine "roundness" of rolling circles (or 8's) as well as size, as these are in a horizontal plane.

Vertical maneuvers are more difficult, some of which lies with the ET viewer. The data are compiled so as to present a track relative to time and we fly a sequence in the same space (box). Sothe track of each maneuver overlays the previous -it ends up looking like chicken scratch. That means each maneuver (or a couple at most) must be done individually, which is very time consuming.

Some work has been done to translate the data into a 3D "box" which would allow an entire sequence to be scrolled through on a maneuver by maneuver basis referencing the time base. It would also be possible to look at a maneuver from various viewpoints. I'll let the persons working on this to comment further if they wish - but work in progress.

Another trick that might work is to switch the logger off/on in flight(which starts a new data group) to limit the overlaying of maneuvers during a sequence - haven't tried that yet.

I've been dreaming about having GPS record the flight and then play it back in 3D for a long time. I look forward to updates! What would be even better is if you could mount an instrument to track the aircraft attitude and then have a virtual playback of the track and attitude of the airplane to look at wings level, etc.

I keep track of my distance (and wings level status, elev and rudd inputs) by mounting a small camera behind the canopy as in this old clip. It's easy then to x-reference google maps. I'm a beginner, and what I notice is that my distance is greatly influenced by wind direction. With my little plane, I have logged distances of 120 - 180m over several flights this summer practicing 402. I can see how 175+ would be easy to bust with a 2 meter plane!

Bill Polits
D7

Old 09-14-2012, 01:12 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

Over the last year there has been a fair amount of local focus on flying between 150m and 175m, with our chief judge working hard to ensure that our judges apply the rule book accordingly. We were very surprised how far out we were flying. Looks can be very deceptive. Especially with the likes of the F13, flying at less than 170m is more demanding. It was only when we had somebody stand at 150m and call out the distance with a two way radio did we get to appreciate how far out we were really flying.

Flying closer at altitude is even more difficult, as the reduced lift and breaking makes speed management that bit more difficult. A bipe does help in that regard as I do find the bipe presents better closer, is easier to fly more slowly, and the speed can be controlled accordingly.

Personally I found it a lot easier to fly big and fast far out. I'm now flying around 160m. But getting rewarded for flying closer is utterly dependent on the judges and their own perception of distance. If all judges knew precisely how far out we were flying and applied the rule book diligently I bet everyone would be flying within 175m. So I expect the judges will dictate accordingly, and actually need to be trained on what 150m to 175m looks like.

Clint
Old 09-14-2012, 01:14 PM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

FAI F3A Box Distance Table

Distance | Distance | Time across box
from pilot | across box | in seconds
Meters Feet | M | Ft | @60mph | @75 | @100
150 | 492 | 520 |1707 | 19.4 | 15.5 | 11.6
175 | 574 | 606 |1990 | 22.6 | 18.1 | 13.5
200 | 656 | 693 |2275 | 25.9 | 20.7 | 15.5
225 | 738 | 779 |2557 | 29.1 | 23.2 | 17.4
250 | 820 | 866 |2843 | 32.3 | 25.8 | 19.3
Old 09-14-2012, 06:26 PM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.


ORIGINAL: flywilly

FAI F3A Box Distance Table

Distance | Distance | Time across box
from pilot | across box | in seconds
Meters Feet | M | Ft | @60mph | @75 | @100
150 | 492 | 520 |1707 | 19.4 | 15.5 | 11.6
175 | 574 | 606 |1990 | 22.6 | 18.1 | 13.5
200 | 656 | 693 |2275 | 25.9 | 20.7 | 15.5
225 | 738 | 779 |2557 | 29.1 | 23.2 | 17.4
250 | 820 | 866 |2843 | 32.3 | 25.8 | 19.3

Cheating at 200 gets you 5 secs extra time which is a lot when you think about it, but the real question is what does the community want to do about it. Personally telling the difference between 175 and 225 seems to be impossible so the only answer to me would be to have a line judge that degrades for distance. Is it worth it? Is there some other possible answer like awarding points for close in straight flight? Have I started a discussion that is pointless?




Joe
Old 09-14-2012, 07:51 PM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.


ORIGINAL: EHFAI

The resolution of the ET GPS appears good enough (usually using 9 sats). For example, one can easily determine ''roundness'' of rolling circles (or 8's) as well as size, as these are in a horizontal plane.

Vertical maneuvers are more difficult, some of which lies with the ET viewer. The data are compiled so as to present a track relative to time and we fly a sequence in the same space (box). So the track of each maneuver overlays the previous - it ends up looking like chicken scratch. That means each maneuver (or a couple at most) must be done individually, which is very time consuming.

Some work has been done to translate the data into a 3D ''box'' which would allow an entire sequence to be scrolled through on a maneuver by maneuver basis referencing the time base. It would also be possible to look at a maneuver from various viewpoints. I'll let the persons working on this to comment further if they wish - but work in progress.

Another trick that might work is to switch the logger off/on in flight (which starts a new data group) to limit the overlaying of maneuvers during a sequence - haven't tried that yet.

Good to know somebody is working on the idea.

It probably is not difficult to determine the begin and the end of a displayable maneuver. One possible heuristic would be that such a maneuver starts/ends at the current min or max of the horizontal axis. Once one maneuver is identified, mark it and go to the next one.

I was worried that the GPS does not have enough precision (+/- 20 ft?) to depict a vertical maneuver meaningful to our use.
Old 09-15-2012, 02:38 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

In the NATS in Norway we put the poles in the 150 meter line and most of the 30 pilots did not have any problems to follow that line. Its about get used to the distance and make the size of the maneuvers in accordance to the limitation of the sector. But it could also be that the European style of flying (slower and smaller maneuvers) gives an advantage in accordance to the 150 meters rule.

Since Im a beginner in the Nordic classes (similar to Advance) i have no experience from flying far more out with big maneuvers.
Old 09-15-2012, 02:42 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

Here is what the rules say about distance. I would say most judges don't downgrade for flying beyond 200 meters unless the judge can't see the plane well or the plane is moving in and out and not maintaining consistent distance from the flight line. In my experience, a pilot that maintains a consistent distance from the flight line even if it is at 250 m would score well.

14. Flight pattern and maneuvering area: The maneuver schedules of all classes must be executed in the order in which they are listed during an uninterrupted flight within a maneuvering area or ―box‖ bounded by lines 60 degrees each side of center. The vertical height shall not exceed 60 degrees from the horizontal. The boundaries of the maneuvering area shall be marked by the placement of surface lines of white or contrasting color originating at the contestant's position and, where possible depending on local conditions and topography, the placement of vertical poles at the center position and 60 degrees right and left on a line approximately 150 meters in front of the contestant. The judges shall be seated not more than 10 meters behind the contestant’s position (the apex of the 60 degree lines) and within an area described by the extension of the 60 degree lines to the rear of the contestant. Maneuvers must be performed where they can be clearly seen by the judges. Center maneuvers should be performed centered in the maneuvering area in a plane exactly perpendicular to the judges’ line of sight to the model. Scored turnaround maneuvers should not exceed the 60 degree right and left limits of the maneuvering area. Maneuvers should be performed along a line of flight approximately 150 to 175 meters from the judges, with the main criteria being visibility. Infractions of any of the above rules are cause for downgrading in addition to those downgrades listed in the Description of Maneuvers section. Unscored turnarounds in any class may exit the maneuvering area. Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin at that point (lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always judged).

d. Size. Flying so far out as to make evaluation of a maneuver difficult should be severely downgraded. The main criterion here is visibility. For a large, highly visible model, a line of flight approximately 175 meters in front of the contestant may be appropriate, while a smaller and less visible model might have to be flown at 140 to 150 meters. Maneuvers performed on a line approximately 175 to 200 meters in front of the contestant should be
RCA-13
downgraded one (1) point, from 200-250 meters downgraded 2 points and over 250 meters downgraded 3 points. Since the size of the maneuvering area varies proportionally with the distance from the judges to the model’s line of flight, the size of the maneuvers will vary as well. In addition, maneuvers should be proportioned relative to the size of the other maneuvers in the flight. In other words, absolute maneuver size is of little importance; maneuver size relative to the available maneuvering area and other maneuvers in the flight is paramount.
Large maneuvers placed close in will suffer downgrading for exceeding the vertical 60 degree maneuvering area limit, and small maneuvers placed far out will suffer downgrading for appearing to hide the maneuver.
In all classes, the judge should be careful to judge only the skill with which the maneuver is flown and presented, not the performance of the aircraft. A slow flying model, flown closer to the judges and flying proportionally smaller maneuvers may present the same ―pace‖ and appearance as a faster flying model flown at a greater distance with proportionally larger maneuvers.


Old 09-15-2012, 08:47 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

nonstoprc

The ET GPS specs state position accuracy of 2.5m (8.2 ft) and speed accurace of 0.4 m/s (0.9 mph). I've found the repeatability suitable for pattern use. When using the pressure based altitude sensor the absolute altitudes may not always agree with the GPS data, but the delta is consistent.

The GPS uses dual antenna to accomodate rolling / inverted flight and the pressure system can be affected by pressure changes at the pitot reference port when the airplane is pitching / rolling. So, there is a little noise in the data. With the large volume of data available it's not hard to smooth it so as to see what's going on with the airplane.

For example, in figure M it's real easy to measure the entry / middle / exit altitudes and the max altitude of each leg close enough to see errors and make adjustments in one's flying until the errors disappear. My observation is that large errors recorded with the ET are also noted by judges and the judges precision isn't generally as good as the ET. So - all in all - a useful tool for working on geometry and position. Can't beat a good coach for S & G.
Old 09-15-2012, 09:06 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

It seems to me that distance is very hard to judge, as evidenced by nearly everyone's surprise at how far out we're actually flying. Different backgrounds, surface features and airplane sizes and shapes make it even more difficult.
I'm a little uneasy with putting any more emphasis on this aspect of judging. I think it's a whole order of magnitude harder than angles, intersections and radii.
Old 09-15-2012, 10:04 AM
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.


ORIGINAL: Strat2003

It seems to me that distance is very hard to judge, as evidenced by nearly everyone's surprise at how far out we're actually flying. Different backgrounds, surface features and airplane sizes and shapes make it even more difficult.
I'm a little uneasy with putting any more emphasis on this aspect of judging. I think it's a whole order of magnitude harder than angles, intersections and radii.
I totally agree.

In the world of full scale IAC acro competition they have boundary judges with walkie talkies. The box consists of a cubic kilometre and the judges are placed at the back two corners. Man it gets hot out there!! Anyway there is a call by the boundary judge if the airplane is observed "out" either to the side or back of the box and the chief judge marks it down on the judging line. A penalty is applied (can't remember what it is) for each maneuver out. It is a set amount of points and not graduated like we have.

In reality this is the only way to definitavely apply a distance downgrade. The way it is written now for us is too subjective. One judges 150m might actually be 200m, etc. Do we really want to put a guy in a cage with a hard hat and have him call an "out"? Our discipline is already very labour intensive.

I have been called and downgraded for flying too far out when is was obvious and I agreed with the call in every instance. I think that this is the way it should remain at the local contest level and this subject not become another for the "snap/spin nazi's".

Cheers

MJ
Old 09-15-2012, 06:25 PM
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Don Szczur
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

I stood out along that Thornburg road today and got a first hand glimpse of the Masters and FAI pilots (as well as most of the sportsman pilots). The furthest I saw anyone fly at any point during was about 300 meters and that was one maneuver. Most averaged around 200 to 225 meters (with one or two turnaround maneuvers going in as close as 140. I then stood at 200 meters expecting that was probably where Joseph flies. I was very surprised to see that he flew well inside 200 meters in fact I paced back during his flight (I took a video from the right end box roughly) and most of his flight was well inside 175 meters. One FAI pilot flew inside 150 meters consistently. Pretty interesting perspective and this field is set up perfectly for coaching in this regard.

P.S., we miss you Joe but understand fully. Hope her meet went well.


ORIGINAL: 2Sunny

[
I hope you guys have a chance to do just that! Sadly I have to go to my daughters X-country meet on Saturday as my wife is out of town. Here's a Google Earth shot showing 150, 175, and 250 meters. Somebody should print it out and see what everyone thinks. A demo by someone before the contest with a flagger in the field would be interesting for sure.

Joe






Old 09-15-2012, 08:17 PM
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Bill Clark
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Default RE: 150 meter rule.

I havent tinkered with it in a few months and havent completly sorted it outbut if memory serves using altitude from the pitot gave decent GPS 3D mapping with the Eagletree. I did have to move my pitot all the way out to the wing tip to rid what appeared to befalse readings from pressure created by the propeller/fues??? using you smart phonefor way points or verifying Googleearthcan also be a useful tool. FWIW coming from close in 3D type flying to pattern I have had a problem with 150m +. I feel comfortable at 100 but I fly intermediate so what do I know

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