santino34

Hi Guys.

This is my first post and I wish it was on a happier note. However, I think I have reached my limit and am giving up on my Savage X 4.6. I have been in and out of RC for about 20 years and have always used electric. My first truck was an E Maxx in 2003, that I still run. I bought the Savage X last fall after my neighbor bought one as his first RC. He is a mechanic so he figured he wouldnt mind wrenching on it. After hearing his growl and seeing it belch smoke I figured it would be cool to learn to tuneand work on the engine. I think I was wrong.

The break in went OK, but after that I have had one problem after another with this truck. First my throttle servo went out just like on my neighor's truck. HPI replaced it, but instead I used my steering servo for the throttle and bought a new high torque servo for steering. Next my Rotostart crapped out and had to have it fixed. I had to replace my OWB a couple times and eventually just installed a pull start. Now that works fine. During one of my first good runs the grub screw fell out of the drive shaft making the truck a 2 wheel drive. Naturally, I wrecked it once and had to rebuild the front end. That was my fault.

I had one or two good runs before I put it away for the winter. I drove it once during the Spring and that went fine. I got busy with work and then the heat wave kept me from running it. I finally was able to start running it again about a month ago and stripped out or flooded the OWB. Thats when I installed the pull start. I got it tuned so it started and ran fine except that it always drove away on it's own during idle. I tried adjusting the tuning and links and trim and nothing worked. I figured it was the clutch and took it to my LHS for help. The guy there confirmed that my clutch and springs needed replaced and fixed itfor me.

They LHS had it for about 2 weeks. In the mean time I ordered and recieved a Savage Flux HP. The difference is like night and day. This is so much easier to run especially since I already hadacharger that is dual Lipo compatable. It is my first brushless vehicle and my first experience with Lipos. It is a blast to run, but I have to be carefull and easy on the throttle.

I picked up the Savage X from the LHStoday and tried running it. It was a pain to start, but I finally got it started. It seemed OK for a minute or two, but then started to run away on its own again. It also died after a few feet aftergiving it some throttle. I tried adjusting the idle, LSN and trim. The engine started to rev really high on its own then the car refused to move anymore. Thats when I noticed that the spur gear was toast. This is not good for a truck that doesnt even have 2 full bottles of Nitro through it yet. I guess it's possible the engine may have a leak or something.

So I figure I am done messing with this vehicle and I can do one of three things.

1. Sell the whole thing with all the extra stuff I have for it on Ebay.
2. Keep the everything and use it for spare parts for the Flux or..
3, Sell all the Nitro related stuff like the engine etc.. and keep only the roller, radio gear and servos as replacement parts for the Flux.

What do you guys think?

PS: I havent seen my neighbor the mechanic run his truck a single time this year. Maybe I'll offer to sell him mine and see what he says, If he takes a swing at me, I'll remiind him that it's his fault thatI bought it in the first place!

HerrSavage

Your problem - well, one of them at least, is just impatience. Nitro RC is a hobby - not a toy. Most of your issues afaic were preventable. You have to do things on new RC's - ANY RC's.. - like check and threadlock grubscrews, etc.. You can find that out on forums like this. Same with info for break-in and tuning. As for tuning, no, a nitro engine won't just run perfectly by itself with no input from the user. That, IMO, is a big part of what makes it a hobby. That is not to say however that it requires constant fiddling. It doesn't. Nevetheless, I do think it's fair to say that any new person to the hobby will need at least one engine to learn on. As you go along, you get better at it. I ran my first engine for 4-5 gallons without touching any needles, and it eventually fried itself.. Still had a ton of fun..

If you prefer electric, have fun. It's incomprehensible to me how anyone can, without the sound. I watched an 8th scale buggy/truggy race last weekend, and again, it simply amazed me how unutterably dull and boring the electrics were...

One other thing - you WILL have issues with your Flux soon enough - lipos or ESC problems, tires flying off, blowing diffs, whatever.. None of this is completely plug and play.

I say stop, take a deep breath, and go through your 4.6, threadlock what needs to be threadlocked, make sure your clutch bell is shimmed properly, etc.. And start over. Your engine is probably fine. Set your needles to flush and lean in in 1/16 increments on the HSN til it sounds and runs well. Then, if it's boggy from a stand-still, lean the LSN slightly, in the same way..

Lastly, don't take offense.. I know the tone is kind of patronizing. I don't mean it to be. It's just the way it is. I was in exactly your shoes 6-7 years ago, and people were saying the exact same things to me(sometimes not quite as nicely ha ha..) I didn't give up so quickly though. Nitro had me too hooked.. Still does.

Bash-m-up

My Feedback: (7)

Ditto^^ I too had the same issues starting out with my first Nitro waaay back in the 80's. Lol. You will have to tinker and learn at some point, too why take a beating out of your hard earned money by selling it. Once you've learned to work on it and get it going well, you will find it rewarding at what you've accomplished. There is a learning curve and these forums have a palithra of information at your disposal, along with many members just aching to help you out when your in a bind. Keep the nitro and learn it, you won't regret it, but IMO you will regret not taking the time and selling it for a loss.

JohnP2

Sorry to hear about all of this.

As you have found out, there is a learning curve with nitro, what seems like many more points of failure than electric (which might appear as a negative, but many of us enjoy the realism of the scale). Many nitro-heads enjoy wrenching as much as running, as the pay-off is oh so worth it to us! ;-)

With that, I've not heard about the number of issues you pointed out on the Savage X 4.6.

I just got one (as in I just finished the break-in and have yet to really run it). The only nitro I have unorthodox problems with is my Exceed Forza...and that is because it can be considered a quasi toy-grade nitro.  

A few quick questions for you (and others):

1. When you stated your roto-start crapped out, what happened? I am concerned with this (I prefer pull-starts and am considering putting a pull-start on my savage. I did notice it comes with an exploded diagram, so were you unable to take it apart and replace the broken piece?

2. I have heard to complaints about this vehicle.
OWB (which there is no preventive actions I am aware of I can take)
-The "grub screw" in the tranmission. Can someone let me know what this part number is so I can loctite it?

I plan on locking down all the metal-to-metal screws, but want to ensure I don't overlook this one as I've read many posts where it's come out.

If you end up selling the engine, let me know and I might take it off your hands. Thanks!

santino34

Thanks for the kick in the pants boys. After reading your responses I was determined not to let the evil little SOB beat me. After getting off work today, I went straight to my LHS and picked up a new spur gear to replace the one I stripped yesterday. I had already removed the old spur gear last night when things looked oh so bleak. I installed the new one and put every thing back together. I returned all the carb needles back to factory (Or so I thought). I put in half a tank of fuel andprimed it up. I turned on everthing and set the truck on a box to keep the wheels off the bench. I put the GPI on the engine and started yanking on the pull start. The little beast eventually came to life and started to scream with the wheels turning like crazy. I held it down and jumped on the idle screw and turned it until the engine slowed down and the wheels stopped turning. Apparantly the idle was way out of wack. Then of course it stalled out. I had to lean the idle a bit and richen the LSN a little to get it started again. Once I had it running and idleing OK, I had to tweek the LSN some to keep it from stalling. I finally moved on to the HSN and had it tuned to where it was before. It ran great and stopped on a dime. I had replaced the brake linkage spring with a piece of fuel tubing and it really helped with the brakeing.

I finally ran out of fuel and my wife was calling me for dinner. Before washing up, I went back to the bench and applied Loctite to all the engine mount scews. I also put a few drops of after run oil in the engine. I plan to run it again tomorrow and hope that everything goes well again.

I'm really glad I replaced the Roto Start with the pull start because the Roto Start kept flooding the engine. I had to replace the OWB twice and each time it appeared to be soaked with fuel. I assumed that I had stripped it with the Roto Start, but now I'm not so sure. I cleaned the last one with WD40 and it seemed to work fine afterwards. The Roto Start was also a real pain to use when I had the wheelie bar installed. Besides, now if the truck stalls out, all I need to carry with me is the GPI. Also, I get a better feel for what is happening with the engine with the pull start.

Tomorrow I plan on applying Loctite to the rest of the metel to metal screws. Does anyone know where I can get some blue Loctite in stick form? I have to admit that I felt a very stong feeling of satisfaction after getting this truck running and tuned again on my own. Thanks again for the help. I guess I'll be keeping the FLUX and the X. Now my only real problem is finding the time to run them.

PS: With reference to the problem with my Roto Start, it just stopped working while I was using it once. The guy at my LHS took it apart and repaired a loose wire free of charge. Unfortunately it took him a few weeks and I impulse bought a more powerful Duratrax Kwik-Pit Super Start. Sure it would start the engine, but it also flooded it twice as fast.

SyCo_VeNoM

be glad you only damaged a OWB (could prolly clean it up it if was just slipping with some denatured alcohol)
my rotostart broke my con-rod when the engine hydrolocked and the stupid thing got stuck on.
threw roto start away after that and went pull start.

HerrSavage

Good to hear you're back on track..

I personally hate pullstarts, and think most people woud agree, long-term pullstarts on bigblocks are about the worst option.. It's been a while since I had a Savage, but hands down the most reliable starting system I've used is the Losi Spin-start. Never had OWB slippage problems, and the unit itself is five years old and still going strong. Even the plastic is good quality - has to be to still be working.. HPI's Rotostart isn't quite as solid. Still, I personally would prefer a Rotostart to a pullstart. Eventually you will pull the chord out and it won't go back in. Same problem basically - slipping OWB.... Generally, if they are slipping, just take the engine out and try to clean the whole unit as well as you can.

The slipping OWB is from your engine settings being too rich probably.

Also, you said you richened the LSN. Probably, if you had returned them to factory, you would need to lean it, not richen it.. But forget what I say for now. Just get it started, be patient, and work on it yourself til it runs right.. Actually, I would say a good starting point is probably one hour in from flush on both needles.. Don't have the F4.6 engine though, so others can comment more on that..

Keep it up and have fun...

Ttowntoolman

Yea, I got sick of the pull start on my Savage also. I cut a window through the side chassis plate on mine and I use the guts from a twin 550 motor bump box with a 3s lipo to bump start mine. This option has allowed me to run any big block in my Savage without the worry of how to start the damn thing. The window in the chassis plate has most likely made the chassis weeker in that area, but I put a suport above the window to suport the missing metal. Oh yea, I had to move the pipe up higher so there was clearance to get at the flywheel but that was done easily with a longer wire to suport the pipe.

The concept of bumping in this matter sounds hard but I assure you I can hold the bump unit with one hand and keep the radio in the other and start the truck right up.

I am low tech when it comes to computers etc..but..I do have a short video I can e-mail to someones personal e-mail if you need to see it. To me it is way better than roto or pull start, but it is a sacrifice to a bump box.

JohnP2

Good to see you are commited. As noted, it's part of the nitro scene...but very much worth it in theend;-) Sometimes I actually get excited when I break something (especially for thefirst time)...as it gives me a new challenge. I know that sounds odd, but I'm not alone.

Regarding pull-starts....I probably am alone on that one.Ha! Regardless, I still prefer them. Granted, I'm only five tanks in with my roto-start, but duringthe break in...the roto-start lost its torque to turn over the engine. I charged the battery again and it worked fine. However, the initial charge was for 6 hours (per the instructions) and after perhaps 35 seconds of run-time (spread outin 2-4 second intervals) it lost its charge. Ugh!

Pull-starts can be a beating for those new to it....but it's rarely the pull-starts fault. Typically people make their arm go numb because the engine is not primed enough, primed too much, bad glow plug, or the myriad of other reasons an engine won't start.

I'll ask again...can someone please let me know the part number of this infamous "grub screw"?

Thanks!

p.s. OP....stop having your LHS fix your stuff. I suggest only using them for consultation. You noted your neighbor, the mechanic, also has the 4.6....certainly he can help you. I just hate to see folks pay good money paying their LHS to fix their vehicles.

santino34

I think the grub screw is Shaft Screw #86094. 

I'm not proud of the fact that I had to have LHS guy fix my clutch, but I was pretty frustrated at that point.  I suspected that the clutch was the problem and was pretty sure I could do the job.  However, I was afraid that it wasnt and that I was just going to waste my time when the problem was possibly something worse.  On the up side, now I know what a busted clutch behaves like.

As for my pal across the street, I spoke to him today and he confessed that he has spent most of his spare time on the links this year.  He hasnt run his truck at all this year.  Hell, he might try to sell me HIS.

My biggest problem is finding time.  I was going to run it today, but didnt get a chance even tho I got off work early.  Now that fall is here, I spent all afternoon in the yard.  I grilled out some steaks when i was done and had dinner.  Then it got dark outside and I was done for the day.  I have plans with the family all weekend and wont get another chance until maybe Monday now.

JohnP2

Thanks for the part #, sir !

Trust me, I certainly can empathize with you. I'm still relatively new to "the hobby" (maybe nine months). I own four nitro vehicles now. I've definitely had my share of bad luck (including busting a spring on my clutch like you). Took me 1/2 day jacking with the carb opening, throttle linkage etc. until I had that "ah ha!" moment and checked my clutch. I upgraded to a new clutch and got a rush out of troubleshooting and fixingnow it runs better than it did. I love tinkering and take my clutches out every 20 runs to check for glaze, clean bearings, etc. I'm also one of those odd ones who likes to break down his engines and clean them out.

My first 10 seconds into "the hobby"....I broke my con rod (it was completely my fault). See my avatar to your left. ;-) Couldn't find the part anywhere. Tried fabricating my own....that didn't work. Bought a new engine....it didn't fit. Had to fabricate the car to make the engine fit, etc. etc.

Nine months in and I have done virtually everything. I'm still learning about differentials (gear vs ball). The Savage is my first vehicle with a slipper clutch, so that will be fun to tinker with. 

I have yet to bash my Savage, but I'm fully prepared for something on it to break the first time I do. That's just the nature of it, plus I love to do extreme bashing. I'm actually excited about wrenching on this....as all my other vehicles are buggies, and this MT has a completely different layout. More to learn!

You obviously have some skill if you put a pull-start on your Savage. Just think about how exhilirating it will be when your Savage kicks into second gear prior to its next jump! You'll know that you WON!  

Regarding running....I usually get my fix each night by running one of my vehicles on my street for about five minutes or so. My neighbors are cool with it. If your neighbors are good with it....you should just try some quick runs like that.

chonyc77

Wow, just reading your post is giving me heartburn and reminds me of my experiences with nitro and the reason I sold all my stuff and switched to all brushless. Except in my experience I lasted and went through this for about 10 years.

HerrSavage

Nitro too has progressed a lot in 10 years. Nitro is not rocket science. And electric is unbelievably lame afaic.. If you have that many problems with nitro, it's not the engine: it's the user. If you can't or are just too impatient to figure it out and don't want to get your hands dirty, and prefer watching action movies and NFL games on mute, OK, get an electric. But don't give up in the middle of the learning curve (especially now that electric offers the lame, easy way out..) and tell everybody that nitro sucks. If 30-70 was your run-to-wrenching ratio, you simply did not know what you were doing. I would say mine is more like 80-20.. And that 20 is just changing clutch shoes and bearings every few gallons. Maybe clean an air filter 2-3 times a year(I run outer covers) If nitro were a PIA I wouldn't be into it. I'm in this hobby to run, not wrench.

chonyc77

I think claiming that brushless RC's are extremely lame is your opinion and an opinion that many would probably disagree with. As mentioned in my post about three times this was just my opinion and experience but i knew some nitro fanboi was going to jump down my throat for giving my opinion. Or a nitro fanboi who didnt bother reading my entire comment and just saw the sentence that stated nitro wasnt for me. Again, I didnt say it sucks or i dislike others using nitro, i just simply said it wasnt for me.

Maybe i didnt know what i was doing even though by that point i must have had about 7 nitro RC's and had built about ten kits. But you mite be rite. Maybe i just never fully got it. Its really not that hard to figure out buddy. Not rocket science.

But again, (IMO) my nitro driving to fixing ratio was about 30-70 and if you are getting 80-20 then maybe you should hit the throttle more often and start habving fun with yours. I either dont know what i was doing or you must be driving your nitro RC's in your house because towards the end i was finding myself going home everytime with a broken RC. If i did go home with a perfectly working nitro RC, I usually found myself not having much fun with them because i wasnt pushing them hard.

I respect your opinions and would appreciate the same respect towards mine. Lets try to not turn a simple question by the OP into a brushless/nitro argument.. If that is what you want to have, make a new post and let others argue with you on which is better. I really wouldnt care to argue about that topic to much, let alone in a topic started by someone else who i doubt wants to hear a nitro fanboi get mad over someone putting down their beloved nitro motor. I just gave the OP my opinion and would appreciate you giving yours instead of trying to change mine.

Either way I find that my Brushless RC's are much more durable than my nitro RC's were at that time. Again JMO!

HerrSavage

This is my 5 1/2 year old LST2 two weeks ago:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBEbcFtzxrY[/youtube]

I do the absolute bare minimum in terms of maintenance to this truck. After this outing I threw it in the cellar. When I went to get it a week later, I threw it on the ground and saw the front wheels pointing in opposite directions: steering link broke. A 5-year old steering link on a 5-year old truck with wheels that weigh about a pound apiece... Oh yeah, the roll-bar came a bit loose, so I had to tighten three screws down a few turns. The wing mount needs changing, as it's kind of warped after 2-3 years... I don't think I have to point out how many "issues" I had had to do with nitro. But just to be perfectly clear in case somebody misses it: ZERO. The engine in it now is a Losi 454 I bought new for €89 shipped. Broke it in in about 4-5 tanks, and have just been running it like I feel like ever since.

I do admit, there is a slight learning curve with nitro. I am also not claiming to be a nitro guru: I'm not. I'm not even particularly mechanically inclined.. I just persevered through the learning curve and know the few basic things you need to know. I learned them, through experience. And I persevered because it's so fun. Instead of giving up and taking the easy electric way out. Look, if people want to run electric, fine - they will anyway. But as long as people like you keep on chiming in and saying it's "hard"(not to mention all the other truly inane prattle you hear like "it's dirty", "it hurts my ears", or whatever...), so you gave up and basically took the easy way out, I will continue to chime in and give my opinion. Which is that nitro is a hexx of a lot of fun, and it's not rocket science. And the bottom line is, basically, if nitro for you was "too hard", then you didn't try hard enough. "Well, I don't want to have to try" is the expected response. Which is why electric afaic is more in the realm of toys, and nitro more of a hobby/ersatz motorsport. Plug and play all you want. But don't lay the blame for your failure with nitro on nitro. The failure was with the user.

chonyc77

Because someone likes brushless more than nitro they gave up and took the easy way out?.. Ok pal!

Im waisting my time here.

HerrSavage

With what, a hoola hoop?

JohnP2

Perhaps Herr Savage's response was a little harsh, but I see his point.

I've only been into nitro for nine months. I also only spend probably 20% of my time "fixing". I spend 20% "tinkering" (my choice-maintenance/upgrading, etc.) and the rest running. I also bash hard, I assure you.

Most of us who love nitro cringe when we read someone who complains (and let's agree you were complaining) about nitro. Is it for everyone? No. But electric is not for everyone either.

We just don't want someone who would prefer to get a nitro to be afraid of making that choice. The reason is for every person who comes on this forum and complains about their experience with nitro, there is someone to say they have little trouble and the little trouble they have is well-worth it.

When I first got into this hobby, I had no inclincation to "fix" anything. I did little research and thought I could just pressa button and everything would work fine. Due to this, I encountered all sorts of problems at first. However, during this learning curve, I became more and more adept.If a clutch spring breaks. Oh well. I fix it. If I bend a dog bone...okay let's pop on another one. If I start my engine and it's rich...I turn a screw.

I just want to ensure if someone is interested in getting a nitro, they realize that you don't have to be a mechanic (as with Herr Savage, I'm not mechanically inclined either). You just have to learn, but I imagine that is the same with all hobbies.

Please take this with due respect. Not trying to argue or be disrespectfultoward you.I'm simply stating my opinion as you did yours. ;-) Thanks!

santino34

I think I'm starting to get the hang of this. I ran my truck again the other day and had a pretty good run to start off. I stopped it to put the body on and then couldnt get it started it again. It would start and then diewhen I took off the GPI. Then it wouldnt start at all. I finally got frustrated and quit for the day.

The next day I took another shot at it and the little monster started on the first pull. I waited for it warm up and ran it while slowly leaning out the HSN unitl it was responding pretty good. Then it started stalling out on me. It started doing the same thing as the day before and I couldt keep it running after removing the GPI. Istarted to suspectthat the LSN was set too rich and that it was flooding or flaming out. I leaned out the LSN unitl it kept running at a nice even idle after removing the GPI.

I proceeded to have a great run with no stalling out or cutting out. It seems that my problem was that I had both the HSN and LSN settoo rich. At least thats what I think. I also have to admit that I had some help from a tuning flow chart that I found online. Now if I can get up that metric ton of leaves that fell in my yard over the last few days, I'll run the beast again. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hope my next start up and run is as trouble free as my last.

Now I just have one more question. Is there an upgrade for the clutch shoes and spring over the stock ones? I know that I will probably have to repair/replace them again and would like to get something more durable and longer lasting. Thanks.

JohnP2

Good to see you are sticking with it!! Each time out you'll learn a little more and pretty soon fix any issue without hesitation, I assure you!

One tip that might help you (I know it's helped me tremendously). Do you have a heat gun? If not, you should consider it. When the temps drop below 70 here, it can take quite a few pulls to start my engines. However, when I heat them up....they start on the first or second pull EVERY TIME. I'd go as far as stating that a heat gun is the #1 accessory I'd recommend to anyone with a nitro engine.

Regarding clutch setup, I'm not sure if there is an aftermarket for it (but I could be wrong). I assume it's just the durability you are concerned with? The performance (on mine at least) seems fine. I have noticed that the timing on the 2nd gear has changed already....but this is cool as I've been wanting to tweak it anyways. ;-) 

santino34

I do in fact have a heat gun and have considered using it to warm up the engine.I was just never really sure what part of the engine to use it on. I'm also afraid of accidently melting something. Should I use the low or high setting? I have read that these engines are sensitive to changes in heat and humidity. What are the best HSN and LSN settings for hot and humid weather as apposed to cold and dry? Is it rich for one and lean for the other? Now I hope I dont sound too stupid with this next question, but why dont Nitro engines use a choke to help start them and warm them up? Thanks.

HerrSavage

If you have access to electricity, a cheap hair drier will get the job done. Preheating is primarily important during break-in, when the engine is tight. Wrap the head in alu foil, and prop the hair drier over the cooling head at a slight angle so air can escape. Mine reaches 180F or so in about 12 minutes.

As far as a clutch goes, Dynamite Long Life shoes are popular. Back in the day lots of people were big on Mugen buggy clutch shoes. Aluminum clutch shoes are the way to go. The Dynamite ones are good. It's also critical that the clutch be shimmed properly. You need to shim it - maybe one or two behind the rear CB bearing, maybe one or two outside the second bearing on the outside/fornt of the CB - depends.. The CB needs to spin freely, with no catching or binding at all. You need just barely a tiny bit of play front to back - less than 1mm IMO..

pcarluvr

I'm gonna stir the pot!!! NO, I honestly was concidering getting an electric truck but after thinking bout it I decided to scrap that idea. [:'(] I just like the smell and sound and really don't care who is going faster than me. You may think I'm nutz, but, did you ever have one of those crashes where the vehicle is out of site and you could tell which way it was going just by the sound? Maybe just me but there is a difference in when it's coming at you and away from you. Electric just sounds like that annoying pig on the Geico commercials wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.....

In the old days when pulling a nitro to get it started was the best invention since the wheel, we used to replace the pull starters cause the string would get saturated with blow~by from the crankcase. Is this still an issue? We used to epoxy the oneway bearing into a socket and use a drill after the pull rope broke!

I was saving some cash to get an Thunder Tiger MT4 but have changed my mind. So now it's between the Savage X, Kyosho Mad Force, Losi MT, or an Associated? Got a few months to decide and bash the 1/5 scale!!!

JohnP2

I've not had any issues using my heat gun. While most state it's primarily for breaking in an engine....all I know is any time I've ever had a problem starting one....100% of the time using my heat gun starts it up immediately.

Check out 2:00 - 5:15 in the video below to see what I am talking about. ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TivanZseTtA

Sigma.40

My Feedback: (1)

I think its a Savage thing. Both my Savage X and XL were a pain in the ass to get running right. They both had the 4.6 and I probably wasted a gallon of fuel just watching these things run like s**t. Then all of a sudden they started running flawlessly. It was quite strange. Glad you're liking them better!

Half of being in the hobby, nitro especially, is working on them. I was down to the 5SC and the 8ight 2.0 and I literallycouldn't break either of them so I bought the Stampede 4x4 so I'd have something to work on. I know I can break that one !