Cool
09-10-2003, 02:20 PM
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Cool
Rc Universe has been one of my favorite sites for all the racing and engine forums, now they have a discussion fourum for my favorite type of model plane !
09-11-2003, 01:16 AM
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RE: Cool
DU:
Should I point out that the part you like best is never having to walk more that 60 or 70 feet to pick up the wreckage?
Haw.
Bill.
All I can say is YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY...finally...a forum for the kind of flying I enjoy most of all
Haw.
Bill.
09-11-2003, 04:14 PM
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RE: Cool
George:
Good one. Almost.
Don't forget Victor Stanzel's fantastic invention for we who flew c/l speed - Monoline controllers.
And while I still have a bunch of two-line stuff, my Monoline equipment is all gone.
Bill.
Good one. Almost.
Don't forget Victor Stanzel's fantastic invention for we who flew c/l speed - Monoline controllers.
And while I still have a bunch of two-line stuff, my Monoline equipment is all gone.
Bill.
09-11-2003, 08:35 PM
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RE: Cool
It seems to me that I saw something about banning Monoline in Model Aviation, but I don't think it will happen.
The use of Monoline is firmly entrenched, and there's nothing inherently dangerous in it.
Some things, like the tetra fuel additive we were using in 1960 and 1961 are extremely dangerous, not only from being explosive but highly poisonous. Banning tetra and other corrosive fuels was a good thing.
In my opinion, and the opinion of everybody using it, banning Monoline would be a bad thing, and just plain senseless.
Since that one note several months ago I've heard nothing more.
Bill.
The use of Monoline is firmly entrenched, and there's nothing inherently dangerous in it.
Some things, like the tetra fuel additive we were using in 1960 and 1961 are extremely dangerous, not only from being explosive but highly poisonous. Banning tetra and other corrosive fuels was a good thing.
In my opinion, and the opinion of everybody using it, banning Monoline would be a bad thing, and just plain senseless.
Since that one note several months ago I've heard nothing more.
Bill.
09-12-2003, 06:59 AM
#10
RE: Cool
Monoline is not only for Speed. A few years ago at the Vintage Stunt Championships Dale Kirn showed how to use Monoline in a stunt plane. Then his son flew a stunt plane using Monoline. One of the interesting points (to me) was how the wires would retain some twist to the point that he would have to spin the knob to reestablish neutral while the plane was in level flight.
I have an old Stanzel class A unit and a class "A" size Kansas Twister. That said, I have never flown speed and never used a Monoline unit.
George
I have an old Stanzel class A unit and a class "A" size Kansas Twister. That said, I have never flown speed and never used a Monoline unit.
George
09-12-2003, 08:00 AM
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RE: Cool
ok guys i am an ooollllldddddd 2 liner. could somebody give me a short class in "monoline"??? how the heck.....does that work......... i can't seem to get my tiny brain around it. of course i have never seen it either!
john
john
09-12-2003, 09:21 AM
#12
RE: Cool
Mono Line was around in the 50's and eversince I guess. It was made by Victor Stanzel if I remember correctly. The only places I saw it used was in the speed classes.
The handle was made like a Yankee screw driver and there were two handle parts. A fixed one at the rear and one that slide back and forth. To slide the one back and forth caused the line to twist. There was a mechanism in the plane to convert this twisting motion into uup and down on the elevator.
The line was two or three times thicker than one of the two line types.
It didn't work so well for stunt.
Jim
The handle was made like a Yankee screw driver and there were two handle parts. A fixed one at the rear and one that slide back and forth. To slide the one back and forth caused the line to twist. There was a mechanism in the plane to convert this twisting motion into uup and down on the elevator.
The line was two or three times thicker than one of the two line types.
It didn't work so well for stunt.
Jim
09-12-2003, 02:06 PM
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RE: Cool
Flying Monoline gave you about as much control feel as using the Aramid lines for a two-line system, or flying yur 1/2A Cox RTF with the supplied thread lines.
Very mushy.
Dale Kirn was one of the few who could make Monoline look good on a stunt plane,
One of Stanzel's seling points was retaining control when the plane came in on the lines. My opinion? If you lose tension on the lines you have other things to worry about.
There were some real advantages, for example if the plane pitched up the line would be twisted into some "Down" elevator input, so long as you held the slider in the same position. This is also why you see the pilot hitting the slider with the palm of his hand now and then - when you do an inside loop, for example, the line has to take that same full turn to stay in the control center position. And you have moved the neutral position of the slider about three inches closer to the handle, so you have to twist it back to the center of the spiral.
Unlike a two-line system where you just swing yur handle and keep the same control setting throught the maneuver, with the Monoline you have to keep moving the slider as the airplane goes through its maneuver, or the control goes back to neutral as the plane turns.
All this makes Monoline ideal for c/l speed. You don't want any pitch instability, Monoline adds a bit of stability all by itself. With two lines on a speed job any twitch of your hand will deflect the elevator increasing air drag, and lowering your speed. Doesn't even have to be enough to see, it's there.
A properly trimmed speed plane will "Groove," and maintain its five to eight foot altitude with no control input. Once you are "Grooving" you can take your hand off the slider and make no more control inputs all the way to the airplane landing.
But sport and stunt? No Monoline for me, thanks anyway.
Bill.
Very mushy.
Dale Kirn was one of the few who could make Monoline look good on a stunt plane,
One of Stanzel's seling points was retaining control when the plane came in on the lines. My opinion? If you lose tension on the lines you have other things to worry about.
There were some real advantages, for example if the plane pitched up the line would be twisted into some "Down" elevator input, so long as you held the slider in the same position. This is also why you see the pilot hitting the slider with the palm of his hand now and then - when you do an inside loop, for example, the line has to take that same full turn to stay in the control center position. And you have moved the neutral position of the slider about three inches closer to the handle, so you have to twist it back to the center of the spiral.
Unlike a two-line system where you just swing yur handle and keep the same control setting throught the maneuver, with the Monoline you have to keep moving the slider as the airplane goes through its maneuver, or the control goes back to neutral as the plane turns.
All this makes Monoline ideal for c/l speed. You don't want any pitch instability, Monoline adds a bit of stability all by itself. With two lines on a speed job any twitch of your hand will deflect the elevator increasing air drag, and lowering your speed. Doesn't even have to be enough to see, it's there.
A properly trimmed speed plane will "Groove," and maintain its five to eight foot altitude with no control input. Once you are "Grooving" you can take your hand off the slider and make no more control inputs all the way to the airplane landing.
But sport and stunt? No Monoline for me, thanks anyway.
Bill.
09-13-2003, 03:10 AM
#14
RE: Cool
Monoline was introduced for speed (where the rules didn't specify 2 lines) because the drag from the single line was much less than for two (thinner) lines one behind the other.
09-13-2003, 06:45 AM
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RE: Cool
well guys that is about a concise report if i ever saw one! thanx i can now visualize how this system works. all this time i was playin around with 2 lines tryin to go fast when i coulda been goin really fast!!!
thanx again
john
thanx again
john
09-13-2003, 11:43 AM
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RE: Cool
DU:
Disagree, sir.
Jim Walker had patented the two-line system, all the manufacturers of kits or c/l parts, the bellcrank, control horns, etc, had to pay a royalty to Walker for every thing they made and sold. Monoline was an alternate system, and no royalty to Walker was required.
When Stanzel put Monoline on the market, in the mid 50s, he pushed its use as a sport system. He even hired Dale Kirn to go on a "Road show" to demonstrate it as a system for stunt planes. He was able to use line lengths that would not have been operable with a two line system,
One of the things he touted was just that, the longer lines. By using them, one of the "Newbie" objections was countered - the pilot spinning around. "I'll get dizzy!" was a common objection, the longer lines meant he didn't have to spin as fast.
And then the speed boys found that one 0.018" line was less air drag than two 0.012" lines.
So the Monoline system, intended to displace Jim Walker's "U-Control" never caught on, except for U/C speed,where it became dominant.
Bill.
Disagree, sir.
Jim Walker had patented the two-line system, all the manufacturers of kits or c/l parts, the bellcrank, control horns, etc, had to pay a royalty to Walker for every thing they made and sold. Monoline was an alternate system, and no royalty to Walker was required.
When Stanzel put Monoline on the market, in the mid 50s, he pushed its use as a sport system. He even hired Dale Kirn to go on a "Road show" to demonstrate it as a system for stunt planes. He was able to use line lengths that would not have been operable with a two line system,
One of the things he touted was just that, the longer lines. By using them, one of the "Newbie" objections was countered - the pilot spinning around. "I'll get dizzy!" was a common objection, the longer lines meant he didn't have to spin as fast.
And then the speed boys found that one 0.018" line was less air drag than two 0.012" lines.
So the Monoline system, intended to displace Jim Walker's "U-Control" never caught on, except for U/C speed,where it became dominant.
Bill.
09-13-2003, 12:22 PM
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RE: Cool
When I watched the video on this page it apeared they were using a standard handle. Does anyone know if that was a 2 line or single line used when that record was set.
http://www.flyrc.btinternet.co.uk/re...ntrol_line.htm
http://www.flyrc.btinternet.co.uk/re...ntrol_line.htm
09-13-2003, 12:28 PM
#18
RE: Cool
Additioally, Stanzel offered a thousand bucks (50's bucks!) to anyone who could win stunt at the Nationals using a Monoline system. Noone won the money.
The actuator units for speed and stunt are different. The stunt one looks sorta like a spiral and the speed one looks like a worm gear.
There is a Stanzel museum in Texas (with a web site) for more information. I think it is owned and run by Dale Kirn.
downunder, I really like your graphic. Kinda reminds me of me when I had hair and was young enough to party all night
George
The actuator units for speed and stunt are different. The stunt one looks sorta like a spiral and the speed one looks like a worm gear.
There is a Stanzel museum in Texas (with a web site) for more information. I think it is owned and run by Dale Kirn.
downunder, I really like your graphic. Kinda reminds me of me when I had hair and was young enough to party all night
George
09-13-2003, 12:53 PM
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RE: Cool
ControlLine:
Watching the video, and taking a cropped image (attached) sure looks like he was using a two line system.
Hearing the engine come on the pipe sends chills down your back, doesn't it?
Bill.
Watching the video, and taking a cropped image (attached) sure looks like he was using a two line system.
Hearing the engine come on the pipe sends chills down your back, doesn't it?
Bill.
09-13-2003, 01:02 PM
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RE: Cool
Jess:
Any prop has to turn, obviously. And the less disturbed the air it turns through, the more efficient it can be.
When you have only a single blade there is no air disturbance from the other blade to go through, so efficiency goes up.
And this is why, generally speaking, a two blade prop is "Better" than a three blade, and it naturally follows that a three blade is "Better" than a four blade, and so on.
Three and four blade props are used on full scale planes to limit prop diameter mainly, but also for noise supression.
The disadvantage of a single blade, other than the counterweight, is the offset thrust load on the crankshaft.
Bill.
Any prop has to turn, obviously. And the less disturbed the air it turns through, the more efficient it can be.
When you have only a single blade there is no air disturbance from the other blade to go through, so efficiency goes up.
And this is why, generally speaking, a two blade prop is "Better" than a three blade, and it naturally follows that a three blade is "Better" than a four blade, and so on.
Three and four blade props are used on full scale planes to limit prop diameter mainly, but also for noise supression.
The disadvantage of a single blade, other than the counterweight, is the offset thrust load on the crankshaft.
Bill.
09-13-2003, 09:20 PM
#22
RE: Cool
Bill....thanks for the correction on Monoline. I can't even imagine trying to do a square using that system although I don't think they were even thought of back then
The advantage of a single blade prop is that you can have a large enough disc area to generate the thrust while keeping the load down on the engine so it can reach the revs needed for maximum HP. In that video he's definitely using 2 lines because Monoline is banned for FAI speed. In fact, they're not even allowed to use "groupers" which were used to keep both lines close together to reduce their drag. The fuel he'll be using is a simple 80/20 with all castor (that's why it's called FAI fuel ). The handle locks into a pylon so that the radius is constant and to prevent any whipping. Timing starts (I think) one lap after the handle is placed in the pylon because they have to whip like crazy at first to get the engine to unload enough to come on the pipe.
The advantage of a single blade prop is that you can have a large enough disc area to generate the thrust while keeping the load down on the engine so it can reach the revs needed for maximum HP. In that video he's definitely using 2 lines because Monoline is banned for FAI speed. In fact, they're not even allowed to use "groupers" which were used to keep both lines close together to reduce their drag. The fuel he'll be using is a simple 80/20 with all castor (that's why it's called FAI fuel
). The handle locks into a pylon so that the radius is constant and to prevent any whipping. Timing starts (I think) one lap after the handle is placed in the pylon because they have to whip like crazy at first to get the engine to unload enough to come on the pipe.
09-13-2003, 10:03 PM
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RE: Cool
DU:
That shows you how much I really know aboutFAI regs. I knew the fuel was 80/20, but I didn't know they could not use Monoline.
I never bothered with groupers in two-line speed, just put 10 or 15 twists in the lines, not only holds them together but cuts the frontal area way down too, where they are one in front of the other. Yes, it makes the control a little stiffer after the speed comes up, but if you have a good flight you're already grooving and no control is needed.
Besides, I always figured line pull was wasted power. My engines were always installed with left thrust, and left turn built into the rudder. Sometimes got a little too much, and the first flight could be exciting.
My one surviving speed plane is a 1/2A, totally different from current designs. Built it in 1960.
Bill.
That shows you how much I really know aboutFAI regs. I knew the fuel was 80/20, but I didn't know they could not use Monoline.
I never bothered with groupers in two-line speed, just put 10 or 15 twists in the lines, not only holds them together but cuts the frontal area way down too, where they are one in front of the other. Yes, it makes the control a little stiffer after the speed comes up, but if you have a good flight you're already grooving and no control is needed.
Besides, I always figured line pull was wasted power. My engines were always installed with left thrust, and left turn built into the rudder. Sometimes got a little too much, and the first flight could be exciting.
My one surviving speed plane is a 1/2A, totally different from current designs. Built it in 1960.
Bill.
09-14-2003, 01:01 PM
#24
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RE: Cool
The Stanzel Model Aircraft Museum is is owned and operated by the Stanzel Family Foundation. It is in Schulenberg, Texas, on Hwy 77 about 5 blocks south of I-10. There is a website, but I don't have it. They have a new website because their former website was taken over by a porn outfit. Dale Kirn has built a number of magnificient airplanes for the museum and the museum itself is very well done. There is either the original Thunderbird, or a replica, which Dale twith promoting monoline for stunt.
Dale's son, Joe, flew a Jamison Special on monoline at the 2000 VSC (I was an OTS judge) in a very respectible fashion. Dale told me Joe had only been flying monoline for two weeks, and had not previously flown CL.
We are planning a speed-limit CL combat contest in Schulenberg for October 2004, sponsered by the museum.
Dale's son, Joe, flew a Jamison Special on monoline at the 2000 VSC (I was an OTS judge) in a very respectible fashion. Dale told me Joe had only been flying monoline for two weeks, and had not previously flown CL.
We are planning a speed-limit CL combat contest in Schulenberg for October 2004, sponsered by the museum.
