How much work is too much on an ARF?
11-18-2012, 04:19 AM
#1
How much work is too much on an ARF?
Reading in some of the forums I have noticed that some guys have the best luck with off-brand cheapo ARFs and I curious as to what you think is too much time and labor into an ARF. I am not bringing this up to start wars on HK, Nitroplanes, etc. There is a fact that many fair very well by buying these models and doing some "pre-work" before putting the plane in the air and some have saved a substantial amount of money. In many cases enough to handle the cost of the engine.
Here is an example of one of the worst ARFs I have seen. Last Fall I purchased a 30cc ARF on a blowout sale for 199.00 plus shipping. Total cost was 249 to my door. I do know sometimes guys have bought a 50cc plane for 300 or less. I have been flying the plane off and on through the summer and no issues so far. I put it together over last winter which made this whole thing appealing because it was mostly time involved and I worked on it on bad weather days.
I will start with the cons:
Cons:
1. Workmanship was horrible overall.
2. Aileron hinges had three holes drilled and none lined up and they did not even cover the bad holes.
3. All hinges except one pulled out by hand (poor glue)
4. No hardware worked at all except horns once they were modified (not even sure what the hardware was for).
5. Some parts were broken
6. Fuel tank was not even for the right model, it was a tiny glow tank
7. T nuts were rusty and many had to be tapped or replaced.
8. Some areas in fuselage not well glued
9. Canopy was a piece of plastic that had to be cut and mounted although this was called a quick build model
10. Wing tube was some type of weird thin metal that would bend by looking at it.
11. Landing gear made out of some sort of fiber pressed material that I have never seen (it has held up remarkably well)
12. Most holes were drilled offset and misaligned (person must have been drunk that drilled them)
All I can think of now.
Pros:
1. Covering was some of the best work I have seen for an ARF and even now looks pristine.
2. Overall structural design intergrity is solid
3. Cost was hard to beat at 199.00
4. Flies beautifully (did need some lateral balance though)
5. Hinges were decent quality even though I replaced them with Robarts.
Work done to the plane:
1. Pull all hinges and re-drill ailerons (this was the worse problem with the plane and took the most time).
2. Replace all the hardware except for horns, landing gear, and tailwheel.
3. Repair a few broken wood areas - not many were bad.
4. Strengthen some areas in the hull with thinned Epoxy (I do this anyway).
5. Replace fuel tank (Was gonna do that anyway as I run clear plastic bottles on my gassers).
6. Fit canopy (quite a bit of labor and in my way of thinking does not qualify for quick build)
7. Replace or tap T-nuts (general checks on most ARFs)
8. Put a carbon fiber tube I had into the metal tube (all is well as I had a tube laying around out of an older crashed plane)
All in all when I looked at the costs and not the labor cost, I still came out extremely well. I will say there was a level of frustration and anger though. I may have spent 75 dollars on hardware that I did not have on-hand. If you tally that up, I have about 325 in the plane.
I would also wonder if most of the off-brand, el cheapo ARFs that you have bought are as bad as the one I bought? Keep in mind, this is the only ARF I have ever really had any major issues with as far as overall build quality. I have read that guys are starting to pull the covering from the bottom of the wings and re-gluing as needed, of course strengthening any other areas, and generally replacing the hardware.
This is not such a bad deal if I am going into the winter and want to tinker with something on those rainy snowy days. For you "kit" guys, I am just not interested in building a kit right now. If my labor is super valuable then I have gained nothing and lost money. Usually in the winter months I don't consider my labor all that valuable. I am even thinking a 50cc plane for around 300-350 is a winner, ONLY if you have to invest some labor and a small cost for hardware.
I know there are die-hard "you get what you pay for folks" out there and I respect that thought. I am curious though about the folks out there that have won with a good experience with one of these el cheapo ARFs. Please lend a comment about your experience cost verses labor and how much work you think is too much for a winter gig? I am thinking mine was one of the worse situations and not the norm. If my situation was the norm then I know what to expect.
Here is an example of one of the worst ARFs I have seen. Last Fall I purchased a 30cc ARF on a blowout sale for 199.00 plus shipping. Total cost was 249 to my door. I do know sometimes guys have bought a 50cc plane for 300 or less. I have been flying the plane off and on through the summer and no issues so far. I put it together over last winter which made this whole thing appealing because it was mostly time involved and I worked on it on bad weather days.
I will start with the cons:
Cons:
1. Workmanship was horrible overall.
2. Aileron hinges had three holes drilled and none lined up and they did not even cover the bad holes.
3. All hinges except one pulled out by hand (poor glue)
4. No hardware worked at all except horns once they were modified (not even sure what the hardware was for).
5. Some parts were broken
6. Fuel tank was not even for the right model, it was a tiny glow tank
7. T nuts were rusty and many had to be tapped or replaced.
8. Some areas in fuselage not well glued
9. Canopy was a piece of plastic that had to be cut and mounted although this was called a quick build model
10. Wing tube was some type of weird thin metal that would bend by looking at it.
11. Landing gear made out of some sort of fiber pressed material that I have never seen (it has held up remarkably well)
12. Most holes were drilled offset and misaligned (person must have been drunk that drilled them)
All I can think of now.
Pros:
1. Covering was some of the best work I have seen for an ARF and even now looks pristine.
2. Overall structural design intergrity is solid
3. Cost was hard to beat at 199.00
4. Flies beautifully (did need some lateral balance though)
5. Hinges were decent quality even though I replaced them with Robarts.
Work done to the plane:
1. Pull all hinges and re-drill ailerons (this was the worse problem with the plane and took the most time).
2. Replace all the hardware except for horns, landing gear, and tailwheel.
3. Repair a few broken wood areas - not many were bad.
4. Strengthen some areas in the hull with thinned Epoxy (I do this anyway).
5. Replace fuel tank (Was gonna do that anyway as I run clear plastic bottles on my gassers).
6. Fit canopy (quite a bit of labor and in my way of thinking does not qualify for quick build)
7. Replace or tap T-nuts (general checks on most ARFs)
8. Put a carbon fiber tube I had into the metal tube (all is well as I had a tube laying around out of an older crashed plane)
All in all when I looked at the costs and not the labor cost, I still came out extremely well. I will say there was a level of frustration and anger though. I may have spent 75 dollars on hardware that I did not have on-hand. If you tally that up, I have about 325 in the plane.
I would also wonder if most of the off-brand, el cheapo ARFs that you have bought are as bad as the one I bought? Keep in mind, this is the only ARF I have ever really had any major issues with as far as overall build quality. I have read that guys are starting to pull the covering from the bottom of the wings and re-gluing as needed, of course strengthening any other areas, and generally replacing the hardware.
This is not such a bad deal if I am going into the winter and want to tinker with something on those rainy snowy days. For you "kit" guys, I am just not interested in building a kit right now. If my labor is super valuable then I have gained nothing and lost money. Usually in the winter months I don't consider my labor all that valuable. I am even thinking a 50cc plane for around 300-350 is a winner, ONLY if you have to invest some labor and a small cost for hardware.
I know there are die-hard "you get what you pay for folks" out there and I respect that thought. I am curious though about the folks out there that have won with a good experience with one of these el cheapo ARFs. Please lend a comment about your experience cost verses labor and how much work you think is too much for a winter gig? I am thinking mine was one of the worse situations and not the norm. If my situation was the norm then I know what to expect.
11-18-2012, 06:41 AM
#2
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
Not everyone wants to put that much work and money in upgrade parts to still end up with what's considered an off brand or cheap arf,, some like you do and that's great.
There also is an element of snobbery that keeps some from trying some brands, some guys just have to have the top brand name stuff whether it's a ARF plane or a smart phone.
Years ago before I had much money, I'd pull planes from the trash guys wouldn't bother with and rebuild them. That and scratch building were ways that made the hobby affordable to me.. You do what you gotta do.
I must say, I've put a few of those bottom brand planes together,, Not worth the minimal cost savings for me any more
There also is an element of snobbery that keeps some from trying some brands, some guys just have to have the top brand name stuff whether it's a ARF plane or a smart phone.
Years ago before I had much money, I'd pull planes from the trash guys wouldn't bother with and rebuild them. That and scratch building were ways that made the hobby affordable to me.. You do what you gotta do.
I must say, I've put a few of those bottom brand planes together,, Not worth the minimal cost savings for me any more
11-18-2012, 07:13 AM
#3
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
Some may just like the challenge of turning a sows ear into a silk purse so it really does not matter how much work it is because this is a hobby...
Bob
Bob
11-18-2012, 07:58 AM
#4
Senior Member
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
If the time you just put into your time-saving ARF is more than you would have put into a kit, and it certainly sounds like that's what happened, then you could have built a kit and come out far ahead.
Matter of fact, no matter what amount of time you'd invested in a kit, you would have gotten more than a 100% return on the time. You would have examined every piece that went into it. You'd have insured that every joint was glued adequately with appropriate glue. You'd have no worries at all about the quality and suitability of the wood 'hidden' under covering, because it wouldn't have been hidden at all.
But then, you've already made the decision that led to your investment in that ARF.
You WILL be learning how to do this modeling thing with ARFs. Just like earlier modelers learned their skills. Only difference is, they learned how to fix the problems that happen to pop up, and they very, very seldom were cheated along the way.
You might consider how much fun you get out of the hobby as you go. If it turns out to be of real value to you, then consider whether or not it has 'hidden' value in the craftsmanship side. If not, then you really don't have much reason to do anything other than what you're learning right now, which is what price ARF are you going to want next time, and did you get enough value out of that piece of junk (your description) to make another gamble with the same odds.
Matter of fact, no matter what amount of time you'd invested in a kit, you would have gotten more than a 100% return on the time. You would have examined every piece that went into it. You'd have insured that every joint was glued adequately with appropriate glue. You'd have no worries at all about the quality and suitability of the wood 'hidden' under covering, because it wouldn't have been hidden at all.
But then, you've already made the decision that led to your investment in that ARF.
You WILL be learning how to do this modeling thing with ARFs. Just like earlier modelers learned their skills. Only difference is, they learned how to fix the problems that happen to pop up, and they very, very seldom were cheated along the way.
You might consider how much fun you get out of the hobby as you go. If it turns out to be of real value to you, then consider whether or not it has 'hidden' value in the craftsmanship side. If not, then you really don't have much reason to do anything other than what you're learning right now, which is what price ARF are you going to want next time, and did you get enough value out of that piece of junk (your description) to make another gamble with the same odds.
11-18-2012, 08:30 AM
#5
My Feedback: (-1)
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
Not all ARFs are created equal. Even in the world of ARFs you get what you pay for. Usually in the bigger sizes the quality is much better. I have assembled a number of the Nitroplanes ARFs for people and found this to be true. The big surprise is when you remove the covering for whatever reason and see some of the hidden flaws. When I assemble an ARF for someone I ask in advance if they want to use all the hardware that came with the plane. Most the time it is junk but you can make it work.
I have noticed the guys only get about one flying season before they replace there cheap planes either due to stress or the mystery crash, often hardware related. I think planes from places like Aeroworks are way over priced but they tend to last a lot longer. They use real wood {not much of it} and have very good hardware. In the end I think the extra money is worth it for a higher quality.
I am talking about the 30cc and bigger planes. Wild Hare is another pretty good ARF and they sell the hardware pack on the side, all good stuff that will save you a trip to the hobby shop.
As a builder I will admire a persons new ARF, they have the covering down to a science and they all look great. With a bit of time and money they are pretty good planes and usually are outstanding flying machines. You have to decide for yourself how much more time and money you want to put into one though.
If I was ever to buy one I think I would save up and buy one of the better brands though instead of rebuilding the cheaper models. Just another one of those choice things.
I have noticed the guys only get about one flying season before they replace there cheap planes either due to stress or the mystery crash, often hardware related. I think planes from places like Aeroworks are way over priced but they tend to last a lot longer. They use real wood {not much of it} and have very good hardware. In the end I think the extra money is worth it for a higher quality.
I am talking about the 30cc and bigger planes. Wild Hare is another pretty good ARF and they sell the hardware pack on the side, all good stuff that will save you a trip to the hobby shop.
As a builder I will admire a persons new ARF, they have the covering down to a science and they all look great. With a bit of time and money they are pretty good planes and usually are outstanding flying machines. You have to decide for yourself how much more time and money you want to put into one though.
If I was ever to buy one I think I would save up and buy one of the better brands though instead of rebuilding the cheaper models. Just another one of those choice things.
11-18-2012, 08:51 AM
#6
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
I don't look at spending time doing this hobby as work. Whether it be building, flying or repairing. When it comes to this hobby the word "labor" is not in my vocabulary.
If I made a regular habit of wrestling with substandard ARFS, then that might change my tune a little bit...?
If I made a regular habit of wrestling with substandard ARFS, then that might change my tune a little bit...?
11-18-2012, 09:44 AM
#7
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
I have done a lot of scratch building, kits and arfs over the years. I have found that even the same kit or arf from different production runs can change. I have bought arf's just to pull the covering off so I could recover it the way I wanted to. of course I did a full once over to make sure it was built well. Biggest problem I have seen in arfs is they use thin ca glue for almost every thing. I had a Model Tech Formula 3D that had the tail section built out of ply with a dab of thin ca here and there. Tail almost came out when flying. Lots of epoxy later she was back in the air. I do not have the time nor can I stand at the bench like I used to. So spending a little extra time on a budget arf gets me the best of both worlds. I know it is put together well and I did not spend the time I would to build a kit.
We spend our time to enjoy this HOBBY. If it is scratch building a museum quality static display model or a bare bones cheap foam arf, it is all good fun.
Buzz.
We spend our time to enjoy this HOBBY. If it is scratch building a museum quality static display model or a bare bones cheap foam arf, it is all good fun.
Buzz.
11-18-2012, 09:57 AM
#8
Senior Member
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
If the workmanship was horrible and the pre-glued hinges could be pulled out by hand, you really didn't buy a model airplane. You placed a bet.
You placed a bet with no odds, especially none in your favor.
In fact, the covering job you admire probably covers some odds against you. Anyone who can't glue in reliable hinges will have no clue about wood selection. The bet is they wouldn't know bad wood if it poked them in the eye every time they tried to glue it into the horizontal stabilizer. You are betting your RX, engine, and time spent every time you fly it.
Hope you win the bet. Honest.
But I hope even more that most who read this thread will see just how much you've spent in money... how much you've spent in time you didn't plan for... how much effort you've spent... and how much you're risking.
You placed a bet with no odds, especially none in your favor.
In fact, the covering job you admire probably covers some odds against you. Anyone who can't glue in reliable hinges will have no clue about wood selection. The bet is they wouldn't know bad wood if it poked them in the eye every time they tried to glue it into the horizontal stabilizer. You are betting your RX, engine, and time spent every time you fly it.
Hope you win the bet. Honest.
But I hope even more that most who read this thread will see just how much you've spent in money... how much you've spent in time you didn't plan for... how much effort you've spent... and how much you're risking.
11-18-2012, 10:20 AM
#9
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
I appreciate all of the viewpoints. Really gives me some thinking points to ponder. Having flown some of the better ARFs, you find some just have a good "feel" to them. Extreme Flight comes to mind and my 50cc EF 300 Extra is a doll baby from the word GO. The quality is just there and you know it.
I don't want the kit builders to think I am in any ways against kit building. I love to see a good kit build and many guys I fly with only build and they build high quality planes. I do believe that one day in the years to come I will build from a kit. I just don't think that time is now.
I have already been looking into a kit for the future when time affords me the luxury of building. I understand what it means to know what you build as I have built many things in my lifetime. Even some houses so I am aware of the joy of a finished product that you built and the pride invovled and you do know every piece of it. There is a true sense of accomplishment and that belongs to the builder.
I did take a chance or risk on the ARF in my beginning post. Here is the way I look at that ARF - I would not want another with that much work involved, yet I certainly would consider one with 25-50% less work than that one had and thus some of the reasoning behind this thread. Is that possible with ARFs? I certainly think so, but I imagine it has to be high end ARFs like EF, AW, Pilot, RedWing, etc. If the ARF gives me another solid flying season then the investment will be passible for me and a good learning experience.
Again, the time each of you have given to express your viewpoints it is very much appreciated and well received.
On a side note, one of the guys had a beautiful kit built Extra 300 50cc at the field the other day. He built if from an older kit, but it was very well done. Where do folks get the sport kits from these days?
I don't want the kit builders to think I am in any ways against kit building. I love to see a good kit build and many guys I fly with only build and they build high quality planes. I do believe that one day in the years to come I will build from a kit. I just don't think that time is now.
I have already been looking into a kit for the future when time affords me the luxury of building. I understand what it means to know what you build as I have built many things in my lifetime. Even some houses so I am aware of the joy of a finished product that you built and the pride invovled and you do know every piece of it. There is a true sense of accomplishment and that belongs to the builder.
I did take a chance or risk on the ARF in my beginning post. Here is the way I look at that ARF - I would not want another with that much work involved, yet I certainly would consider one with 25-50% less work than that one had and thus some of the reasoning behind this thread. Is that possible with ARFs? I certainly think so, but I imagine it has to be high end ARFs like EF, AW, Pilot, RedWing, etc. If the ARF gives me another solid flying season then the investment will be passible for me and a good learning experience.
Again, the time each of you have given to express your viewpoints it is very much appreciated and well received.
On a side note, one of the guys had a beautiful kit built Extra 300 50cc at the field the other day. He built if from an older kit, but it was very well done. Where do folks get the sport kits from these days?
11-18-2012, 11:13 AM
#10
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
ORIGINAL: Luchnia
I appreciate all of the viewpoints. Really gives me some thinking points to ponder. Having flown some of the better ARFs, you find some just have a good ''feel'' to them. Extreme Flight comes to mind and my 50cc EF 300 Extra is a doll baby from the word GO. The quality is just there and you know it.
I don't want the kit builders to think I am in any ways against kit building. I love to see a good kit build and many guys I fly with only build and they build high quality planes. I do believe that one day in the years to come I will build from a kit. I just don't think that time is now.
I have already been looking into a kit for the future when time affords me the luxury of building. I understand what it means to know what you build as I have built many things in my lifetime. Even some houses so I am aware of the joy of a finished product that you built and the pride invovled and you do know every piece of it. There is a true sense of accomplishment and that belongs to the builder.
I did take a chance or risk on the ARF in my beginning post. Here is the way I look at that ARF - I would not want another with that much work involved, yet I certainly would consider one with 25-50% less work than that one had and thus some of the reasoning behind this thread. Is that possible with ARFs? I certainly think so, but I imagine it has to be high end ARFs like EF, AW, Pilot, RedWing, etc. If the ARF gives me another solid flying season then the investment will be passible for me and a good learning experience.
Again, the time each of you have given to express your viewpoints it is very much appreciated and well received.
On a side note, one of the guys had a beautiful kit built Extra 300 50cc at the field the other day. He built if from an older kit, but it was very well done. Where do folks get the sport kits from these days?
I appreciate all of the viewpoints. Really gives me some thinking points to ponder. Having flown some of the better ARFs, you find some just have a good ''feel'' to them. Extreme Flight comes to mind and my 50cc EF 300 Extra is a doll baby from the word GO. The quality is just there and you know it.
I don't want the kit builders to think I am in any ways against kit building. I love to see a good kit build and many guys I fly with only build and they build high quality planes. I do believe that one day in the years to come I will build from a kit. I just don't think that time is now.
I have already been looking into a kit for the future when time affords me the luxury of building. I understand what it means to know what you build as I have built many things in my lifetime. Even some houses so I am aware of the joy of a finished product that you built and the pride invovled and you do know every piece of it. There is a true sense of accomplishment and that belongs to the builder.
I did take a chance or risk on the ARF in my beginning post. Here is the way I look at that ARF - I would not want another with that much work involved, yet I certainly would consider one with 25-50% less work than that one had and thus some of the reasoning behind this thread. Is that possible with ARFs? I certainly think so, but I imagine it has to be high end ARFs like EF, AW, Pilot, RedWing, etc. If the ARF gives me another solid flying season then the investment will be passible for me and a good learning experience.
Again, the time each of you have given to express your viewpoints it is very much appreciated and well received.
On a side note, one of the guys had a beautiful kit built Extra 300 50cc at the field the other day. He built if from an older kit, but it was very well done. Where do folks get the sport kits from these days?
Bob
11-18-2012, 12:54 PM
#11
My Feedback: (-1)
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
The cost of kits started going nuts a long time ago. On top of there price you still had to replace a lot of items like cowls and wheel pants with after market glass parts. Those prices caused me to start building from plans. When people look at plans they can be put off right away, no instructions or photos to walk you through the build so if you haven't built a lot of kits then just looking at plans can be daunting.
Depending on the size of the plane, plans building can save you a pile of money and still get you a nice big plane. Smaller planes can cost you more to build though.
All plans building entails is cutting your own kit from wood you have selected. It takes me about two hours to cut a kit myself. Last 80 inch plane I built cost me about $150.00 to build but I already had the canopy and landing gear on hand. The cost of the plans were about $20.00. I made a few mods and the plane was good for up to a 50cc, I used a 40cc because I had one on hand.
A good selection of kits is a thing of the past but there are still some being made. Plans are easy to locate and the selection is better then the old days of hobby shops stocked from wall to wall with kits. Plans building doesn't call for a lot of tools either, it can be done with a simple scroll saw and a sander. As a kid I was able to cut my own with a single edge razor blade and a sheet of sand paper.
Building isn't for everyone and ARFs have brought a lot of people into the hobby of flying. I don't use ARFs but these days I'm the only builder I know. Doesn't mater what you are flying as long as you enjoy the hobby. If you get a full season or two from a cheap ARF then it was money well spent.
Take a look at some of the planes offered by a plans service like M.A.N. plans, RCM Plans or even the AMA has a plans service. A lot of planes to dream about building at just those three sites.
Depending on the size of the plane, plans building can save you a pile of money and still get you a nice big plane. Smaller planes can cost you more to build though.
All plans building entails is cutting your own kit from wood you have selected. It takes me about two hours to cut a kit myself. Last 80 inch plane I built cost me about $150.00 to build but I already had the canopy and landing gear on hand. The cost of the plans were about $20.00. I made a few mods and the plane was good for up to a 50cc, I used a 40cc because I had one on hand.
A good selection of kits is a thing of the past but there are still some being made. Plans are easy to locate and the selection is better then the old days of hobby shops stocked from wall to wall with kits. Plans building doesn't call for a lot of tools either, it can be done with a simple scroll saw and a sander. As a kid I was able to cut my own with a single edge razor blade and a sheet of sand paper.
Building isn't for everyone and ARFs have brought a lot of people into the hobby of flying. I don't use ARFs but these days I'm the only builder I know. Doesn't mater what you are flying as long as you enjoy the hobby. If you get a full season or two from a cheap ARF then it was money well spent.
Take a look at some of the planes offered by a plans service like M.A.N. plans, RCM Plans or even the AMA has a plans service. A lot of planes to dream about building at just those three sites.
11-18-2012, 01:56 PM
#12
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
In the early 2000s, there was the perfect economic match of business and consumers. Quality arfs were being made and were cheap; capitalizing on new business rush . There was a lot of hunger for the pre-made models. Lots of sales. Lots did not think it would end. Entropy has been taking over since. Cheap and quality are not together, and new offerings are fewer. The market flooded. The requirement for cheap over quality will always keep quality dropping to keep the price. The problem I have with arfs is there is no enjoyable task. What I get is a box of all the problems I hate to deal with when building a plane. I would rather get some of the fun parts like in a kit or scratch.
11-18-2012, 03:00 PM
#13
My Feedback: (118)
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RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
Nothing against kit builders. I just can't imagine the months worth of time spent at the gluing board and NOt be able to fly merit the difference (if any) in quality. Even a CMP ARF will last a while if one doesn't beat the hell out of it. One can buy a Pilot RC ARF and it will hold up to most anything. I've witnessed the hardest 3D fliers at my field put them through the paces big time.
A name brand ARF is a good investment.. If for some reason a kit build would guaranty flying characteristis, longevity, that would be one thing. My ARFs have lasted as long as I don't do something stupid. Stupid wrecks any kind of build! I don't rat the hell out of them either. Treat them with respect and they will last. Build them with intellect and they will fly awesome. I grant the "quality" isn't the same but this hobby is about flying. That's the reason they build these planes.
My suggestion is that you can have a kit plane to keep you occupied on the bad weather days, bad wife mood days, bad day at the election booth days but have as many flyable planes as you can afford and get in the air as much as you can.
Whether kit boys agree or not, time spent at the glue table costs something. Everyone's time is worth something. ARF's give a pilot the opportunity not to spend time away from the field.
A name brand ARF is a good investment.. If for some reason a kit build would guaranty flying characteristis, longevity, that would be one thing. My ARFs have lasted as long as I don't do something stupid. Stupid wrecks any kind of build! I don't rat the hell out of them either. Treat them with respect and they will last. Build them with intellect and they will fly awesome. I grant the "quality" isn't the same but this hobby is about flying. That's the reason they build these planes.
My suggestion is that you can have a kit plane to keep you occupied on the bad weather days, bad wife mood days, bad day at the election booth days but have as many flyable planes as you can afford and get in the air as much as you can.
Whether kit boys agree or not, time spent at the glue table costs something. Everyone's time is worth something. ARF's give a pilot the opportunity not to spend time away from the field.
11-18-2012, 03:22 PM
#14
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
ORIGINAL: pmerritt
My suggestion is that you can have a kit plane to keep you occupied on the bad weather days, bad wife mood days, bad day at the election booth days but have as many flyable planes as you can afford and get in the air as much as you can.
My suggestion is that you can have a kit plane to keep you occupied on the bad weather days, bad wife mood days, bad day at the election booth days but have as many flyable planes as you can afford and get in the air as much as you can.
When weather is adequate I fly - I don't hang in the shop and tinker. Flying is the thing I enjoy most and thus ARFs fill the void for me. I looked at some of the Carden kits and almost fell out in the floor when I saw the prices! WOW...those birds are expensive, very nice, but seem you are paying the premium.
I was at the field a couple weeks ago talking to a long time builder (been building over 30+ years) and he told me that what it cost to build now has really gotten high. He said quality wood is high, hardware is higher, and just everything overall is at a premium cost. He also stated that kit and plan building was almost not worth it now days. I think one of his biggest issues was how much wood has went up in price.
11-18-2012, 04:06 PM
#15
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RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
The simple answer to the OP's question is however much you, keyword here is you, willing to do or want to do. This hobby is about what the individual want's irregardless of other's. I personally don't care what someone else buy's, build's, assemble's. etc. etc. etc.
I like all version's at different point's in time. If I don't want to build it then it's an arf. An example is, I really have been wanting a pitts. RCGuys has one but I have the time, and desire, so I will build it from plans. My Ultimate is an ARF from Great Planes. I wanted one and did not have the desire to buld it. So! It really is just a matter of what you, the individual, wants. Nothing more nothing less.
Enjoy whichever aspect you desire.
I like all version's at different point's in time. If I don't want to build it then it's an arf. An example is, I really have been wanting a pitts. RCGuys has one but I have the time, and desire, so I will build it from plans. My Ultimate is an ARF from Great Planes. I wanted one and did not have the desire to buld it. So! It really is just a matter of what you, the individual, wants. Nothing more nothing less.
Enjoy whichever aspect you desire.
11-18-2012, 04:14 PM
#16
Senior Member
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RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
Having been a kit builder since the age of 8 and now going on 70, I find that their is always an area that can be improved upon. Whether it be a kit build or an ARF. We all like to add our personal touches, or should I say our personal improvements. Its all part of the hobby.
I have never considered that I was putting in too much time on any ARF, that I have assembled. I just felt that it was time well spent in order to have a stronger, better and longer lasting model.
With all this said, you build a kit. With an ARF, you are assembling.
I have never considered that I was putting in too much time on any ARF, that I have assembled. I just felt that it was time well spent in order to have a stronger, better and longer lasting model.
With all this said, you build a kit. With an ARF, you are assembling.
11-18-2012, 04:35 PM
#17
My Feedback: (-1)
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
ORIGINAL: Granpooba
Having been a kit builder since the age of 8 and now going on 70, I find that their is always an area that can be improved upon. Whether it be a kit build or an ARF. We all like to add our personal touches, or should I say our personal improvements. Its all part of the hobby.
I have never considered that I was putting in too much time on any ARF, that I have assembled. I just felt that it was time well spent in order to have a stronger, better and longer lasting model.
With all this said, you build a kit. With an ARF, you are assembling.
Having been a kit builder since the age of 8 and now going on 70, I find that their is always an area that can be improved upon. Whether it be a kit build or an ARF. We all like to add our personal touches, or should I say our personal improvements. Its all part of the hobby.
I have never considered that I was putting in too much time on any ARF, that I have assembled. I just felt that it was time well spent in order to have a stronger, better and longer lasting model.
With all this said, you build a kit. With an ARF, you are assembling.
Being retired young I have never look at building time as cost, it's all free time and it keeps me out of the Casino's and strip clubs.
Just that is money in my pockets so if I wanted I could think of building as an income.
11-18-2012, 05:00 PM
#18
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RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
i buy most of my planes at the swap meets>> got a 120 size space walker for 15.00 tore the cover off and put the color i wanted put on a 20cc gas engine and it is nice>>but the cover cost of plane 70.00 very nice i do this to most of my planes and that gives you a change to see what needs to be done to the plane
11-18-2012, 05:11 PM
#19
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
I enjoy building kits, and modifying ARFs but my real passion is scratch building giant scale airplanes, its a hobby and it offers something for everyone so do as you wish and most of all have fun.
Bob
Bob
11-18-2012, 07:13 PM
#20
My Feedback: (7)
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
ORIGINAL: Luchnia
Work done to the plane:
4. Strengthen some areas in the hull with thinned Epoxy (I do this anyway).
Work done to the plane:
4. Strengthen some areas in the hull with thinned Epoxy (I do this anyway).
11-18-2012, 07:18 PM
#21
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RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
i dont want to sound cheap but being 80 yrs old and on ss is not to much to spend but i got 45 yrs under my belt of flying and i do have fun
11-18-2012, 08:11 PM
#22
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
ORIGINAL: pmerritt
Nothing against kit builders. I just can't imagine the months worth of time spent at the gluing board and NOt be able to fly merit the difference (if any) in quality. .......
Nothing against kit builders. I just can't imagine the months worth of time spent at the gluing board and NOt be able to fly merit the difference (if any) in quality. .......
11-18-2012, 09:02 PM
#23
Moderator
RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
My way of thinking about it is to tally up how much time I'll have to put in and figure up what I paid myself in savings. Then I have to decide if I would have rather spent that time at the airfield or working on some other project. So if you spent $325 in actual dollars and (for the sake of argument) could have bought a better quality ARF for $450, you got $125 for your time. It sounds like you probably invested a solid 10 hours at least on fixing the things that were wrong with your plane, so that's $12.50 an hour you paid yourself to rework a shoddy ARF. That's assuming of course that the plane flies properly and has a good service life. If the plane has a mechanical failure due to bad wood or shoddy workmanship then all your savings are gone plus some. So given what you actually saved yourself, would you have rather spent the extra money and been out flying the plane for probably 3-4 extra trips to the airfield? And possibly more importantly, do you think that the plane as it sits is going to last as long and perform as well as the more expensive name brand one? Your answers to those questions are what determines whether or not you actually did well in reworking this Chinese made piece of junk into something flyable.
On a positive note, congratulations on completing the assembly and making it into something you're proud of. Sometimes these "problem child" planes are the ones we wind up loving the most.
On a positive note, congratulations on completing the assembly and making it into something you're proud of. Sometimes these "problem child" planes are the ones we wind up loving the most.
11-18-2012, 10:29 PM
#25
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RE: How much work is too much on an ARF?
Hobbies are something you do that is fun or makes you become relaxed and get some stress off of your normal life. Ive been doing this for about 15 years and tend to stick to the name brand ARFS that i and other club members have used in the past. Same thing for engines, people usually pick certain brands and stay with them. In this case sometimes you will run into a good deal and take a chance on one you might not be familiar with. I usually build from kits for sport type flying like the Goldberg Tiger 2. My others a Hangar 9 60sz Corsair, Hangar 9 60sz P-40, Hangar 9 Miss America P-51, Top flite Cessna 182 i usually go arf and add details. To each there own and just remember its about having a good time.[8D]