speedracerntrixie

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Pretty much finished up on the stabs and elevators. All thet really needs to be done is to bevel the elevators and install a hard point for the control horn. The picture makes the stabs look huge but they are proportionate to the rest of the airplane. No more excuses, I have to start on the wings. Rest of the week will be making templates and working on sheeting, won't get a chance to pick up some foam until Friday. More to come.

doxilia

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Nice work SRT!

I'm still baffled by your stab planform though. The tips seem considerably longer in chord than scale would indicate. The scale model has substantial LE taper on both the wing and stab. They are naturally both straight along the TE.

I take it you took some liberty to depart from scale in the surface planform?

David

speedracerntrixie

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David, the picture is a little deceiving but you are correct in that the stabs have about 80% the taper of the full scale Dalo. If you remember I already had some templates left over from a different build and decided that they were close enough. I just did the wing layout and the taper for the wings will be a bit more correct. The root is 13.5" and the tip is 8.5" with each pannel being 30" span. This gives me a wing area of 660 sq. I need to look at some of the other classic pattern airplanes to see if the area is in the ball park. Pretty sure it is. Of course any feedback is appriciated.

Edit: After drawing out the wings at the dimentions I had designed it was obvious that they would be too small. I increased span and overall cord. The updated wing will be 750 sq. I will also have to move the wing tube placement to provide enough room for the retracts. Work in process LOL

doxilia

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SRT,

I now see how you're going about things.

660 squares is in the ballpark for a 45-50 size model. 60 size models typically have no less than 700 squares with classics like the DB being more of exception with 690 if I recall correctly. For a good performing pattern model (not necessarily a ballistic model but more of a TOC style semi scale model), 750 to 800 squares might be more in order.

30" per panel (~64" span), sounds about right but you might need a tad more chord on them. The nice thing us that you can always easily make a larger wing if desired.

David

Edit: it looks like you were editing whe I was posting. 750 should do nicely. That wing taper looks much better. The stab looks a tad odd but I'm sure it'll fly beautifully.

dave pattern

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one thing to consider is that on all the old models with one piece wings, the area was figured including the fuselage covered center section.
i think speed is excluding that. if he adds that back in it would be closer to the old designs.
what is the area of the stab in relation to the wing? it might be something to consider also. it looks big but its hard to say without numbers.
Dave.

doxilia

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750 to 800 squares wing tip root to wing tip root total area (omitted fuse area included) would be a good size wing for this bird. I would go with a total span of 64" (across the fuse). A ~22% stab area might be appropriate (~175 squares and ~25" span) for this size wing.

My inclination would be to reverse engineer it: Figure out what kind of wing loading one wants, estimate the AUW of the model (or build it to that weight) and then produce a wing that brings the model into that ball park for loading. In all likelihood, it would come in around the same number of squares mentioned above.

David

speedracerntrixie

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Dave is correct in that I am figuring the area of the wing panels only. The panels have a span of 32" and the fuse is 3.5" wide so actual span is 67.5". The stab is 28" span and has 210 sq in. This is a little large for a .60 size airplane but it will be around 8 lbs. The Rossi has spun an 11X11 at 13,500 so I'm thinking it will do a 12X8 or 13X7 around 12K. The stab may be a little large by some peoples thoughts but after flying many Extra 260-300 airplanes, I am convinced that one of the reasons they fly so well is that the stabs are fairly large too. We will eventually find out. Been getting the engine mounting all sorted out and cutting out the cowl. Need to get a Cline regulator, I'm not even going to try to run an inverted ABC engine without a pump.

doxilia

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At the risk of repeating myself, nice work Speed!

The proportions of the wing and stab sound much better now. You're approaching the size of an Aurora so I see no issue with it flying beautifully with a pumped monster like a Rossi 3+2!

Any thoughts on the pro's and con's of cline's vs perry's? I picked up a Perry VP20 which will probably first go into my inverted ST X61 Calypso. No pipe tunnel but otherwise a somewhat similar model to the Dalo.

I recently read new (i.e., current production) Rossi instructions (Axe Rossi) and there prop and fuel recommendations are nothing like they used to be. Props are larger and they recommend up to 20% nitro! In the past it used to be 5% max but they run fine on FAI sort of thing. Props on 60's were to be no larger than 11x7-1/2; now they are talking about 12x8's!

David

speedracerntrixie

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David, What i have found out with this Rossi is that it is a torque monster. I originally set it up with a shorter pipe and propped it to run in the 15K range. At first I was running a 9X10 to get that RPM. The race pane it was on was dog slow. I lengthened the pipe and put on a 10X10. Got better. I lengthened the pipe again and put on a 11X10 anf that got the single most speed jump. The next step was a Picco 12mm carb, one more inch in length and a header dia of 7/8". That got me 13,500 with an 11X11 on the ground. The engine is not on the pipe at that point. It is very obvious after the airplane picks up some speed and hits the pipe, it's gotta be a 1,000 RPM jump. It will be somewhat de-tuned in the Dalotel.

speedracerntrixie

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Things have been pretty busy lately but I had some time to cut the wing cores today. Over the next few days I will be making the wing tube sleeves and retract mounts. I have a fairly unique way of cutting the foam for the wing socket. The retract mount will be incorporated into the outter sleeve support as well. Should be fun.

speedracerntrixie

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Small steps lately, I have been asked a few times over the past weeks about wing sockets so I decided to show those being made. It's fairly simple. Here I have covered some 7/8" cardboard tubes with mylar tape, then applyed a carnuba wax. Then some 2 oz cloth was wetted out and the rolled onto the tube. When the epoxy cures the sleeves will simply be popped off the tubes.

speedracerntrixie

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Thanks to Scott, my header arrived today. I don't think we could have nailed the fit any better.

PatternPilot

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speed,

Your welcome...that header does look good !

speedracerntrixie

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Made up the retract mounts and popped the sleeves off the carboard tubes. You can see the layout on the core. There will be a sub rib that will run full depth and become an anchor for both the wing sleeve and the retract mount.

MTK

SRT, why the cardboard tube as male plug? Why not the wing tube you plan to use?

speedracerntrixie

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Matt, the actual wing tube has not been delivered yet. The OD of the carboard tube and the CF wing tube I have on order are both 7/8". Still some risk making the parts ahead of time and they may require some rework but I went forward anyway. The YS came on Friday and I have torn it down cleaned it and am waiting for bearings. Looks like it does not have much use. Looks like I am going to change gears and use the YS on the Dalotel. Rossi makes an adapter that is a bolt on to the YS that will allow me to use the header I got from scott.

doxilia

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SRT,

That's a moment of excellent insight. The Rossi to YS adapters that is.

Do you have a link to the adapter that will fit the YS? BTW, what YS are we talking about; a long or short stroke. I believe the lug spacing is a tad different.

David

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

David, It's a 61LS that I got from MTK. Yes I did find out that the mounting hole spacing on the YS is narrower then the Rossi. I already have the mount drilled and tapped for the Rossi so I think the YS will end up with slotted lugs ( Gasp ). Even if I already did not have the header, I don't like the idea of hard mounting a header on the engine with a couple of 3MM screws. Here is the link to the adapter. The 3.5 mm screws will have to be replaced.

http://shop.vendio.com/RossiEnginesU...754/index.html

While on the subject, I placed the order for the adapter and a 9MM drive washer on Sat morn. A couple hours later I got a call from Sahak to verify if I was ordering the correct parts because there was no engine that both parts would fit. Great customer service as well as Scott helping me select the header and getting it to me in two days. Looks like Rossi is going to be hard to beat with this kind of customer service between the two.

MTK

Yes correct. Practically new engine. I suggest you use standard break in at first for the first 10 tanks or so. I don't think I ran it long enough for full break in. It was the last 60 sizeI bought before going into the big blocks....I still have NIB Mintor 170 and Webra 145 that I'll never use; since discovering the smaller gas engines, they are all I use now. Dead reliable and as strong as YS170/175 or a little stronger (which I don't need and don't use BTW, I never go above 2/3rds throttle, and run mostly at 40%)

On the sockets, come to think of it, it shouldn't be an issue either way, small or large. I'm sure you know how to fix it IF it's off a little.

The YS long strokes were stump pullers on a stretched pipe. Use enough load on it and you won't be disappointed. I used to run KB1L plugs with 15% cool power.

speedracerntrixie

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I got the YS case mounted up and it really could not be a better fit in the cowl. With the Rossi I was going to have to cut a fairly large hole for the carb ( picco 80 DF carb ) but the Dalo cowl and YS seem to have been made for one another.

speedracerntrixie

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The adapter came in today. It is agreat fit, maybe even better then when on the Rossi. It moved the headed back 1/4" and eliminates the need to notch the bottom of the cowl. Now if the wing tube would get here I can move forward with the wings.

speedracerntrixie

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Wing tube came in, the sleeves are a perfect fit. Now I can resume in the wings. Bearings should be here today and I can finish rebuilding the YS.

speedracerntrixie

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Time to install retract mounts and wing sleeve supports. Whenever possible I like to combine parts into one. Here I have cut the wings where the tube ends. I find it much easier to cut the hole for the wing sleeve this way. The foam has been recessed for the gear plate and the sleeve inserted. Next is the false rib that supports the gear plate and the sleeve. The root rib will be next and then it will be time to glue it all together.

MTK

SRT,

Hmmmm, be careful here. You are creating a significant stress riser right at the end of the socket. It may workok on a 60 sized model but still, you may want to move the riser beyond this very busy area (mechanically busy that is).

Let me suggest that you add a set of short subspars that extend from just before your retract mount to 3"-4" beyond the socket's end, centered on the socket. I use 3/32"" medium balsa for subspars with grain running spanwise. Depth is all the way to the socket. These are shaved even with the foam surface and the sheeting is glued directly to the subspars also. If you looked at a cross section, it would look like an "I" beam. I use gorilla glue and foam it highly to secure both the socket and subspars. On the lighter 60 sized model, only the bottom needs the subspar.

On the larger wings of the 2 meter birds I add subspars to top and bottom from root to 4" beyond the socket's end, in lieu of the liteply false ribs. It's a light andvery secure way to reinforce wing panels with minimal weight gain.

speedracerntrixie

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Matt, I see what you are saying and the stress riser possibility will be taken care of during the sheeting phase. This will be the third airplane I have done this way with the exception of the gear mounts. Both my 2M Pattern Laser and my 33% Laser were built this way. To eliminate the stress riser on those two models I ran some unidirectional CF from the root rib out about 25% span past the wing socket. On the Dalo I don't see the need for CF so will most likely use a 3" band of 4 oz fiberglass cloth. The gear plate area and top of sub rib will get an additional layer. Of course this cloth application will go between the foam and sheeting.