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ORIGINAL: still4given

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ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie

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ORIGINAL: still4given

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ORIGINAL: speedracerntrixie

The 115 is faster then the 120. I have seen a few of these airplanes fly at Sam's and they are always fast. I think I heard that Sam's has been talking about excluding this wing saying that the outline is not scale enough. The tip cord is too small. How is the 3 blade prop working?

That's too funny. I have seen pics of the SAM's races where guys have P51's with straight leading edges. Every time someone goes faster than the old boys club, they start talking about outline, color scheme, T designation. It's never ending.

I'm so glad we don't have to worry about that in RCPRO.

Blessings, Terry

Terry, I would have to disagree, I have been racing at Sam's for the past 3 seasons and have seen zero rules changes in that time. One particular PM Strega was outlawed the previous year for having a strait LE.The airplane as a whole was outlawed because it's just not very scale. It was a decision based on scale outline and not that the airplane was any faster then the rest. That particular airplane was powered with an OS 90 DF and was definetly not keeping up with the YS 115 powered airplanes. IMO as a scale racing orginization we have to better define the term '' Scale outline '' IMAC had the same issue decades ago and went with a 10% deviation with the ultimate call going to the CD. It was not unusual to see guys carrying 3 veiws and specs for the full scale aircraft and documentation that supported the model was within 10%. One must also thing of safety. You are aware that the PM strega wing is not in any means overbuilt. 1/16'' sheet ribs with no caps, balsa spars, 1/16 sheeting. I think we can agree that most guys are not able to go in and beef that up enough to hold up to gold speeds.

Several of us have flown PM Stregas in the Gold class for years in the RCPRO races and I have never seen a Strega wing fail. On the contrary, I have seen several WM P51 wings fail, even in the Silver class. The incidences I was referring to happened more than three years ago and were the reason the AZ guys quit attending the races there. I am a lover of rules, and if the SAM guys don't want PM Stregas at their races that is their choice. At least folks know that before they go there to race. My point is that the wing that Jason makes is closer to scale than a lot of the other stuff I have seen being used at the SAM races. They are not using the SWRA rules and there is no scale judging. Do you think the WM P51 is scale? How about the Kiosho Spitfire? They are all "Stand-off Scale". If they start getting out tape measures, there are a lot of the planes being flow there that will not make the 10% rule.

This thread is about an RCPRO race, and like I said, I am glad we don't have to deal with that any more. At our races, you don't need twice as big a plane to run a two stroke and you can even run electric power if you want to.

The SAM guys can run their races any way they want to, I just think it is funny when I hear someone say they are planning to outlaw another plane that is beating the regulars. It won't matter, Verano will outrun them with something else if they outlaw the plane he is currently using.

Blessings, Terry

At S.A.M., the SWRA racing format was initially popular, but over time interest began to wane. Our participants (including club members AND members of neighboring clubs that regularly attend and have become cherished members of our extended family) expressed concerns that it simply took too much time to build from scratch to ensure a precise scale outline in order to maximize the points available from static judging, and therefore truly be competitive at the end of the day. Were their plane one that would be flown in a scale manner at a scale competition, it would be worth it to them. But, for warbird racing, with its high attrition rate, it wasn’t. The majority just wanted to race, more than build (as has been the trend reflected in the RC hobby in general). This ended up being the “nail in the coffin” of SWRA as a special interest group. Just as the collapse of any great empire results in smaller city-states rising up and forming their own governments from the ashes, so it has been with scale racing. Local groups each established their own rules that they believed best fit the majority interest of their own particular constituency.

To my knowledge, none of us at SAM have ever presumed to tell other clubs how they should conduct their races. As a whole, we respect the fact that membership interests are different, local hobby shops tend to promote different manufacturer’s equipment, etc., and therefore different formats will result. When our members race at other clubs’ events, we appreciate the subtle differences (or “flavors” ) that make each in some way unique and somehow special . . . and therefore worth attending again. I personally would never presume to tell another club that they need to change their tried-and-tested rules or format to fit my unique needs or equipment. I participate in their event to the best of my ability, with what I have, and if I like it enough, I will invest and purpose-build accordingly for the event if I wish to return and truly feel the need to perform at the highest levels. Otherwise, I am just happy to participate and form new friendships.

Yet, for some reason, certain members of other clubs seem to feel the need to dictate our racing format.

Just as “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there's no definition of “Warbird” enshrined somewhere, like 'veteran' and 'vintage' in historic cars, which are generally more precise, date specific terms. Many consider a “Warbird” to be any aircraft with military history (frontline or not) to potentially be included. To my knowledge, the first use of the term was at the latter end of World War One - a book called 'Warbirds' - which only covers aircraft normally excluded by the majority of the modern followers (not surprising as W.W.II hadn't happened yet).

Basically, it can include (or exclude) anything one would want it to. However, in modern practice, it's usually agreed to be aircraft of W.W.II or shortly after. Arguably, most consider the term to refer to weapons used offensively, such as fighters, bombers, and attack aircraft. At SAM, the latter definition has always been our intent for suitable subjects intended as Warbird Racing aircraft at our Reno-style racing events. How anyone could perceive that a “low and slow” Piper J-3 Cub light aircraft intended for flight training fits the intent of aircraft that “have raced in the Unlimited Category of the Reno Air Races” is beyond me. To say that “the Arizona guys” Cub-yellow-painted standard civilian schemed models somehow qualify as a L-19 when even that plane comes nowhere near the purpose of a full-scale race plane either, is poor judgement, and is taking advantage of a perceived loophole in the rules. How giving our guests the benefit of the doubt and allowing these planes to race that season, but then rewording the rules for the following season to specifically ensure that the intent of our events are absolutely crystal-clear to all, can be considered an “incident . . . of [SAM] outlawing another plane that is beating the regulars”, rather than respecting our vision of what Warbird racing is all about, is insulting to the intelligence of anyone who truly knows us, and how we run our events.

SAM rules merely state that models must “approximately resemble the scale outlines of their full scale counterpart.” As a current SAM Contest Director, I have no problem with a Mustang sporting a straight LE - provided the builder understands that the only Mustang with that wing planform was the P-51H. This builder should then take some precautions to more adequately represent a P-51H. To say “some” precautions is a far cry from saying it “must have” the redesigned nose, extended vertical fin, and redesigned scoop under the fuse, etc. Taken straight from Strega’s own website, Strega is a “P-51D-20-NT”. In my opinion, and so many others, the ONLY thing that made the Phoenix Models Strega look anything like a P-51 was the double-taper wing. Replace it with a straight LE wing, and you have removed absolutely everything that represents this plane as its full-scale counterpart. (The under-fuse scoop is nearly indistinguishable, the fillets and vertical fin are grossly misshapen, the shape of the nose is wrong, the cowl has oil cooler inlets on both the top and the bottom, the canopy is huge, the turtle-deck is all wrong, . . . not even the Strega logo or ORANGE coloration remotely resemble this plane.) Terry, if you want to believe we disqualified this plane because “every time someone goes faster than the old boys club, SAM starts talking about outline . . .”, than go right ahead. But, I believe that the majority of those viewing this thread will realize the genuine reasons behind our decision. Especially when they realize that we started talking to the pilots of the PM Stregas about our concerns nearly 2 years before insisting that they come with a model more appropriately reflecting the intent of these events. These pilots had more than enough time to “keep going faster than the old boys”, and more than enough time to adequately prepare for upcoming seasons.

If you want to keep this thread on-track, discussing RCPRO racing, then perhaps you should consider not intentionally slandering another racing organization. If we want to see our organizations prosper, we all need to support each other to help grow interest in the sport, overall. Making malicious statements about any other organization hurts all who participate in this sport, in the long-run. As your signature states, Terry . . . “Speak kindly.”

Marty,

I would love to have you come join us in Sacramento! Heck, I’ve already personally invited you a couple of times within the discussions we’ve had in other threads over the last couple years, and really look forward to meeting you face-to-face. We definitely think we’ve got a good thing going, and am glad you’re picking up on it, too.

For the record, I think Kaze’s P-51 is great, and if you have one that is similar, then you’re both in great shape to come join us.

Earlier today, my friend Tim was helping me with some CAD plans for a truly scale P-51D wing. It was almost surprising to me how small that tip chord really is, in comparison. Chances are that the one pilot at any venue that might mutter about scale shapes, such as that of a wing, does not realize himself that the Mustang wing went through its own evolution and changed shape a couple of times. Besides, there will be 20 other pilots excited that you have at last been able to come join us. As Speedracer said, “you wouldn’t be turned away.” As described in my previous post, I and the other CDs would even welcome a straight LE, as long as SOMETHING was done to make the model look like the version that actually had the straight LE (a P-51H as opposed to a PM Strega fuse).

Please don’t get discouraged by anyone that chooses to make disparaging comments without the facts. Please, if you, or anyone else, have ANY concerns, PM or e-mail me personally and I will gladly set things straight and put you at ease.

To all the RCPRO racers, I’m envious that your weather allows you an even longer race season than we enjoy up North. We’ll have to live vicariously through you for the next couple of months, so keep those posts coming. Best of luck in February’s race, and the upcoming season.

Ollie