oldbassard

Hey Gang

A few weeks ago I posted a question as to the feasability of using leadedracing gasoline in these gasoline engines. Since that time I have been researching the positive and negative effects. There are no negative effects it's all positive. I'll explain wht I have found. Also I'll let you know a few places to find it.

In the first place when they took the lead out of gasoline, all the two stroke engine manufactors started intensive research to find a replacement for it. Lead in gasoline gives the 2 stroke gasser a lubrication inside the cylinders that unleaded leaves the cylinder dry. There is noting worse on them than to use the alcohol mixed gasolines in them.

Two manufactors in the 80'slead the way in research on two stroke oil and improvements, for it that was Stihl and Yamaha. Yamaha still leads the crowd for leaded gasoline two stroke oil, it's so big in thier racing that they keep an eye on it.

110 octane leaded gasoline not only lubricates the cylinder meaning longer engine life, but the engine starts and runs so much better on it. You can even tell a difference in how smooth it runs just ideling.
I can't believe how much easier the engine starts. The power is so much better and engine more responsive..

My gassers are getting 110 octaneracing gasoline and Yamalube racing two stroke oil.

Here theracing gasoline is about $10.00 agallon if you buy it in 5gallon cans. If you take a can to you dealer to get it, it's a bit cheaper.. You can get itr at about any performance shop andI am sure most murdersickle shops sell it. I know yamaha does. at about $50.00 or so for 5 gallons and I don't want to forget to mention, this gasoline has a two year plus shelf life

MTK

Use Avgas 100LL. Same running, less cost

oldbassard

I went to a site and read about AV gas. The content of the lead is being cut back in it from what I have read. They are fazing out the high lead contenet in it and calling it LL Avgas (Lower level lead) Not so in racing gasoline.

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

Its been called 100 LL for decades now and the basic standard hasn't changed much if any over that time. There is a movement to get the lead out of avgas and lots of research is ongoing towards this end but it hasn't happened yet! Frankly, I doubt if it will happen anytime soon, at least in a way that will affect the small number of modelers that use this fuel.

Racing fuels vary widely in their lead content, purity, etc. Bought in bulk from a pump, its even questionable what you're actually buying. Not so with 100LL as you always know what you're getting there.

oldbassard

LOL, OK, in the most friendly way let's agree to disagree.  The gas I use in my drag car always gives consistant time down the strip. Maybe I am just partial LOL

kork

My Feedback: (65)

so explain it to a carpenter so he understands it( me). I have no problem spending more on fuel for my planes or good chainsaws, but will I notice a difference( remember, carpenter).
I would assume from your post it is better for the engine to run lead. Right?
jason

RCVFR

My Feedback: (7)

If you are running a quality engine, use of leaded fuel will void the warranty. If you are running junk engines (as so many of us are) warranty doesn't matter, just replace it (as so many of us do)

oldbassard

Kork YES!

I have done a lot of reading about this very matter. I can't say the two stroke engine companies haven't came up with formulas to make the newer oils protect the engine, BUT any old school mechanic will tell you the same as I posted here about leaded gasoline in two strokers.

And never use gasolinethat has alcohol in it, that is really bad on the cylinder. I did put some leaded racing gasoline in my Stihl chainsaw to test it, it was like putting a turbo on it, daylight and dark differance.

It may void the warranty but my new OS GT22 is getting 110 octane leadedracing gas

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

Maybe if I state it in a different way ......

Bought in bulk from the pump or tank truck at a local track or dealer, circle track or drag strip doesn't matter, in many cases one is not certain as to what kind of racing gas is actually being bought or how fresh it is. The vendor or track bought it from a larger dealer and really only has the word of that jobber what the product actually is. Certainly buying bulk fuel at a large NASCAR track or NHRA national event could be an exception .... but at local tracks, you're on your own. The only way to assure the purity and authenticity of the specific racing fuel you are buying is to buy it in sealed drums or buckets.

Do the research and you'll find more and more racing fuels actually contain ethanol or in some cases methanol. It provides a cheaper, high octane fuel that many find quite acceptable. Even to the point of it being a spec fuel in some areas and at some tracks. In other places, the guys just blindly buy the fuel and don't know what they're actually buying. Of course some tracks / organizations outlaw gasoline that contains any detectable alcohol of any kind. This doesn't really apply to our airplane engines other than one does need to know what is actually being purchased.

As far as leaded fuels being used in 2 stroke engines. I'd like to see the list of engine companies that actually recommend the use of leaded fuels in their engines. I question any claimed benefits. I agree, it certainly smells better .... either fresh in liquid form or as it comes out of the exhaust. I no longer race but when I go to any track and get a whiff of that exhaust, it certainly brings back pleasant memories and instantly changes my mindset. Avgas exhaust just doesn't smell the same.

oldbassard

Hmmm how about availability? maybe some here can get to racing gasoline easier than AV GAS.  You are right, I can't make any claims about the freshness. I can tell you it has a two year shelf life.  You can buy it either by the gallon from a bulk dealer or in the five gallon can. At any rate, my suggestion is just that, I am no authority on gasoline.  I did do some lenghtly reading about it and also the effects of leaded gasoline in the two stroke engine. I'd rather run racing gas than pump gas. But, because you said AV gas is much cheaper, I'll check into it.

  At any rate our discussion here may encourage others who may want to try it to do so. 

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

I think someone else said that Avgas was cheaper. Around here, Avgas and the usual racing fuels are about the same price. I no longer have either fuel readily available so I just use pump gas. It stinks but works just fine as the quality seems fairly good in this part of the country. I've certainly heard plenty of horror stories of poor quality fuels in other areas and have no reason to doubt the truth of that.

kork

My Feedback: (65)

I will be looking into it more thoroughly. I have a couple months before all this snow melts!! And from all the negitive's about amsoil( which I run) I will have one nice smelling, power crazy, china engines!
thanks, Jason

darrolair

Oldbassard,
There's been lots of discussion on this topic.
Gas Engines >> RE: 100 OCTANE aviation fuel in gasser
This is only one example many others.
That's what makes this hobby great. To each there own.
Good luck,
Darrolair

dadragon

as I stated in a few posts I have been hooked up on 100LL for a few years and have had good success with clean and cool running engines,even the chinese jobs run good on it.here comes a can of worms.PENS AIR COOL at 40:1.WHOA.

Brandon15

Smell and color tells you alot about racing gas and if it's actually what you got.(Not very scientific but you can tell if you've been around it.) You also can do a simple test on it to see if it has alcohol. All you need is a graduated cylinder, some water, and do some simple math. Learned how years ago. Been around dirt track racing since I was in diapers. Alcohol also gets a bad rap. Pure ethanol or methanol w/ a carb setup for which ever could actually be a plus and equal more performance than racing gas.

The biggest problem I see is people not running enough oil. More oil is always better to a certain extent...

Can of worms.....

hairy46

My Feedback: (1)

I sell av gas, lead I am sure will stay in it. Its much cheaper then race fuel. We sell it for planes race sleds, I ran it in my race cars.

Tony Hallo

Just saying back in the day when pump gas contained lead my Lawn Boy needed 16 to 1. Take the lead out, add a little ethanoland today we get by with 100 to 1?

Sport_Pilot

I would say you are. The lead is a deadly poison. Switch to methanol. Safer and easier on the engine.

MTK

Any small local or regional airport has Avgas 100LL. A very large percentage of these will sell Avgas 100LL to any buyer with a proper container.Since there are one heck of a lot more airports than race tracks, I'd say Avgas is more available.

On power generation, I have to take your word that race gas is like "putting a turbo on it". I have never run race gas, 110 Octane or any octane number for that matter. I would have to see it to believe it tho. Same engine, same load, same muffling system, back to back runs of autogas and race gas

I know for certain that Avgas 100LL versus premium auto gas, same engine, same load and tuned exhaust,the autogas will outurn Avgas a couple hundred RPM at full throttle. But for me, it doesn't figure at all in the reasons why I use Avgas over autogas.

Sport_Pilot

So where is this proof? You are taking Yamaha's word for this? I have taken many automobile and aircraft engine (full scale) and Isee no benifits from lead. Rather a lot of foulde plugs, stuck valves, and stuck rings. The FAA had better get busy with taking the lead out as I have had aircraft engines with missing cylinders due to stuck valves from lead accumulation. And this from 100LL which is only low lead compared to the older 100 octane. It had more lead than any automotive gas before and more than most racing gas. IMO very little lubrication if only from the relative low concentrations. The deposits left certainly don't lubricate.

Most of this was myth made up by the old Ethyl Gasoline Company. The only real benifit was the large octane boost with very low concentrations, not lubrication. Without it fuel burns hotter causing older valves to overheat, not lack of lubrication.

WWIIP38

My Feedback: (43)

A while back I contacted Fred Sattler, the president of USRA (giant scale racing organization) about fuel and props for stock Zenoah G-62 engines. Here is his reply about fuel;
"The 25:1 oil mix is per Zenoah recommendation and their synthetic oil package works very well. The T-6 racers have to use spec gas and oil as supplied by race management so it made sense to standardize and publish the exact mix formulation for tuning purposes. For sport flying you can use any oil package and mix ratio you want, but for spec racing we had to favor a mix ratio that no one could claim ruined their engine. In testing we've found little or no performance advantage with much leaner oil mixtures and the richer mixture does seem to remove excess heat noticeably better during a hard run.

By far the biggest performance factor is the gasoline octane rating. The G-62 was designed to run on crappy low-octane fuel, around 80 R+M, and power output will drop as octane rating is increased. With VP race gas the G-62 is a dog, best with cheap-o pump gas without too much alcohol in it."

I am using 100LL in my DLE 55 engine because it doesn't stink and doesn't go bad (like pump gas) if it stored for a few months. Power and performance are not better.
Older engines are affected by alcohol in today's pump gas. It tends to cause problems with seals and pump diaphragms. Newer engines have been re-designed to handle today's pump gas.

lohring

I have also done a lot of fuel testing in a modified Zenoah marine engine.  See the article Gasoline in the NAMBA Propwash.  Since it was on an inertial dyno, it wasn't endurance testing.  However, the 40 or so dyno runs were enough to show the power difference from engine break in.  There was no power difference in any of the oils or leaded , non leaded, premium, race gas or Coleman fuels we tested.  Since a lot of model boat racers run 50 octane, non leaded Coleman fuel without problems that can be traced to the fuel. I doubt lead content matters.  Model race boat engines run at higher power and rpm levels than model airplane engines.

Lohring Miller

fred985

the hi-octane gas burns slower to retard detonation in hi compression engines. in lower compression engines it puts out less power. most of our models gas engines are very lowe compression and will run best with the cheepy crap. ave LL100 was introdused so the old engines that used 80 octane could have a fuel. i dont belive any 80 octane av gas is made anymore. the lead is there tpo keep the valve seats from stiking. the old 65 hp cub engines were very low compression and would foul the plugs baddly using the hi-lead 100 so the redused the lead and called it LL100. with some modifications some av engines can be run on car gas. the shelf life of av gas is just about forever. the is NO alky ever in it. ave gas is a completly differnt distalet than car gas/\....just smell it as you can tell they are completlly different. i had a continenal 65,,,a 75,,,two P&W R 985 450s and flew them for near 1000 hours. i also delivered huindreds of loads of 100LL to airports all over the north east. the race gas used at the rase tracks is made by VP race gas....i have no idea where it is made because i never hauled any in my big truck.i run 83 car gas in all my models , weed wackers, chain saws etc and the run just fine but i alwas use more oil that there call for . my harley 88 and my old 74 never seemed to run any better with av gas,,,,,it just cost way more.

Brandon15

That was pretty much my experience with a DA 50, G-62, and a couple of GT-80sw/ Cam 2...Performance wasn't any better also cranked and idled like shiat!

cbooth1979

My Feedback: (22)

I run VP 94 octane small engine fuel/amsoil mix. Expensive at $11 a gallon but is well worth it imo. Running 110 octane in a low compression engine is a waste of time and will probably run worse. 110 octane needs like 13:1-14:1 comp ratio to really work well. The main reason I run the VP fuel is for the no ethonal and the fact that it will last more than 6 weeks.