flyingagin

Zor

You may find that the expiration date has extended considerably with models taking advantae of light but strong fabric or silk.

I have never used silver. I am hoping we may get some idea how quick the covering is estimated to deteriorate without the silver.

Zor

Edited to correct "esimated" to "estimated".
End

flyingagin

Ken

photodon99

My Feedback: (18)

Has anyone used nylon drape material to cover airplane wings? I have back in the u/c days when I could't afford to buy silk. It worked fine, applied damp, doped perimiter of wing, strech material and let dry. Give second coat of dope to make sure its glued down, and let it dry. Since nylon material has a wide weave, but very strong, doping the surface of wing, dope would go thru easily, therefor baby powder was added to dope and mixed well, then applied several coats. Then fine sanded, then color dope applied. This would tigten up and last a many years, and almost puncture proof.

Photodon

Big Red 1

I've had the very best luck with Sig Koverall. The only problem with it are the creases that the manufacturer folds into the product. I've discussed this matter with Sig but they can't or won't sell in in a roll instead of folded.

I have some relic airplanes that I covered with silk and silron forty plus years ago and the material has continued to shrink into shreds.

Koverall is still the best choice for me. I can't use the iron on stuff that looks like a plastic toy!

Zor

Big Red 1 ,

I understand what you are mentioning concerning Sig Koverall having folds which are objectionable.
The only way I can figure out would be to iron it before use.
My experience with this ironng is that I had to use a tea towel soaked with water and wringed out to actually steam the folds.

I am curious what this Sig Koverall is made of.
If anyone knows I would appreciate some posting.

I do not know what is "silron". The word is not in my Encyclopedic Dictionary (Webster) and I cannot figure out what it would be if "silron is a typo".

You wrote "the material has continued to shrink into shreds." ... It makes me wonder what this material really is (was). I have here also some relic airplanes that were built in the late 1950s and early 1960s on which the covering is still strong and tight. I can tap in open areas quite hard with my finger and it sounds like tapping a drum. So you might understand my curiosity.

I am one that fully agree with your last sentence.

Incidentally . . . The main model I was using for home made radio control experimentation in the early 1960s and which is still hanging in my basement was covered with old silk stockings from my mother and Berry Brothers aircraft dope. It still looks like it did in those days (1960s) and the covering is still in very good shape (that is 50 years).

Best regards to you from Zor

YellowBlueBird

I last used silk in 1969.

The answer to how many coats of nitrate should be used is just a matter of opinion, this is my method. Kiss an open bay area, if you can draw air through the fabric continue with the nitrate. As for sanding the statement should be "do not sand through the nitrate". It seems reasonable that the first cracks will appear where the silk is scratched.

There is a wing in my shop attic that was build about 1954. If this site ever allows images again I will post some close ups of the crazing and other events that occur during storage in an attic that hits 140F during the summer for over 60 years. The wing is in surprisingly good shape. Could any of our shrink wrap coverings last that long?

Jerry

goirish

The silk is much easier to put on wet. When I was doing the wing I would set the fabric on the wing dry. Wet the root end and then start smoothing and stretching as I would wet the fabric towards the tip. Small steps at a time and was really pleased with the way it came out.

goirish

I wish there was some way to remove the first 2 pieces that I put on the stab bottom. I put it on dry and then put the nitrate on. That was when I had the nitrate mixed 1:1. It sagged and did not come out. Looks like heck. The rest of the covering was put on wet (with the nitrate not thinned) and it looks good. I guess you call it the learning process.

flyingagin

EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

Zor is instructing you to remove the creases in your Sig Koverall by ironing it. I hope you know better. The description of Koverall from the Sig website (http://www.sigmfg.com/IndexText/SIGKV001.html

"A light weight polyester based fabric that shrinks tight with heat. It has hight strength and is easy to apply. It accepts all common model paints like dope, enamel or epoxy and weighs 1.25oz per sq yd."

In other words, zor, who admits that he has absolutely NOEXPERIENCE with covering model aircraft with either silk and dope or Koverall, or any other cloth other than synthetic dress lining (he shows no proof of otherwise) is telling you to pre-shrink a material that is meant to be shrunk AFTER it is applied to the model. BAD ADVICE, assumption, speculation.

What you may want to try is laying the material out on a flat surface and letting it relax on it's own. I would try draping it over say, an ironing board and attaching small spring clamps or clothes pins to gently give it a little weight to coax it along. Give it a day or two. Then I would store it rolled. Office supply store stocks mailing tubes that will suffice to roll the cloth onto.

It simply does not make any sense to apply heat to it.

sensei

+1,

What is the point of pre heating the covering, to remove a few wrinkles before covering, I have covered dozens of airframes with several different types of cloth covering and never once pre heated and shrank the covering prior to application...

Bob

Zor

Folks,

quote
What is the point of pre heating the covering, to remove a few wrinkles before covering,
unquote

It is not a few wrinkles . . . it is sharp folds that have been created by a long period of time.
I wrote in post #156 what I figured has to be done to remove these sharp folds.
I did not advise anyone to do that with Sig Koverall.
In fact I asked what Sig Koverall is made of.

I always iron the fabric before using it for covering if necessaryto remove any sharp bends (crease). If that actually shrink the fabric then that is fine.
I do not use heat after cementing the fabric in place. The dope does the tensioning just fine by itself.

If Sig Koverall is a product with heat activated glue already applied to it then it is logical to apply heat to bind it to the structure of the model and then iron it to try to remove the crease(s)l. Personally I prefer at least 50%transparency (space between fabric threads) of the fabric for the dope to cement each thread to the base structure.

My figuration in my post #156 is in reference to raw fabric like cotton, polyester, silk without any other substances on them. I think it was quite evident for all readers that are not looking to distort the meaning.

Over time I have posted many pictures of my models illustrating good results.

The doping procedure has been posted many times by various individuals and is so simple.

Zor

EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

From post #156:

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Zor
I understand what you are mentioning concerning Sig Koverall having folds which are objectionable.
The only way I can figure out would be to iron it before use.

From post #163:

Quote:

ORIGINAL: Zor
It is not a few wrinkles . . . it is sharp folds that have been created by a long period of time.
I wrote in post #156 what I figured has to be done to remove these sharp folds.
I did not advise anyone to do that with Sig Koverall.
In fact I asked what Sig Koverall is made of.

Do you want to try yet another explaination? Maybe there's yet another zor in your head that can come up with something better. Do you really think we're all that stupid and you're really that smart? Incredible.

Sig Koverall does not have glue on it. A quick visit to their website would have shown you that - that's how I know it.

Stop giving advice on things you have no knowledge of, have no experience with, or have practiced with any degree of acceptable result. To continue to do so is a disservice and is the epitome of disrespect to others. But that really doesn't matter, now does it? Stop presenting yourself as someone you are not. I have never witnessed an individual thrash-about with such vigor and desperation to make themselves relevant. Good grief, this is a hobby forum. Sit back and learn something. I do NOT want to see what you do when things are a matter of life.

AwwNaww

Concerning "Silron" I do recall this from the '60s. I do not know what it actually was (blend of silk and nylon??) but it was somewhat cheaper, shrunk somewhat less and developed "runs" that were not a lot of fun to deal with. Youre dealing with an old man's memory here but that is how I recall "silron".

sensei

I think I will stick with my own way of covering with fabric. This was covered 14 years ago and it still looks the same today.

Bob

EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

I for one would appreciate learning more about silk and dope -  from an experienced modeler.

goirish

I'll say one thing, this has been an experience. I am getting better as I go along. Wife right there helping and as I said she is good at covering with Ultracote. To me it is a must that you wet the silk as you are applying it to the wood. You can work all of the bubbles and wrinkles out before you apply the nitrate. The very first piece I did, bottom of the stab was put on dry and it came out like crap. I would be ashamed to put my name on it, so I put my wife's[8D] Boy am I glad she is not reading the post.[X(]

flyingagin

sensei

To be real honest, once I used Stits system on the non certified light weight covering around 30 years ago I switched from silk and dope and never went looked back, I have used it on full scale down to the smaller stuff with great success. This is a Hyde Double Vision that I stripped lightened and covered the fuse in Stits and the rest in Monokote.

Bob

EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

Trust me, I'm not looking for The Covering of The Promised Land!I'm just looking to learn how to cover with silk and dope because I have a few vintage kits/plans that warrant the covering of their era. I think it would be fun.

Since getting back in the hobby in '08, I've covered one model with Solartex and another with fiberglass/epoxy. Variety is great.

Very impressive models you posted. Thanks for sharing.

goirish

take a look at post # 149. I think this is the link. It helped me out a great deal
http://www.airfieldmodels.com/inform...wing/index.htm

Zor

Greetings,

I am posting the text of post #140 where I was trying to post pictures and it was not ;possible at that moment.

Apparenty it now works again so I am trying to post the two pictures.

- - - - - - -

goirish,

Yes I put the fabric on dry.

I will try to post a couple of pictures illustrating what I think you were concerned with.

Zor

P.S.: At this moment I get "500 Internal Server Error".
Unable to upload pictures.
I will try again later

I tried again at 15:55 EST _ _ _ still unable to upload.
I tried again at 20:42 EST today 02 March 2013 _ _ _ still unable to upload.
I tried again at 11:47 EST on the 03 March 2013 _ _ _ still unable to upload.
End

< Message edited by Zor 3/3/2013 11:48 AM >

(in reply to goirish)
Post #: 140

________

The picture on the left is what you were concerned about.
The picture on the right is what happens after a couple of hours.
These were the first coats of dope. This effect reduces for the second coat and eventually disappear.

Zor

Edit ___added three pictures.
The LCL picture taken 04/09/2009 is of a wing made in the late 1950s. Note the aileron hinge.

EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

Thanks. I read all the parts beginning to end. Great information, and narrated in a clear and understandable style. However, there was no mention of the weight of the silk. I'll keep searching for information on that.

You should post some pics of your progress.

flyingagin