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Fuel for old engines

Old 05-02-2013, 03:41 PM
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GallopingGhostler
 
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

That's rare and hard to get muffler, George. I believe that is the same muffler that will fit both of my OS Max .10 RC cross scavenge engines. Fortunately I live where mufflers are not mandatory at the RC field outside of town. On those, the exhaust baffle coupled with carburetor throttle barrel is sufficient.

I've got the later OS Max .15 RC with muffler cross scavenge engine, which is the one you mention that uses a steel cylinder insert.
Old 05-05-2013, 03:57 PM
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Joseph Fisher
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

Thursday I recived my gallon of castor oil from Sig. Friday I got a gallon of methonal. So I mixed 29 oz of castor with 71oz of methonal. This afternoon the weather is a little less stinky(no rain and about 49deg.) So I went out and started the Fox 35. It was real tempermental at first and I began to think maybe my fuel wouldn't work but I finaly got it to start and keep running. After that it was easyer to start and ran better each time. I ran 5, 3.5 oz tanks thrugh it. Now the compression is much stronger. So I think I don't need the nitro. Joe Fisher the 67 year old kid.
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Old 06-02-2013, 09:30 AM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines


ORIGINAL: Dwayne

According to the Bryon web site they use either 18% or 20% total oil content, this is pretty common and all you need to do is add 12 oz. of castor to a gallon of fuel this will bump your total oil content up to around 25% to 27% depending on what fuel you're using and you will be good to go.

This is where I get my castor. http://brodak.com/castor-oil-quart.html
Good luck
Dwayne

It doesn't work that way. When you dump more oil in the fuel you decrease the alcohol and nitro content (all other additives as well), so those have to increaseby the same amount to keep the same ratio in the mix.

JK


Old 06-02-2013, 02:50 PM
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GallopingGhostler
 
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

ORIGINAL: JKinTX
ORIGINAL: Dwayne According to the Bryon web site they use either 18% or 20% total oil content, this is pretty common and all you need to do is add 12 oz. of castor to a gallon of fuel this will bump your total oil content up to around 25% to 27% depending on what fuel you're using and you will be good to go. This is where I get my castor. http://brodak.com/castor-oil-quart.html
It doesn't work that way. When you dump more oil in the fuel you decrease the alcohol and nitro content (all other additives as well), so those have to increase by the same amount to keep the same ratio in the mix.
Dwayne is correct and JK is correct it you want to maintain the same so called consistency. It took a little while to figure out in a spreadsheet. I'm not sure though that the alcohol content is as critical, as the fuel is mixed is mixed and it just comes out that way, if you know what I mean. [:-]

Say you have 18% oil content, you add 12 ounces of oil to your fuel. What this will do is increase the oil content to 25%, but it will slightly dilute the other components. Say fuel is 15% nitro content. After adding the 12 ounce oil, now you have one gallon and 12 ounces of fuel; 15% nitro drops to 13.7%, alcohol drops from 67% to 61.3%.

If you started with 18% oil and 5% nitro, after adding you now have 25% oil, 4.7% nitro, alcohol of 77% drops to 70.4% and of course 1 gallon and 12 ounces of fuel.

If you wanted to withdraw some fuel from the 5% nitro full gallon jug and save it to another container, you would remove 10.8 ounces and put the same in oil to have the 25% oil content. Then take the other contain with 10.8 ounces original fuel, add 1.2 ounces of oil to give it 25% oil content.

Probably an easier scenario is to take an empty one gallon jug, fill it to half from the full gallon jug. Add 6 ounces oil to each. Now you can shake both bottles and be assured the oil fully mixed.
Old 06-02-2013, 04:34 PM
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downunder
 
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

Actually, adding oil to a fuel doesn't really "dilute" the methanol/nitro content. Consider the simplest possible fuel with 80% methanol and 20% oil (which just happens to be my standard fuel ) and then add oil to bring it up to 25% oil. As far as the container is concerned there seems to be less methanol but as far as the engine is concerned there's still the same amount of methanol going through the carb once the needle is opened a fraction more to get the right tune. Same thing applies when there's nitro in the blend. No matter how much oil is added the proportion of methanol/nitro always remains the same which is all the engine cares about.
Old 06-02-2013, 05:01 PM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

What you state makes sense, downunder. Whole idea is to get more oil going through the engine with the same amount of "bang" or methanol/nitro. Thus, we are assured of not having oil starvation in the critical areas. Anyway, its flying season now.
Old 06-02-2013, 05:03 PM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

Not possible sir. You can't add 10% to 100% and get 100%. Anything added to a solution changes the parameters- basic chemistry.
While it may not be noticable at our level on a practical basis, the oil addition still dilutes the mixture to a degree.

John
Old 06-02-2013, 05:10 PM
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ORIGINAL: GallopingGhostler

What you state makes sense, downunder. Whole idea is to get more oil going through the engine with the same amount of "bang" or methanol/nitro. Thus, we are assured of not having oil starvation in the critical areas. Anyway, its flying season now.

That depends on the engine, compression ratio, atmospheric conditions, etc., etc. On some it will work, on some not.
Old 06-02-2013, 05:15 PM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

+1

Ken
Old 06-03-2013, 08:16 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

ORIGINAL: JKinTX
Not possible sir. You can't add 10% to 100% and get 100%.
Which isn't actually what I said and that's why I used the simplest possible fuel (just oil and methanol) as an example. That engine runs only on the methanol part of the fuel mix regardless of oil quantity so the flow of methanol must remain constant. IOW, the engine runs on 100% methanol, the oil is along for the ride . Same applies if the fuel part of the mix is methanol/nitro.

The problem is that everyone's so used to reading contents of fuel with oil included that they forget what the content of the actual fuel is. Let's say you read the contents as 20% oil, 40% nitro and 40% methanol. Oil isn't a fuel but the rest is so what your actual fuel is in that jug is a blend of equal parts methanol/nitro or, in fact, 50% nitro and 50% methanol and the fuel part will remain as 50% nitro no matter how much oil you add.
Old 06-03-2013, 09:58 AM
  #36  
Joseph Fisher
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

The way this thread started was because of  the extreme cost of the has-mat to get the fuel. I was looking for some local sources to mix my own fuel and that came down to the need for the nitro. I didn't have a problem getting the Castor oil and I discovered that the methanol is readily  available where I live. The methanol is actually cheaper than gasoline. The big problem was nitro. I tried 30% castor and 70% methanol and it works just fine. It makes me kind of wonder what the nitro actually dose.     
Old 06-03-2013, 10:09 AM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

AFAIK, Europe has been using FAI or no nitro fuel for ages. Nitro content is reported to make needle valve settings less critical, smaller engines use it for higher RPM. If no nitro fuel works fine for you, there's no reason to change.
Old 06-03-2013, 12:42 PM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

The critical  needle valve setting I hadn't thought of before. Years ago some one told me you need nitro for idle. Back in the 60's I have a Veco .45 and a Super Tiger .23 . The .45 would not dependable idle as slow as the .23 .Some one told me I needed fuel with more nitro so I thought you needed nitro for the idle. I never touched the low speed needle on the .23. But I messed with the .45 all the time I never was happy with its idle. 
Old 06-03-2013, 06:59 PM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

I've been making my own fuel for the last 50+ years and have only ever used nitro once and that was for a racing competition. Nitro does give a bit more power and makes the needle easier to set because nitro will tolerate a very large range of mixture settings, meaning it's not as critical as straight methanol (petrol of course is far more critical). The downside is that the fuel consumption starts to go way up as you add more and more nitro, it's an air/fuel ratio thing. Nitro can also help give a slower idle but how low do you really need it? I figure if the model doesn't creep forwards (on grass) then it's low enough . If you want though you can add about 3% acetone to lower the idle speed a bit.

Edit to add: Oops, just remembered this is the CL forum, who cares about idle?
Old 06-03-2013, 08:05 PM
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ORIGINAL: downunder Oops, just remembered this is the CL forum, who cares about idle?
The carrier fliers.
Old 06-04-2013, 03:02 PM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

The oil is hardly "along for the ride"; it is what provides the cooling and keeps the rotating parts doing that. If increased too much though in the wrong ratio, it will also foul out your plugs in a royal second as anyone who has run 2-stroke motorcycles or outboard motors well knows.

JK
Old 06-04-2013, 03:04 PM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines


ORIGINAL: GallopingGhostler

AFAIK, Europe has been using FAI or no nitro fuel for ages. Nitro content is reported to make needle valve settings less critical, smaller engines use it for higher RPM. If no nitro fuel works fine for you, there's no reason to change.
Old 06-04-2013, 03:07 PM
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ORIGINAL: GallopingGhostler

AFAIK, Europe has been using FAI or no nitro fuel for ages. Nitro content is reported to make needle valve settings less critical, smaller engines use it for higher RPM. If no nitro fuel works fine for you, there's no reason to change.
They ran a lot of diesels too- as I still do. The nitro is a help in the dinky-toy stuff as it will provide more power and an easier to set needle. I have run some of my OK Cub .049's on a straight FAImix tho,and they did just fine.

John
Old 06-04-2013, 03:13 PM
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That is the motor, not the fuel. They are ALL individuals and no two are exactly alike in their habits. The Mills diesels as a general rule are the closest I have ever seen to being a family group. You put it in a plane or on a stand, put on a prop, add fuel, flip and off you go. Every single one I have tried is like that. The ED's are a close second but more high strung.

John
Old 06-04-2013, 03:16 PM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines


ORIGINAL: GallopingGhostler

AFAIK, Europe has been using FAI or no nitro fuel for ages. Nitro content is reported to make needle valve settings less critical, smaller engines use it for higher RPM. If no nitro fuel works fine for you, there's no reason to change.

That is because the only two factories that make nitro are in the USA and one of those blew up a few years ago.
Old 06-04-2013, 03:23 PM
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ORIGINAL: downunder

ORIGINAL: JKinTX
Not possible sir. You can't add 10% to 100% and get 100%.
Which isn't actually what I said and that's why I used the simplest possible fuel (just oil and methanol) as an example. That engine runs only on the methanol part of the fuel mix regardless of oil quantity so the flow of methanol must remain constant. IOW, the engine runs on 100% methanol, the oil is along for the ride . Same applies if the fuel part of the mix is methanol/nitro.

The problem is that everyone's so used to reading contents of fuel with oil included that they forget what the content of the actual fuel is. Let's say you read the contents as 20% oil, 40% nitro and 40% methanol. Oil isn't a fuel but the rest is so what your actual fuel is in that jug is a blend of equal parts methanol/nitro or, in fact, 50% nitro and 50% methanol and the fuel part will remain as 50% nitro no matter how much oil you add.
What the heck are you talking about? The oil is a component of the total fuel mix and no it won't stay the same- the more oil you add the more the mix is diluted by that same amount you will get plug fouling and reduced RPMs- simple chemistry.

John
Old 06-06-2013, 10:28 PM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

No, he's right, the engine will demand the same amount of METHANOL, irrespective of oil content. If you increase the oil content you'll need to increase the NV setting so that the amount of methanol is the same, as you now have to haul more oil along with it.

Think about it.

Also, there was a test in the 70's on 250cc motorbike motors that found that increasing the oil content acutally increased RPM, not decreased it.
Old 06-07-2013, 03:19 PM
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ORIGINAL: Rendegade

No, he's right, the engine will demand the same amount of METHANOL, irrespective of oil content. If you increase the oil content you'll need to increase the NV setting so that the amount of methanol is the same, as you now have to haul more oil along with it.

Think about it.

Also, there was a test in the 70's on 250cc motorbike motors that found that increasing the oil content acutally increased RPM, not decreased it.

I have. You can't simply open the nv any more than you can the throttle on a bike or outboard and have the same effect it won't happen. I used to have Bultaco and Greeves and if I tried what you suggest, I'd get some nice black sooty plugs in return.

BTW, here is one for you to "think about". Dump a pint of oil into a gallon of fuel and then tell me how many turns you had to open the needle up to get that magic METHANOL to work. What 60 or so?


The Bul was a 250 Alpina and the Greeves a 380 QUB Griffon, BTW.
Old 06-08-2013, 04:03 AM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

ORIGINAL: GallopingGhostler

ORIGINAL: downunder Oops, just remembered this is the CL forum, who cares about idle?
The carrier fliers.
Here in the "STATES" everyone just might be caring. New AMA CL competition rules are allowing 2.4 RC for everything CL except elevator.

Changes in CL will be forthcoming, for sure. May take a couple years but they will happen. I personally don't go with that change, but then I have
not been active in CL competition for years. Not my call! [8D]
Old 06-10-2013, 12:26 PM
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Default RE: Fuel for old engines

ORIGINAL: JKinTX


ORIGINAL: Dwayne

According to the Bryon web site they use either 18% or 20% total oil content, this is pretty common and all you need to do is add 12 oz. of castor to a gallon of fuel this will bump your total oil content up to around 25% to 27% depending on what fuel you're using and you will be good to go.

This is where I get my castor. http://brodak.com/castor-oil-quart.html
Good luck
Dwayne

It doesn't work that way. When you dump more oil in the fuel you decrease the alcohol and nitro content (all other additives as well), so those have to increase by the same amount to keep the same ratio in the mix.

JK


Your right of course but you are also being a bit to picky my friend, these are just model airplane engines adding 12 oz of castor jug of fuel will not change or diminish anything to the point of hurting your engine or it's performance. I've been doing it for years, here's the link to the program I use scroll down and click on add oil only.

http://www.nitrorc.com/default2.asp?...orc.com/fuelws

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