pmerritt

My Feedback: (118)

Amazing to get all the opinions from people assuming this, guessing that, supposing the other when they weren't there.

Spotters can spot.  There isn't enough time between their view and a voice command to the pilot for him to react and even react in the saving direction to prevent all these accidents.  We haven't gotten the view from the other pilot so all we have is the wah wah opinon of someone that wasn't even flying or spotting. 

If you can afford to spend $3,000.00 on an unmanned aircraft that you put up in the air with countless others then you need to assume the risk of that action. 
Take that plane to your club and ask members if they will allow you a solo maiden or solo flight for 6 minutes.  I KNOW all clubs will respect that request.

Again, this wasn't even the posting persons aircraft.  Geeze.  Get a life boy!  You aren't out a dime.  And when you want to sent me threatening pm's because of my opinions, we do have a problem boy.

gjmjoe017

My Feedback: (1)

Again,your post shows who the boy is.....

Tampaflyer

My Feedback: (42)

so all his spotter had to do was ask the other pilot to " back off".. the pilot could had called" landing" and the other plane should have backed off.

so why do  i think this guy thought it was "cool' when the other plane slid up to him , but said nothing. 

the spotter is at fault....

if the pilot told the spotter he was un comfortable.. the SPOTTER should have relayed that.

SPOTTER.. coughf up the $3000...

AND WHY WOULD YOU GO TO JOE NALL  if your uncomfortable flying with other people..REALLY...COME ON..

HoundDog

My Feedback: (49)

It's not the responsibility of the spotter to watch your plane it his/her responsibility to tell the pilot when a runway is in use or others are taking off or landing. What other aircraft are doing in the air. A spotter is not responsible for his pilots plane, the pilot in command is, Period.

You can believe it or not but a person going against the pattern is less likely to have a mid air because he is only near other aircraft for a fraction of a second, where when traveling the same way he is in constant danger of colliding because of the amount of time spent near each other. R/C combat proves my point.  Did you ever intentionally try to Mid-Air 2 Planes almost impossible in head on fashion.

But on the other hand 'Head On Mid-Airs' are much more spectacular.

tejician1

My Feedback: (2)

daleflysRC nailed the midair situation at the Joe Nall, squarely on the head...When wanting to fly formation with another plane(s) in the pattern you should indicate and prearrange your wishes before hand, usually in the pits or before take off...Then, after joining up it is understood you do not perform aerobatics or jink around like a clown, to do so invites disaster...Formation flying demands tremendous amounts of of self discipline from both pilots and a constant flow of communication during the flight.... I have flown at Bomber Field many times and other large venues and have flown formation only with other pilots that I knew and totally aware of their piloting skills. It is an unspoken agreement and completely understood that if and when a mid air happens, no one is to blame...but stupidity does and always creep in when someone that is new or unfamiliar with formation flying tries to butt in and show off their warbird piloting skills....I've seen it happen many times. The mid air at the Joe Nall is the fault of the Team Futaba pilot, not the company's, there exists a strong possibility that both pilots did not communicate a request to fly formation and some of the blame rests with the Thunderbolt pilot for not diving or turning away from the intruding pilot who wished to show off....Education is expensive and hopefully both pilots learned something from the incident...

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Oh...trust me, this one was spectacular.

I really hope SKS caught it on video, it will save a lot of speculation from people that were not there.

vazquezr

My Feedback: (23)

Sounds to me as though there were a lot of witnesses and several testimonies. Seems to me that a claim for reimbursement should be filed with AMA.

retransit

My Feedback: (18)

I hope so. I hate it when I miss a good one!

Just for the record, a number of years ago I was flying formation with a friend of mine and the spotter said we should get closer. My buddy chewed my wing off and he lost the forward 25% of his fuse. Luckily someone from the sponsoring club caught the action with a camera and those are my favorite in-flight shots. Great stuff!

Bob

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

Midairs happen when two pilots with poor/no situational awareness meet, period.

Tampaflyer

My Feedback: (42)

i figured everyones else's at fault but the pilot of the plane in this thread, why not blame the spotter too..

the only way the pilot is going to be paid is if the other pilot feels like it.


and he lost a plane too.

but love the thread.. and glad i don't fly with some of these pilots

i love flying with pilots i can trust, and can fly a pattern, and fly predictably... allows pictures like this.. from david hart @ topgun 2013

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

You miss the, "pay to play" point completely! Spending $3,000.00 and countless hours of blood, sweat and tears to one, may be the equivalent of another spending $199.00 on a Tower Trainer ARF. It's all relative to one's disposable income.

What I said was, "$3,000.00 is hardly a princely sum for a large-scale warbird." That is a FACT, not a statement of "only big pockets should be involved"

Ironically, it sounded to me like the OP was saying that because he had such a fancy, expensive warbird, that someone should PAY!!! Like he was more entitled to the airspace than anyone else!

We all learn early on that there are no guarantees that we will get our planes back in one piece once they leave terra firma due to a multitude of reasons (mechanical failure, dumb-thumbs, mid-air, etc.). We also learn that we may be sharing airspace with other individuals that may be more or less experienced than ourselves, or may or may not share the same level of respect for the others that are also flying. Since we all know before we fly that there are no written rules for liability in a mid-air and that all accidents are arbitrarily open for both parties' perspective on the incident, that each of us bear ALL the risk of incident when we CHOOSE to fly one of our models.

Remember folks, we cannot compare flying toy model planes (non-essential, completely for recreation), to driving down a busy street (pretty much essential these days!). That is why we have traffic laws and people who enforce them and MANDATORY insurance for doing such.

With that being said, IF I THOUGHT I HAD DONE SOMETHING TO DESTROY ANOTHER PILOTS' PLANE, I WOULD STEP UP AND PAY HIM. I WOULD HOPE THAT ALL THE OTHER PILOTS WOULD DO THE SAME BUT, SADLY, WE ALL KNOW IT AIN'T SO! I WOULD ALSO RATHER LOSE A $3,000.00 AIRPLANE TO SOME IRRESPONSIBLE MORON THAN TO GET LAWYERS AND LEGISLATION INVOLVED WHERE IT SHOULD BE A SIMPLE MATTER OF MORALS AND ETHICS.

I hope that clearly explains what I meant when I said, "you gotta pay to play." It is FACT, not just my attitude.

Too many people out there who want someone else to pay their way!

In summary:

If you can't afford to lose it (for any reason whatsoever) without coming on to an internet forum and whining about it, DON"T PUT IT IN THE AIR!

Regards,

Astro

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Sounds like the judge and jury has spoken!

That is YOUR opinion. For everyone that shares your opinion, there is one that does not. For that reason alone, it makes it LUDICROUS to even debate these issues!

That is why we all need to pull up our big-boy panties and just realize that our toys (no matter how expensive or inexpensive) are just expendable means for us to have fun and that they may or may not survive the next flight for whatever the reason! if we are not willing to look at it like that, we should probably stay home and pull the taffy.

Regards,

astro

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Attitudes like this is why our COUNTRY is dying! [:@]

Regards,

Astro

on_your_six

My Feedback: (11)

So you had to pull both my comments and disagree with both... and you were wrong twice. Well, I just don't happen to believe that anything goes while in the air. If I had SKS video to back my claim... I might just take a lick in court... I could probably find a judge to see it my way. There is a thing called responsibility, as in responsibility for your actions.

chris923

My Feedback: (53)

Astro, I think that is a bit extreme!If the P-47 was flying the pattern and the Corsair fly's formation with the P-47 that's fine. Then in the same formation pattern the Corsairdoes a roll ( so fast that a spotter can't react) and takes out the P-47 with his roll, How is that the fault of the P-47 Pilot!If in deed this is the correct scenario, the Corsair was at fault, if his is a man (pilot) of integrity, he will own up and make good on the damages.There is no way the P-47 could know that the corsair pilot would roll during formation fly ( a roll during formation flying is a bone head move).This is my opinion, just a Astro, on your six, tamapaflyer ect have there's. No need to worry about the country dying over everyone have there own opinion.

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Well......if YOU say so.......

I could probably find a judge that wouldn't allow a dying ten-year-old to take advantage of an available lung transplant because they weren't twelve, too! []

You know as well as I do that there are no written rules for those of us flying in the same airspace. That leaves everything that happens up to interpretation, so you are bound to have multiple differing opinions on who was at fault. Just because you see it your way does still not make it so. Just because you could find "a judge" to see it your way, doesn't make it so.

I do agree with you on ONE point though!

I do believe in taking responsibility for one's own actions. As I stated before, If I had been the Corsair pilot and IF I felt I was to blame, I would step up and compensate the other pilot. What I am trying to say, is that under these specific circumstances, where there is no clear answer as to who is at fault (only opinions, and mostly from people who did not witness the mid-air), and where the Corsair pilot (for whatever reason) didn't step up and accept responsibility, the OP needs to accept that, write off his loss and move on. Tough Luck!

I don't know about everyone else on here, but I really think our courts have more important things to rule on!

Regards,

Astro

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Old 'out of step again' here.

Once again pilots have proved physics theory that only ONE object can occupy the space at a time.

All the folderol over who is at 'fault' and who should pay or cry is just that, folderol - at best.

First off, accidents happen in this hobby. Remember when we are trying to recruit new members into our clubs we tell them to start with an inexpensive trainer so that "WHEN" they crash they can move on and we tell them there is no "if" about crashing.

Secondly, unless someone can prove the hitter had malice of forethought and planned the action out 'we' are just wasting lots of band width beating up vendors and modelers alike with little or no regard to the REAL ISSUE at hand. This subject has been discussed by AMA folks for a while now due to the seriousness of the problem, it is becoming more and more important as our events attract outside observers, and no easy solution has presented itself.

The issue has to do with the SPOTTERS, what they are supposed to watch for, what they are supposed to warn for, and what we are supposed to do with that information.

As already discussed, the spotter should be watching other aircraft in the environment rather than the model of the pilot they are spotting for. That is one major hurdle we as a community have NOT gotten past yet because too many of us enjoy the attention of another pilot. This problem is made more serious by 'puppy dog' spotter we all know that stands there in awe of you and your aircraft and never even notices another plane in the sky except for rude remarks like 'he should get out of your way'

Someone noted that sometimes the spotters warning comes way too late to correct, which is a function of what the spotter is watching. Part of the problem is in training the spotter to recognize the impending conflict and figure out a good way to communicate it and suggest a solution that all pilots need. I tend to favor those kinds of spotters because they keep me appraised of where MY conflicts are - in front, above, below, or behind and overtaking. But that is MY choice, you may prefer different information.

I just touched on some of the cornerstones of effective spotting that does help to prevent mid air collisions. What the spotter should be watching for (conflicts all around ME), how they communicate it to me (he/she is same altitude direction or oncoming or whatever), and what should be done with the information. If same (apparent) altitude, I should climb or descend etc based on timely effective spotting.

This is a major issue we all need to address rather than beat up some poor vendor's representative for not having an effective spotter on payroll. This is only made worse by the numbers of other pilots that do not pay for spotter services and makes some of us look bad when discussing "fault".

/end rant

YMMV

stinson sr-9f

Just A bad day sounds like the other pilot lost his to .Things like that will happen Why is that Futabas fault ? sorry about the loss but not really A realistic view.

Rotten40851

My Feedback: (2)

Why does everyone assume the Corsair Pilot is at fault? Barracuda Hockey said "He was there" and the Corsair pilot stated he was just flying along and "BAM" sounds unintentional to me. It's not that uncommon for a servo to crap out, especially with a big heavy warbird. For sure Futaba is not going to pony up a dime, and sureI would feel remorse if I was the pilot of the corsair, but let's not forget he lost his plane as well.As I stated in an earlier post. " The spotter should be SPOTTING!!!" When the Corsair came up on the Thunderbolt, a spotters warning andup or down elevator is all that was needed. in my opinion, if anyoneIS at fault it was the Thunderbolt's spotter!! I am Johnny Rotten!!!

ssautter

The spotters aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing....
Who was spotting for the "Team" Futaba pilot?

capt1597

if my plane rolled and hit another because of dumb thumbs i would pay for the other plane! if my plane rolled and hit another because of equipment failing i would pay for the other plane!
i feel that i am responsible for my actions that do harm. but that's just me. i know lots of people that think they are above responsibility especially when it means that they have to take cash out of their pocket. life is choices. i prefer my choices. but that's just me.

me, i would never ask another that had flown into my plane and hurt it to pay. i would expect them to offer but if they did not i would not ask or hound them to pay but i would not have much regard for them in the future.

lots and lots and lots of people can come up with endless excuses as to why they should not have to pay out their cash to cover their actions. worlds full of them and they will endlessly jabber their justification, who cares. but that's just me

"it's the spotters fault" now this is a new low!

just my two cents, but thats just me!

happy flying, capt

acerc

Why is it if one's moral aptitude is if they did cause an accident, which by the way is not an accident, why is there morals so high as to make restitution. But yet turn around and say if another pilot was to hit him he would not ask or expect restitution. Seems to me morals are morals, if you have them you expect the same as you would apply. So being that I just said that I think a lot of people say on here what they would do but in reality they would not. I have seen many a accident at events, big name events, and I have never seen or heard of anyone ever offer to pay up for anothers garbage bag. Usually they are to busy with there own garbage bag, and too busy wondering what went wrong. Just like the ones in the picture Tampa flyer post above, except last year the one behind flew thru the yellow bipe.  Which he, the bipe's pilot, still managed to land. And through out the whole ordeal he never seeked restitution. The bottom line is waivers are signed, everyone has the same at stake, and the last is "Shi-it Happens".

on_your_six

My Feedback: (11)

I have done more than talk a good game, I have paid in the past for damages that I caused. Capt1597 you and your attitude are welcome to fly with me anytime.

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

I did not see this near miss until I got the pic weeks later. Neither did my spotter or the other one.

If we had hit...Oh well...that's the way it goes.

Beave

astrohog

My Feedback: (1)

Because you can't legislate morals. Just because one guys' morals dictate that he be responsible to pay for damages HE causes, it doesn't mean that he can expect the same in return......no matter how much he whines or posts on this fine forum!

I am in COMPLETE agreement with Captain 1597, and would respond exactly how he portrayed in his post. It is called being grounded in reality! It is called having equal respect for all, until proven unworthy of such respect. You see, it is those things that make (made) our Country different than all the others, unfortunately, we are becoming an "entitled" and litigious society where we are quick to point our fingers and blame someone else.

Regards,

Astro