SanJoseDale

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For the 2015 season, we will be changing all AMA sequences. In preparation for this, we have put together a very short survey, for any and all AMA pattern pilots. Feel free to pass this along to others you know who are not on this forum. I am encouraging everyone to use the on line survey, found here:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NSRCASequence

This will also be in printed form in the next K Factor for those who don’t use email/internet and wish to mail in. The purpose is simply to find out how everyone feels about the level of difficulty of their current sequence. I would encourage anyone not familiar with the Sequence Development Guide, to look at this first, to understand the guidelines established for each class. This guide can be found on the NSRCA website here:

http://www.nsrca.us/index.php/sequencedevelopmentguide

Hope you all can take just a moment to take this survey.

Dale Olstinske

D7

NSRCA Sequence Committee Chairman

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Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

It was fun to read the intent of the schedule design first. I personally think the schedules I've flown (Sportsman and Intermediate) and also looked at (Advanced) seem to really meet the intent.

A bit of a related story: I just flew in an IMAC contest this weekend. I was going to fly Basic (entry level) and practiced about 2-3 flights worth the weekend prior. No other Basic pilots flew so I jumped to Sportsman.

My first thought is that the IMAC sequences are a lot more difficult. Basic includes a 2-turn spin. Sportsman includes a snap, point rolls, rolling entries and exits, and a spin. Having no practice at the Sportsman sequence I got lots and lots of zeros; I had my hands full (was like flying an unknown).

After a day to reflect, I realized that the F3A schedules did exactly what they are trying to do. In Sportsman I learned to use a little rudder, I practiced staying in the box and making center manouvres on center. In Intermediate, I find I am making wind corrections in every manouvre, in both straight lines and loops. The Advanced schedule has a lot of the same components as IMAC Sportsman - point rolls, rolling entries and exits, a snap, a spin. Note that the F3A Advanced has more manouvres that IMAC Sportsman.

It seems like IMAC has a more aggressive approach, but F3A builds a really strong foundation and gives a little more time to learn and reinforce precision aerobatics skills.

My final thought: I think that the progression (F3A Pattern) from Sportsman to Advanced is perfect. It does exactly what it is supposed to do (I know I've commented on this before in appreciation) and is really teaching me some amazing skills. But what happens after Advanced? It seems that there is only one more level to advance for most people, then FAI (I see FAI as the goal, not Masters, but that's me). I am wondering what we could do to implement a class between Advanced and Masters (the name Masters implies that it should be at the top, so maybe adjust skill accordingly). I know a lot of the D1 contests I was at last year were heavily stacked with Masters pilots. Not as much in D4, but I have a feeling people hesitate to jump from Advanced to Masters because it's the 'last stop', or because it's pretty full of pilots with decades of experience.

Does another class make sense to a lot of people? I'm sure it's been discussed, maybe I should search I think one idea could be to try bridge the gap between Masters and FAI. Why aren't more people flying FAI?

SanJoseDale

Joe, good points. The idea of another class has been discussed quite a bit. it really boils down to the intent. In D7 for example, we frequently have contests where half or more of the field are Masters. One possible solution which we have tried, is to create another Masters class, Expert, since there is a big variance in skill level between the bottom and the top of the class, but the main benefit is facilitating judging. Even if the Expert class just uses the current Masters sequence, the benefit to judging is huge.

Another solution, and it's the reason I asked in the survey, is to get more Masters guys to fly FAI. The reason more Masters don't fly FAI (based on many many discussions) is the level of difficulty of the F sequence. The P sequence is not much harder than Masters, but with F's rolling circles and knife to knife snaps, it keeps the field sparse.

Dale

Silent-AV8R

One thing to keep in mind with respect to IMAC and that is that they more or less model their sequences on the full-cale IAC sequences. This sets the tone for what types of base figures they use and how tricked up they make them. Unfortunately in many respects the upper classes of IMAC have become snap-fests. Their Unlimited sequence has 10 figures with a total of 11 snaps of various types. Only 2 figures do not have snaps on them. Most have multiple snaps.

Pattern is not handicapped by having a non-modeling basis for their sequences and can use a more logical progression of figures and complexity.

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

Personally, I think bringing back Expert is a great idea. A lot of folks contend that they don't have the turnout at a contest to support the additional class and say this will not take care of the Masters class over-crowding. I beg to differ on this.

SanJoseDale

grcourtney

My Feedback: (1)

when there is only 15 or so people at a given contest expert doesn't make since .


g

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

I agree it might not make sense to fly all classes with only 15 people around - that's up to the CD. I think if there were an Expert class and only 15 people showed, you could have the Expert guys fly Masters and they would not be held to flying in that class for the rest of the year so long as the Expert class was not officially held.

jgg215

Adding a class that may or may not be flown is a bad idea. CDs are going to publicize their contests months ahead of time to fly all classes in order to maximize entries. It is not until the morning of the contest that the CD will discover that his expected entries have somewhat evaporated. If it then turns to be more efficient for the CDand allows simpler judging assignments, the CDmay drop the Expert( or any other class) and force flyers into sequences they may not be ready for. On the other hand, he may elect to fly all classes, one or more of which will have single entries. THis does happen now and more often than it should. Why make it worse.
It is much easier to adopt the split-a-class solution. No new schedules, nobody forced to fly over their head if they want to compete, easy to manage. Where's the downside? That those lobbying for a sixth class would be out of luck?
Since we probably will have an optional pre-turnaround schedule available as well, that could lead to a contest with seven classes and 15 contestants. I might turn in my CD badge at that point...
And don't forget the Nats. Logistically I don't see where or when a fifth class would fly. Getting extra days from Nats management doesn't seem to be an option unless we expand our turnout greatly. I expect the class would draw from both masters and advanced without adding much to the total entry.

On the other hand, if it happens, sign me up.
John

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

At 400 something odd members how many classes do we need though?

I feel (and these are my feelings) that sportsman could go old school. Non turn around. May get more classic guys and also new people interested as they can exit after each maneuver. Now the tough one, which I usually try not to talk about on the internet usually.. Masters. I feel too many move to masters when they aren't ready, so now they want expert. Make masters more difficult, add rollers, upline/downline snaps. Those in advanced will prepare more to move to masters, keeping them in Advanced, and those in Masters will be better pilots preparing them much easier for the move to FAI. Which they may then do because they aren't bothered by the rollers in FAI.

Chris

MTK

Forget rolling circles for any class not just Masters. Rollers gobble up so muchreal estatethat they need their own maneuver-specific rules to be governed properly. They require built-in contradictions.......I could care less about the fact that IMAC does these.......

I much prefer and am in favor of rolling loops and rolling segments within loops and corner maneuvers. Bring the rolling element into the vertical plane. But there's no denying the fact that they areless complicated to do rightthan rollers....you only havethe leftto right and right to left to worry about and roll direction matters less. BUT they are supposed to be right in front of you. If you can see it better you are likely to guess less both as a judge or pilot.

A dumbed down Masters class (Expert if you will) might have some appeal. I do wonder about the ego factor and whether many current dyed in the wool Masters would go down to Expert. I am concerned about the fact that Advanced is not being used enough already judging from contest participation. This seems to be a country wide issue and not regional

The positives of an extra class like Expert were covered by Scott, so no sense going through those again

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

To me, a roller can be in any maneuver. Any segment of a line or radius. I didn't mean a rolling circle.

Adding another class is a band aid. There are temporary advantages, sure. You might as well get rid of advanced if we add expert. It's almost extinct now let's not forget. Fix why masters is huge and advanced may be larger, and so may fai, while masters may shrink.

Just my 1/2 cent..

Chris

VerneK

It seems to me that's backwards thinking.

"Masters is the biggest class - let's "fix it" ".

If anything, it's the class that's working best and should be left alone. If you want integrated rolling maneuvers, fly FAI. The P sequence is basically a Masters schedule with integrated rolling maneuvers added in.

If local contestants shy away from FAI because they don't want the added complexity of the F schedule, then don't fly F.

"Fix" Masters and you might very well break everything because it's all interconnected in the building block approach that exists from Sportsman on up.

While I'm on the subject, Sportsman and Intermediate are fine as is and should be left alone. I was just at a contest in Columbus, Ohio where there were more Intermediate contestants than Master as well as a good Sportsman turnout, and this was at a first time contest which usually don't get big turnouts. What this tells me is that Sportsman and Intermediate are working as designed and drawing in new people. Somehow or other, the AMA Competition Regulations mandate a schedule change for Sportsman and Intermediate every four years. Not sure when or how that got in there, but it's easy enough to correct in the next rules cycle.

Verne Koester

MTK

That isn't the typical connotation for the word "rollers", but okay....

Agreed Verne, Masters doesn't need "fixing". Splitting this particular class may not be in the sport's best interest. Truth also is that Masters guys that moved down to Advanced are not necessarily winning Advanced contests. Splitting the class will not increase participation in contests. The key positive that has some appeal is an increase in the judging pool for Masters, giving the F3A guys a needed break.

On the "roller" issue, andplaying Devil's advocate,can you really call yourself a Master and be unable to do integrated rolling stuff in competition?

I had a similar conversation last night with one of the local Masters guys whois and has been dead set against intergated rolling stuff in any AMA class for as long as I've known him. Personally I'm open to the possibility but will take it either way. It doesn't matter to me one bit.

SanJoseDale

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

I don't think it's as connected as you maybe Verne. At least that is what i see. Not trying to be argumentitive. Sure, there are building blocks in place that are very, very good. but... We are not attracting many sportsman, so there is an issue there. Classic is having a lot of people attend here in D7. maybe there is something to the sequence, maybe not. I know to gain new members and grow, we need to really look at what the deal is with sportsman.

People in masters that wont move to fai, some of them seem to be so dead set against roller (or integrated roller) type maneuvers. why, because they arent prepared to fly them yet? What is the exact reason for that? I am talking about guys who have been in masters for a while. When I say fix masters i say this because there seems to be an issue where people think masters class is the problem child at contests, with having issues finding enough judges and taking up so much time at contests. At least, that's how it is here. So sure, if there is a perceived issue, maybe it needs an attempted "fix". .

How is masters class working the best if we have many that arent prepared to be there and want to now create a expert class? And maybe also/or because some in Masters don't want to move to fai because perhaps they aren't prepared to fly integrated rolling type maneuvers? We need to put more thought into what we need to do to prepare those in masters for the move to fai imo.

Once again, not trying to come off wrong. This is how I see things in my district as a masters pilot for many years. Maybe in other districts it is different. I can fully respect that and other opinions. We are many many miles apart at different contests so things are probably different.

C

burtona

My Feedback: (50)

More masters flyers would fly FAI if we stopped flying P at local contest. F Is intended for Championships and local contest are not championship events. That is why I moved to Masters so I wouldn't have to learn 2 sequences (too old to remember one sequence). I would rather fly P than Masters but traveling to a contes for only one day of flying makes no sense.
Dave

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

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With all of the IT expertise we have in our ranks, how about coming up with a National Ranking System similar to amateur tennis.  Take the National Ranking list, divide it into five equal parts and Wala . . . all classes are equally populated.  Wanna move up, get out there and beat someone.
.

VerneK

For a pilot to try, and or learn, any category of maneuver, they're going to have to practice them before they commit to the class. Integrated rollers certainly fall into that category. I've personally never attempted them because I just flat out don't like them and think they're ugly, with the possible exception of the rolling circle. I think the Cuban in the P schedule is about the ugliest maneuver FAI has come up with in a long time, but that's just me. If I liked that category of maneuver I'd have started flying FAI a long time ago because I really can't see anything in "P" that appears more difficult than Masters when you take the rollers out of the mix. Of course "F" is a different story.

I'll be the first to admit that it's entirely possible I'm not capable of integrated rollers and I'm certain that's the case with a rolling circle, but I'm pretty sure I could do the "loopy" type of rollers. Just don't like them, but I digress.

Bottom line for me is that at every level, there's something new to learn. Going from Masters to FAI currently means you have to learn rollers. If you can't, don't like, don't have the time, or whatever to learn rollers, stay in Masters. Obviously, that's a choice many have made, myself included. Based on the turnouts locally, at the Nats and wherever, I can't see the need for repairs in that class. Now if Masters doesn't live up to its name, we could change that to Old Farts, Geezers, Lazy Guys or whatever and use the Masters title for whatever is deemed more appropriate....

The other part of the equation is difficulty creep. If you start doing rollers in Masters, the next thing you'll hear is "what are we doing to prepare an Advanced pilot for it?" Make an adjustment there, and then you have to deal with preparing an Intermediate pilot for whatever you just did to Advanced. All of sudden, participation in the lower classes drops off and everyone wonders what happened. "Must be helicopters, 3D, IMAC, computers or whatever" Couldn't be anything we did....

I'm not trying to be argumentative either but my history in pattern forces me to speak up. I lived through the sudden and dramatic drop in participation in the 90's when turnaround was forced on a pattern population that mostly didn't want it. Fifty contestant contests turned into 15 contestant contests almost overnight. Sportsman (now Intermediate) participation in my area went from the largest class (10+ at every contest) to virtually nothing and it happened because the NSRCA leadership at the time decided to "fix it". Of course, at the time, the leadership blamed the economy, gas prices, and anything else they could think of. Those of us who stuck it out knew, and know better.

Verne Koester

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

Here is a little something that I think we all forget from time to time.  You don't have to move up in class anymore.  It's not required and/or mandated.  The problem is we refuse to pass something that allows the individual to choose the class he/she is best suited for.  I, by no means, am suggesting that you can't move down but it is a process.  It simply shouldn't be that way.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

I think I would like pattern less if we got rid of the turn-around. I'm sort of a 'go big, or go home' kind of guy and I might even find something else to try if we got rid of it. The only exception I can see is Sportsman - I have no problem if we wanted to remove the turn around from that class, but I personally don't think it would do any good.

pvogel

As a sportsman hoping to move to intermediate who is trying to help a few friends (who have even more limited time than I do to practice) get into pattern these are people who are exactly the right personality type for Pattern, but have limited practice time. The sportsman class as it stands now is daunting to them and they are afraid of embarrassing themselves at a contest (I keep telling them that you have to see a contest to know that you aren't going to embarrass yourself but that requires them to actually get out to a contest, which they won't do until they feel confident enough to try it...) Fundamentally, the sportsman sequence is too daunting for that first contest (after doing one or two contests in something easier, I don't doubt that they would be comfortable doing sportsman) . I took a full week off to practice daily before my first contest, with a bunch of advanced and masters guys giving me little pointers along the way, and I'd been flying regularly for a few years prior to that.

The guys I am targeting to get in to pattern have been flying sporadically for a few years and want to become better pilots and are into the concept of precision (German blood you know :-). They are still a little afraid of crashing and have trouble knowing instantly the difference between a half cuban and a half reverse cuban. They need a sequence that has a *few* turnarounds in it, but isn't 5 maneuvers in the box before you get a break. I'm thinking center + turnaround + center to out of the box for a total of 9 maneuvers other than takeoff and landing a simplification of the sportsman pattern something like this:

Takeoff:
2 consecutive inside loops
1/2 reverse cuban eight
2 point roll
Exit box (turnaround of choice)
Double immelman
immelman turn
45 degree downline
Exit box (turnaround of choice)
Vertical upline on center
Split S
Horizontal roll
Exit box
Landing


Peter+

SanJoseDale

Early survey results, out of 140 responses (including Sportsman), only one person feels thier current sequence is too hard.

Peter, I guess what you are saying is that whileSportsman isdaunting for a newbie, it isn't too hard for the intended purpose?

Dale

pvogel

I think once you are flying Sportsman with confidence (which is the audience of your survey) it's just right. But for getting NEW blood into Sportsman it's too hard something that's easy for us to forget once we're flying regularly in a given class. I had forgotten my early days until I started helping Alan and a few others get started.

Peter+

KLXMASTER14

It is my subjective observation that it is: A) Easier to get new pilots to try (Classic) Pre-Novice pattern for the first time that AMA Sportsman, and B) They seem more enthusiastic about doing the Pre-Novice again.

Trying to explain the box to a newcomer frequently leads to glassed over eyes, and they say forget it.

-Robert