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Joe Nall Incident

Old 06-10-2013, 09:12 AM
  #126  
RCKen
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

One more thing guys. Please leave the inappropriate language off of RCU. Our rules at the same now as they were in 2001 when RCU launched, we don't allow inappropriate language in our forums. And many of you know it's not appropriate because you used different characters to try and bypass our forum filters. If you have to do that then you know it's not appropriate to be posting that type of language. If I see it I'm simply going to remove it. I've always found that there are plenty of ways to get my point across without having to resort to foul or inappropriate language.

Ken
Old 06-10-2013, 09:31 AM
  #127  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

I saw the incident and it was nobody's fault. Flying a pattern only helps reduce the chance of a mid-air. It does not eliminate them. There are too many other factors such as speed, airplane size and depth perception. The Corsair was much smaller and slower. They could have tried to hit eachother several times and not succeeded. It was pure chance. Unfortunately mid-airs are a part of the hobby.
Old 06-10-2013, 09:43 AM
  #128  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

I have read this thread and a lot of opinions and views have been expressed; but this midair like so many others that have been aired out on RCU and the Internet have always left me with the impression that the Spotters are not doing their jobs correctly; I go to a lot events, mostly as a spectator, and I have seen time and time again that the spotters busy themselves with watching their Buddies Planes that they are spotting for and ignore all the other traffic, I recall one incident where a guy was flying an A-10, the spotter was enjoying watching the A-10 as well that he didn't see an aircraft coming in on a landing right for the A-10 Pilot that he was spotting for, at the very last moment to avoid his Pilot being hit by the Plane, he yanked/pulled the Pilot out of danger and the Pilot dropped the radio and the A-10 crashed; had the spotter been doing his job he would of seen that this landing aircraft was coming towards them and could have guided the Pilot back and out of danger without losing control of his aircraft; it seems that in this midair, the spotter for the Aircraft doing the aileron roll could have advised the pilot of the proximity of the other aircraft, my 2 cents worth, more like 5 cents worth!
Old 06-10-2013, 10:07 AM
  #129  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident


ORIGINAL: jwrich

It has been my experience, that 90% of these factory sponsored pilots are hot doggers. They are there to demonstrate their equipment, most of which are 3 D type flying. When they take to the air I give them the air space. Many of the events I attend, at the pilots briefing, they say ''if there are more than one airplane is in the air you must fly the pattern and keep your spacing''. Mid-air crashes are always sad. I think the pilot who did the aileron roll is at fault because he did not have the space to accomplish the maneuver.

My 2 cents
Rich
I would ask you to keep speculation to a minimum, there was no hot dogging or 3D.

Old 06-10-2013, 10:09 AM
  #130  
essyou35
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

If am flying something I dont want to lose and someone is flying all over the pattern, I will usually yell at them and resort to confronting them later if they dont stop. If someone wont stop flying otu of pattern I land immediately. Your spotter should of been yelling at the guy to get back in pattern. Its your plane and you need to protect it from people who only care about themselves. Would you rather have a crashed plane and be known as a cry baby or would you rather still have your plane and people consider you a jerk? I like the latter.

No one should pay you for your loss. Its fly at your own risk. Whether it be a mid air, a gust of wind, a bad servo, a radio glitch, or just a mistake in the end the odds are against us. But if you let it be known you wont tolerate people putting your stuff at risk they usually will stay out of your way to avoid the conflict later.

now I am not saying yelling at everyone who does a loop or split S, but the ones going all over the place with no way to control what they hit. Or blatently flying the wrong pattern.
Old 06-10-2013, 10:17 AM
  #131  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

Again, not the case here.

Two planes, different sizes, different speeds, flying the pattern on a busy flight line. Pilot B does a roll on the downwind side and hits Pilot A.

Bad luck.
Old 06-10-2013, 10:58 AM
  #132  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

ORIGINAL: gjmjoe017

A friend of mine took his beautiful Top Flite P-47 there this year.He spent two years on the build and added a lot of scale detail.$3,000 in the project.He was flying the pattern an he and his spotter noticed another plane flying along with him.Mike decided to just hold his position and continue in the pattern.About the time of that thought,the other pilot does an alieron roll right into Mikes P-47 sending it to the ground and destroyed.Mike was so upset he walked away to collect his thoughts.Someone came up and told him that the other pilot said Mike flew into him.It turns out this other pilot is a Futaba Team Pilot.Mike confronted him and he admitted that he flew into Mike.Mike let them know he expected to be reimbersed for the loss.He was told they would get back,to date nothing and no respones from his calls to them.Just doesn't seem right.And by the way,Mike has been a loyal Futaba user for years.Will be interesting to see if Futaba does the right thing.
I completely disagree with this outlook. I had a midair with my 13 foot Corsair, with a 12 foot Ki-100. So, yes I undesrtand the pain and $ (I can assure you well in excess of $3K). And, I am not sure how you can look to Futaba for reimbursement, just because the pilot is sponsored. Yes, it sucks, but it is just part of the game of RC. Unless it was intentional (hard to prove), I don't see how you can look for compensation. I did not look for any compensation for my mid-air. As was stated earlier, I could have manuevered away, but held, afraid I may take him out...could have gone either way in my case. It is just one of the bags of the hobby. I actually took the attitude that at least it was a crash for all to remember. It really is how you have to look at the hobby. See here (go to 2:20 to see the NASCAR view):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sIOr2LFd68

JQ
Old 06-10-2013, 11:04 AM
  #133  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

Spectacular mid-air ...
Old 06-10-2013, 11:06 AM
  #134  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident


ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

Spectacular mid-air ...
Nothing more fitting than a Corsair and a "meatball" plane tangling[8D].

JQ
Old 06-10-2013, 11:24 AM
  #135  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

Anyone who believes that a mid-air collision is the "fault" of another pilot has obviously never tried to fly combat! How can you blame someone for an accident when they couldn't have even done it on purpose? All mid-air collisions are acts of God...
Old 06-10-2013, 11:50 AM
  #136  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident


ORIGINAL: bigedmustafa

Anyone who believes that a mid-air collision is the "fault" of another pilot has obviously never tried to fly combat! How can you blame someone for an accident when they couldn't have even done it on purpose? All mid-air collisions are acts of God...
Not true in several instances. 1. C/L Combat 2 When AMA 704 combat first started out where if you had a mid-air and U survived U received an extra 50 points. A club I fly with in Arizona, during their Noon Show, they try to have mid-air combat with WWI Electric fomey type planes and with 3 or 4 in the air they have come close but no Cigar.
But in any reasonable world yes Mid-Airs are an act of God. That with standing just like auto accidents there can/and is the possibility of Negligence.
Old 06-10-2013, 11:50 AM
  #137  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

Wow, that was a lot of wood![X(]
Old 06-10-2013, 11:55 AM
  #138  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

What is there like A thousand planes flying at Nall and only one mishap. My hats off to them. Is anyone responsible? no! Unless it was on purpose, Not!. Sounds like the only guy complaining is you. No one wants to see a crash, but that's the name of the game. If the heats too hot , get out of the kitchen!
Old 06-10-2013, 12:23 PM
  #139  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

Guys,

I was there live and in color it was a mid-air nothing else. It can happen especially during the noon time airshow, There were "Alot" of planes during the WW II part. People tend to forget the were other incidents during the week. If I remember there were 5 planes that went down on Wednesday between 5 -6 pm. It only take 2 planes to have a midair we just need spotters to see the whole sky not just the person your spotting for.

Old 06-10-2013, 12:37 PM
  #140  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident


ORIGINAL: capt1597

if my plane rolled and hit another because of dumb thumbs i would pay for the other plane! if my plane rolled and hit another because of equipment failing i would pay for the other plane!
i feel that i am responsible for my actions that do harm. but that's just me. i know lots of people that think they are above responsibility especially when it means that they have to take cash out of their pocket. life is choices. i prefer my choices. but that's just me.

me, i would never ask another that had flown into my plane and hurt it to pay. i would expect them to offer but if they did not i would not ask or hound them to pay but i would not have much regard for them in the future.

lots and lots and lots of people can come up with endless excuses as to why they should not have to pay out their cash to cover their actions. worlds full of them and they will endlessly jabber their justification, who cares. but that's just me

"it's the spotters fault" now this is a new low!

just my two cents, but thats just me!

happy flying, capt
How dare we blame the spotters!!! We hit a NEWLOW!!!!! By the way I said "IF, IFit was anybodys fault it was the P-47's spotter"!!!!!!
Old 06-10-2013, 01:15 PM
  #141  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

If you put something up in the mix, you take the chance that this might happen. Midairs are nobodys fault. Move on.
Old 06-10-2013, 02:09 PM
  #142  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

ORIGINAL: Rotten40851


ORIGINAL: capt1597

if my plane rolled and hit another because of dumb thumbs i would pay for the other plane! if my plane rolled and hit another because of equipment failing i would pay for the other plane!
i feel that i am responsible for my actions that do harm. but that's just me. i know lots of people that think they are above responsibility especially when it means that they have to take cash out of their pocket. life is choices. i prefer my choices. but that's just me.

me, i would never ask another that had flown into my plane and hurt it to pay. i would expect them to offer but if they did not i would not ask or hound them to pay but i would not have much regard for them in the future.

lots and lots and lots of people can come up with endless excuses as to why they should not have to pay out their cash to cover their actions. worlds full of them and they will endlessly jabber their justification, who cares. but that's just me

''it's the spotters fault'' now this is a new low!

just my two cents, but thats just me!

happy flying, capt
How dare we blame the spotters!!! We hit a NEW LOW!!!!! By the way I said ''IF, IF it was anybodys fault it was the P-47's spotter''!!!!!!
i am from a maritime background. now retired. if the ship had an accident it is the captains fault. period. nobody else ever. there is nothing else. this is why the captain goes down with the ship cause their going to hang him anyway. when entering a crowed seaway a captain can not say 'it was crowed, these things happen, you got to actcept it'. now if you live in a world of differable blame, so be it. if you live in a world of ducking responsibility, so be it. i choose to walk another path. it has served me well during my life. accepting responsibility is very hard for most people from what i have observed. on ships the captain is payed the most because he carries the biggest load. what's the load he carries? oh yea, responsibility. driving ships is easy. being responsible is hard. there are many more deckhands in life then there are captains for good reason and the deckhands will constantly squawk (like seagulls) how tough there life is. life's choices my friend. i choose and enjoy the fruits of being a captain of my life. you can choose your path as well! enjoy, capt1597


Old 06-10-2013, 03:26 PM
  #143  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

Talk is cheap ... I'd doubt very seriously that many if any one having a mid-air at an event like Joe Nall  and loosening their big expensive plane, after hitting and downing another, would just out of the goodness of their heart, dig 3 grand out of their wallet.   Again to make my point "Money Talks and Bull xxxxx Walks.       xxxxx=Manure from male cows.

 I certainly hope that doesn't offend.

Old 06-10-2013, 04:49 PM
  #144  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

when i fly in a gaggle i do try to find some clear air and i sure rely on my spotter! if your close time to bug out! go low, go high or turn its not that hard to make room! but yes mid airs do happen i am sorry for your loss but get over it. when you fly with others it does happen. go build another one. as i was learning this hobby many years ago i was almost ready to give up with repairs on my planes but i realized its part of the hobby. if i cant afford it then i better start building model railroads instead.
Old 06-10-2013, 06:55 PM
  #145  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

Out of curiosity, why would the P-47 pilot Mike "just hold his position"? If I am in the air and someone gets too chummy and close, I tell my spotter to call a loop, or my spotter suggests it, and I break off my pattern by either banking out left or right, or pulling up and out depending on where the other guy is.

There was obviously a decision by the P-47 pilot to "just hold his position" and that is laid at nobody else's feet but his. Very sorry for the loss. Mid-air's are unfortunately part of the hobby and unless the other pilot was flying against the pattern or breaking flight rules outlined at the morning pilot's meetings, then there's not much here to discuss.

Again, sorry for the loss, it's a shame for both pilots.

Shaz
Old 06-10-2013, 08:49 PM
  #146  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident


ORIGINAL: sskianpour

Out of curiosity, why would the P-47 pilot Mike ''just hold his position''? If I am in the air and someone gets too chummy and close, I tell my spotter to call a loop, or my spotter suggests it, and I break off my pattern by either banking out left or right, or pulling up and out depending on where the other guy is.

There was obviously a decision by the P-47 pilot to ''just hold his position'' and that is laid at nobody else's feet but his. Very sorry for the loss. Mid-air's are unfortunately part of the hobby and unless the other pilot was flying against the pattern or breaking flight rules outlined at the morning pilot's meetings, then there's not much here to discuss.

Again, sorry for the loss, it's a shame for both pilots.

Shaz

I agree completely. He admits to recognizing the situation and not responding proactively. At that point, this midair became a collaboration. The atitude that , "I'm not changing my course, I expect you to change your course" was passive and ineffective. If you have the opportunity to avoid an accident, but choose not to, (for any reason), then don't call foul on the other guy. Both pilots need to recognise thier mistakes and learn from them.
Old 06-10-2013, 08:51 PM
  #147  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

I am from a maritime background. now retired. if the ship had an accident it is the captains fault. period. nobody else ever.

And you will also be familiar with the fault of being "dead right."

They used to call the offender the "burdened vessel". But now the responsibility and duty is with both captains in a closing situation to avoid a collision rather than stand on and be absolutely in the right and dead.


Someone gets close, seperate.

Old 06-10-2013, 09:23 PM
  #148  
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Default RE: Joe Nall Incident

I was there at Nall's for that week.
Old 06-10-2013, 10:03 PM
  #149  
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Old 06-11-2013, 04:09 AM
  #150  
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ORIGINAL: Charlie P.

I am from a maritime background. now retired. if the ship had an accident it is the captains fault. period. nobody else ever.

And you will also be familiar with the fault of being ''dead right.''

They used to call the offender the ''burdened vessel''. But now the responsibility and duty is with both captains in a closing situation to avoid a collision rather than stand on and be absolutely in the right and dead.


Someone gets close, seperate.

HERE LIES THE BODY OF JOHN GREY, WHO ALWAYS INSISTED ON HIS RIGHT OF WAY! i know this rule! capt

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