Joe Nall Incident
#126
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
One more thing guys. Please leave the inappropriate language off of RCU. Our rules at the same now as they were in 2001 when RCU launched, we don't allow inappropriate language in our forums. And many of you know it's not appropriate because you used different characters to try and bypass our forum filters. If you have to do that then you know it's not appropriate to be posting that type of language. If I see it I'm simply going to remove it. I've always found that there are plenty of ways to get my point across without having to resort to foul or inappropriate language.
Ken
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
I saw the incident and it was nobody's fault. Flying a pattern only helps reduce the chance of a mid-air. It does not eliminate them. There are too many other factors such as speed, airplane size and depth perception. The Corsair was much smaller and slower. They could have tried to hit eachother several times and not succeeded. It was pure chance. Unfortunately mid-airs are a part of the hobby.
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
I have read this thread and a lot of opinions and views have been expressed; but this midair like so many others that have been aired out on RCU and the Internet have always left me with the impression that the Spotters are not doing their jobs correctly; I go to a lot events, mostly as a spectator, and I have seen time and time again that the spotters busy themselves with watching their Buddies Planes that they are spotting for and ignore all the other traffic, I recall one incident where a guy was flying an A-10, the spotter was enjoying watching the A-10 as well that he didn't see an aircraft coming in on a landing right for the A-10 Pilot that he was spotting for, at the very last moment to avoid his Pilot being hit by the Plane, he yanked/pulled the Pilot out of danger and the Pilot dropped the radio and the A-10 crashed; had the spotter been doing his job he would of seen that this landing aircraft was coming towards them and could have guided the Pilot back and out of danger without losing control of his aircraft; it seems that in this midair, the spotter for the Aircraft doing the aileron roll could have advised the pilot of the proximity of the other aircraft, my 2 cents worth, more like 5 cents worth!
#129
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
ORIGINAL: jwrich
It has been my experience, that 90% of these factory sponsored pilots are hot doggers. They are there to demonstrate their equipment, most of which are 3 D type flying. When they take to the air I give them the air space. Many of the events I attend, at the pilots briefing, they say ''if there are more than one airplane is in the air you must fly the pattern and keep your spacing''. Mid-air crashes are always sad. I think the pilot who did the aileron roll is at fault because he did not have the space to accomplish the maneuver.
My 2 cents
Rich
It has been my experience, that 90% of these factory sponsored pilots are hot doggers. They are there to demonstrate their equipment, most of which are 3 D type flying. When they take to the air I give them the air space. Many of the events I attend, at the pilots briefing, they say ''if there are more than one airplane is in the air you must fly the pattern and keep your spacing''. Mid-air crashes are always sad. I think the pilot who did the aileron roll is at fault because he did not have the space to accomplish the maneuver.
My 2 cents
Rich
#130
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
If am flying something I dont want to lose and someone is flying all over the pattern, I will usually yell at them and resort to confronting them later if they dont stop. If someone wont stop flying otu of pattern I land immediately. Your spotter should of been yelling at the guy to get back in pattern. Its your plane and you need to protect it from people who only care about themselves. Would you rather have a crashed plane and be known as a cry baby or would you rather still have your plane and people consider you a jerk? I like the latter.
No one should pay you for your loss. Its fly at your own risk. Whether it be a mid air, a gust of wind, a bad servo, a radio glitch, or just a mistake in the end the odds are against us. But if you let it be known you wont tolerate people putting your stuff at risk they usually will stay out of your way to avoid the conflict later.
now I am not saying yelling at everyone who does a loop or split S, but the ones going all over the place with no way to control what they hit. Or blatently flying the wrong pattern.
No one should pay you for your loss. Its fly at your own risk. Whether it be a mid air, a gust of wind, a bad servo, a radio glitch, or just a mistake in the end the odds are against us. But if you let it be known you wont tolerate people putting your stuff at risk they usually will stay out of your way to avoid the conflict later.
now I am not saying yelling at everyone who does a loop or split S, but the ones going all over the place with no way to control what they hit. Or blatently flying the wrong pattern.
#132
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
ORIGINAL: gjmjoe017
A friend of mine took his beautiful Top Flite P-47 there this year.He spent two years on the build and added a lot of scale detail.$3,000 in the project.He was flying the pattern an he and his spotter noticed another plane flying along with him.Mike decided to just hold his position and continue in the pattern.About the time of that thought,the other pilot does an alieron roll right into Mikes P-47 sending it to the ground and destroyed.Mike was so upset he walked away to collect his thoughts.Someone came up and told him that the other pilot said Mike flew into him.It turns out this other pilot is a Futaba Team Pilot.Mike confronted him and he admitted that he flew into Mike.Mike let them know he expected to be reimbersed for the loss.He was told they would get back,to date nothing and no respones from his calls to them.Just doesn't seem right.And by the way,Mike has been a loyal Futaba user for years.Will be interesting to see if Futaba does the right thing.
A friend of mine took his beautiful Top Flite P-47 there this year.He spent two years on the build and added a lot of scale detail.$3,000 in the project.He was flying the pattern an he and his spotter noticed another plane flying along with him.Mike decided to just hold his position and continue in the pattern.About the time of that thought,the other pilot does an alieron roll right into Mikes P-47 sending it to the ground and destroyed.Mike was so upset he walked away to collect his thoughts.Someone came up and told him that the other pilot said Mike flew into him.It turns out this other pilot is a Futaba Team Pilot.Mike confronted him and he admitted that he flew into Mike.Mike let them know he expected to be reimbersed for the loss.He was told they would get back,to date nothing and no respones from his calls to them.Just doesn't seem right.And by the way,Mike has been a loyal Futaba user for years.Will be interesting to see if Futaba does the right thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sIOr2LFd68
JQ
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
Anyone who believes that a mid-air collision is the "fault" of another pilot has obviously never tried to fly combat! How can you blame someone for an accident when they couldn't have even done it on purpose? All mid-air collisions are acts of God...
#136
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
ORIGINAL: bigedmustafa
Anyone who believes that a mid-air collision is the "fault" of another pilot has obviously never tried to fly combat! How can you blame someone for an accident when they couldn't have even done it on purpose? All mid-air collisions are acts of God...
Anyone who believes that a mid-air collision is the "fault" of another pilot has obviously never tried to fly combat! How can you blame someone for an accident when they couldn't have even done it on purpose? All mid-air collisions are acts of God...
But in any reasonable world yes Mid-Airs are an act of God. That with standing just like auto accidents there can/and is the possibility of Negligence.
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
What is there like A thousand planes flying at Nall and only one mishap. My hats off to them. Is anyone responsible? no! Unless it was on purpose, Not!. Sounds like the only guy complaining is you. No one wants to see a crash, but that's the name of the game. If the heats too hot , get out of the kitchen!
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
Guys,
I was there live and in color it was a mid-air nothing else. It can happen especially during the noon time airshow, There were "Alot" of planes during the WW II part. People tend to forget the were other incidents during the week. If I remember there were 5 planes that went down on Wednesday between 5 -6 pm. It only take 2 planes to have a midair we just need spotters to see the whole sky not just the person your spotting for.
I was there live and in color it was a mid-air nothing else. It can happen especially during the noon time airshow, There were "Alot" of planes during the WW II part. People tend to forget the were other incidents during the week. If I remember there were 5 planes that went down on Wednesday between 5 -6 pm. It only take 2 planes to have a midair we just need spotters to see the whole sky not just the person your spotting for.
#140
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
ORIGINAL: capt1597
if my plane rolled and hit another because of dumb thumbs i would pay for the other plane! if my plane rolled and hit another because of equipment failing i would pay for the other plane!
i feel that i am responsible for my actions that do harm. but that's just me. i know lots of people that think they are above responsibility especially when it means that they have to take cash out of their pocket. life is choices. i prefer my choices. but that's just me.
me, i would never ask another that had flown into my plane and hurt it to pay. i would expect them to offer but if they did not i would not ask or hound them to pay but i would not have much regard for them in the future.
lots and lots and lots of people can come up with endless excuses as to why they should not have to pay out their cash to cover their actions. worlds full of them and they will endlessly jabber their justification, who cares. but that's just me
"it's the spotters fault" now this is a new low!
just my two cents, but thats just me!
happy flying, capt
if my plane rolled and hit another because of dumb thumbs i would pay for the other plane! if my plane rolled and hit another because of equipment failing i would pay for the other plane!
i feel that i am responsible for my actions that do harm. but that's just me. i know lots of people that think they are above responsibility especially when it means that they have to take cash out of their pocket. life is choices. i prefer my choices. but that's just me.
me, i would never ask another that had flown into my plane and hurt it to pay. i would expect them to offer but if they did not i would not ask or hound them to pay but i would not have much regard for them in the future.
lots and lots and lots of people can come up with endless excuses as to why they should not have to pay out their cash to cover their actions. worlds full of them and they will endlessly jabber their justification, who cares. but that's just me
"it's the spotters fault" now this is a new low!
just my two cents, but thats just me!
happy flying, capt
#142
RE: Joe Nall Incident
ORIGINAL: Rotten40851
How dare we blame the spotters!!! We hit a NEW LOW!!!!! By the way I said ''IF, IF it was anybodys fault it was the P-47's spotter''!!!!!!
ORIGINAL: capt1597
if my plane rolled and hit another because of dumb thumbs i would pay for the other plane! if my plane rolled and hit another because of equipment failing i would pay for the other plane!
i feel that i am responsible for my actions that do harm. but that's just me. i know lots of people that think they are above responsibility especially when it means that they have to take cash out of their pocket. life is choices. i prefer my choices. but that's just me.
me, i would never ask another that had flown into my plane and hurt it to pay. i would expect them to offer but if they did not i would not ask or hound them to pay but i would not have much regard for them in the future.
lots and lots and lots of people can come up with endless excuses as to why they should not have to pay out their cash to cover their actions. worlds full of them and they will endlessly jabber their justification, who cares. but that's just me
''it's the spotters fault'' now this is a new low!
just my two cents, but thats just me!
happy flying, capt
if my plane rolled and hit another because of dumb thumbs i would pay for the other plane! if my plane rolled and hit another because of equipment failing i would pay for the other plane!
i feel that i am responsible for my actions that do harm. but that's just me. i know lots of people that think they are above responsibility especially when it means that they have to take cash out of their pocket. life is choices. i prefer my choices. but that's just me.
me, i would never ask another that had flown into my plane and hurt it to pay. i would expect them to offer but if they did not i would not ask or hound them to pay but i would not have much regard for them in the future.
lots and lots and lots of people can come up with endless excuses as to why they should not have to pay out their cash to cover their actions. worlds full of them and they will endlessly jabber their justification, who cares. but that's just me
''it's the spotters fault'' now this is a new low!
just my two cents, but thats just me!
happy flying, capt
#143
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
Talk is cheap ... I'd doubt very seriously that many if any one having a mid-air at an event like Joe Nall and loosening their big expensive plane, after hitting and downing another, would just out of the goodness of their heart, dig 3 grand out of their wallet. Again to make my point "Money Talks and Bull xxxxx Walks. xxxxx=Manure from male cows.
I certainly hope that doesn't offend.
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
when i fly in a gaggle i do try to find some clear air and i sure rely on my spotter! if your close time to bug out! go low, go high or turn its not that hard to make room! but yes mid airs do happen i am sorry for your loss but get over it. when you fly with others it does happen. go build another one. as i was learning this hobby many years ago i was almost ready to give up with repairs on my planes but i realized its part of the hobby. if i cant afford it then i better start building model railroads instead.
#145
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
Out of curiosity, why would the P-47 pilot Mike "just hold his position"? If I am in the air and someone gets too chummy and close, I tell my spotter to call a loop, or my spotter suggests it, and I break off my pattern by either banking out left or right, or pulling up and out depending on where the other guy is.
There was obviously a decision by the P-47 pilot to "just hold his position" and that is laid at nobody else's feet but his. Very sorry for the loss. Mid-air's are unfortunately part of the hobby and unless the other pilot was flying against the pattern or breaking flight rules outlined at the morning pilot's meetings, then there's not much here to discuss.
Again, sorry for the loss, it's a shame for both pilots.
Shaz
There was obviously a decision by the P-47 pilot to "just hold his position" and that is laid at nobody else's feet but his. Very sorry for the loss. Mid-air's are unfortunately part of the hobby and unless the other pilot was flying against the pattern or breaking flight rules outlined at the morning pilot's meetings, then there's not much here to discuss.
Again, sorry for the loss, it's a shame for both pilots.
Shaz
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RE: Joe Nall Incident
ORIGINAL: sskianpour
Out of curiosity, why would the P-47 pilot Mike ''just hold his position''? If I am in the air and someone gets too chummy and close, I tell my spotter to call a loop, or my spotter suggests it, and I break off my pattern by either banking out left or right, or pulling up and out depending on where the other guy is.
There was obviously a decision by the P-47 pilot to ''just hold his position'' and that is laid at nobody else's feet but his. Very sorry for the loss. Mid-air's are unfortunately part of the hobby and unless the other pilot was flying against the pattern or breaking flight rules outlined at the morning pilot's meetings, then there's not much here to discuss.
Again, sorry for the loss, it's a shame for both pilots.
Shaz
Out of curiosity, why would the P-47 pilot Mike ''just hold his position''? If I am in the air and someone gets too chummy and close, I tell my spotter to call a loop, or my spotter suggests it, and I break off my pattern by either banking out left or right, or pulling up and out depending on where the other guy is.
There was obviously a decision by the P-47 pilot to ''just hold his position'' and that is laid at nobody else's feet but his. Very sorry for the loss. Mid-air's are unfortunately part of the hobby and unless the other pilot was flying against the pattern or breaking flight rules outlined at the morning pilot's meetings, then there's not much here to discuss.
Again, sorry for the loss, it's a shame for both pilots.
Shaz
I agree completely. He admits to recognizing the situation and not responding proactively. At that point, this midair became a collaboration. The atitude that , "I'm not changing my course, I expect you to change your course" was passive and ineffective. If you have the opportunity to avoid an accident, but choose not to, (for any reason), then don't call foul on the other guy. Both pilots need to recognise thier mistakes and learn from them.
#147
RE: Joe Nall Incident
I am from a maritime background. now retired. if the ship had an accident it is the captains fault. period. nobody else ever.
And you will also be familiar with the fault of being "dead right."
They used to call the offender the "burdened vessel". But now the responsibility and duty is with both captains in a closing situation to avoid a collision rather than stand on and be absolutely in the right and dead.
Someone gets close, seperate.
#150
RE: Joe Nall Incident
ORIGINAL: Charlie P.
And you will also be familiar with the fault of being ''dead right.''
They used to call the offender the ''burdened vessel''. But now the responsibility and duty is with both captains in a closing situation to avoid a collision rather than stand on and be absolutely in the right and dead.
Someone gets close, seperate.
I am from a maritime background. now retired. if the ship had an accident it is the captains fault. period. nobody else ever.
And you will also be familiar with the fault of being ''dead right.''
They used to call the offender the ''burdened vessel''. But now the responsibility and duty is with both captains in a closing situation to avoid a collision rather than stand on and be absolutely in the right and dead.
Someone gets close, seperate.