nine o nine

My Feedback: (1)

How about measuring the center lines of the wing tube socket and anti rotation hole....maybe the Barth design is not like this but there still should be a line of centers. Wouldn't that be the AOI??? Mitch

hopkimf

My Feedback: (56)

I don't have a good photo either, but as I said before......looking at the upper wing center section from the rear, it is apparent the TE is essentially flat through the center but comes up to meet the outer (root) ribs. This means the angle of incidence of the outer (root) rib is different than the others toward the center. There is no warping involved. That's just the way it was designed. Then look at the wings that plug into the center. The TE is flat, the ribs are parallel. No warping or twisting built in. Angle of incidence remains constant for entire length. I did check my Barth model which is in process. plugged wings in, set center to minus 2 at the root rib (could have been any angle) and checked both wings. Same~~ incidence as root.

I was confused earlier until I saw what tmac was talking about. If one chooses the midpoint of upper wing center section for a reference incidence, the root and plug-in wings will be at a different angle, the angle of the root rib.

M Hopkins #132

tmac48

I just thought of another way to explain what is happening. If you draw a line from leading edge to trailing edge of the outer panel root rib , now take this root rib and measure say 3 inches from the trailing edge back on the bottom of the rib this will represent the root rib of the center section, now draw a line from leading edge to trailing edge and you will see that it has a greater AOA .



tmac.

tmac48

nine o nine you are correct and by doing this is how I realised what was happening, but by this time I had made a jig that the centre section sat on, used this to determine my 2 deg neg AOA and made my cabanes, I did not realise my mistake untill I had made all my wing struts and was setting up the complete model.
tmac

WacoNut

I will throw my .02 in here as well.
On the AMR 33% Waco it came with a wing jig for building the cabane wires. The top wing is held in place by the jig and the wires are fitted. Now with that being said the bottom of the center section is set at "0" in relation to the thrust line(top of the fuse box). I had to take special care in this area on my rebuild as the cabane mounting was set to the old fuse and luckily they lined up perfectly on the new fuse. One of the great things about a laser cut kit.
Due to the flight characteristics I had from the 1st build and the amount of down trim for level flight I increased the stab angle to +3 deg and I set the balance point at 29% MAC. The WACO now flies very stable with no tendency to porpoise in level flight and I actually had to add 4 clicks of up trim for level flight. Looks like +2.5 deg on the stab would have been the sweet spot.

I also tamed my landings by reducing the tire pressure to near "0". the tires just have enough air in them to hold the plane up. This gives more cushion to the landing.

You cannot use the center of the center section for setting the incidence based off of the T/E position. It is off due to the edge being cut back for the cockpit clearance. You need to move out to the full chord portion of the wing to check the incidence with a meter.

Ahhhh isn't rigging a bipe fun
Anthony

tmac48

You are right on WacoNut, even on the wing outer section you do not get the correct reading until you are at the point of full cord. Makes it very difficult to set the correct AOA using the centre sections ,both on the top wing and bottom wing as I ran into this same problem there as well, infact that is where it all started to go wrong for me.

Regards tmac.

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hopkimf

My Feedback: (56)

tmac,

I did make a quickie sketch, not to scale. look at back view and see if it does what ikt does.

Mike Hopkins

Waco # 132

hopkimf

My Feedback: (56)

Improved sketch. It's for real. higher incidence on root rib. it's subtle. The sketch was not to scale but if you look close, you can see it. Enough of this? PRO/E graphics is pretty handy. Takes just a few minutes.

mike H

#132

chuck l

My Feedback: (17)

Anthony,

Any flight updates on your Waco, your thread has been quiet for a couple of weeks? How's the back?

Chuck

WacoNut

Hi Chuck,
I have only flown the Waco once since the maiden flights. The only change I made was to lower the air pressure in the tires and that smoothed out the landing. I had used the throws recommended by Mitch for all the control surfaces and Mitch stated they were for smooth flight. We had a nice crosswind and I had a very hard time keeping the Waco lined up for landing as I did not have enough rudder throw to counter the crosswind. After 3 aborted attempts and my nerves totally frazzled I handed the radio over to my buddy and it took him 3 attempts to get the Waco on the runway for a nice smooth landing. That is the 1st time I have seen a plane shake him up, he was sweating bullets by the time he landed the plane.

I have since adjusted the rudder throw and added more aileron throw on high rates to improve the roll rate. Due to back issues I am having I have not flown the Waco since. Spending a 1/2 hr bent over assembling the plane is not an option right now. I was wanting to take the Waco to the sale nationals in Muncie this month but my back is going to keep me grounded.

Later!!
Anthony

hopkimf

My Feedback: (56)

Happy fourth everyone!

WacoNut,

I'm not so skilled in RC. With a crosswind I never seem to get a stable approach with the right control inputs. I usually just plant it and hope it works. I would like to use my full scale methods, wing down or crab. Seems a lot easier for me in a full scale (unless the wind is really howling and gusty). With wing down method, lower the upwind wing and apply opposite rudder to maintain runway alignment. It's actually cross controlled. Hold it right thru to touchdown. Landing on upwind wheel OK. Full aileron deflection into wind after it's down. Popular method with full scale. The other method is to crab into the wind to maintain runway alignment. Crab it all the way down until almost touchdown then kick it straight with rudder, and full aileron into wind once down.

Pilots argue about the advantages of each. With wing down, it is possible to run out of rudder in strong crosswind. Or with low wing large span, possible to drag a wingtip. You never see an airliner doing a wing down. With crab, there really isn't a limit to crosswind provided you kick it straight at the right time. And of course, a taildragger has the CG behind the mains, so if you land at an angle to the runway centerline the airplane mass located at the CG wants to keep going as it was making the potential for a trip off the runway or a ground loop. Tricycles are more forgiving with the CG ahead of mains. With them if you land at an angle to the runway the CG tends to straighten the plane out.

Regards,

Mike Hopkins

Waco Brotherhood # 132

WacoNut

Mike,
I normally let the plane crab into the wind and straighten it out with rudder close to touchdown. My big problem was I didn't have enough rudder to straighten it out and we had a crowded flight line at the field and the plane was crabbing toward the flight line. We had to move up the runway during our fly-in due to flooding and the flight line was closer to the runway than we would have liked and that really just un-nerved me a bit. The thought of a 60lb plane and a 34" prop hitting someone scared the crap out of me.

I fly my 1/3 Cub in a cross wind quite a bit and it is fun using the rudder to keep it straight on final but there is a lot less stress flying the Cub.
Later!!
Anthony

nine o nine

My Feedback: (1)

Hi Anthony, I've got to agree worth Mike on crosswind approaches and landings. It can be extremely challenging. For models I've found that picking a heading that holds the flight path to the runway (longitudinal axis of the plane into the wind) almost into the flare then a gentle kick to the runway heading works best. Of course adjustments have to be made because the wind is never steady but with that method rather than just trying to rudder the plane, which will put you into a skid or slip, I.E. uncoordinated flight, you'll be in much more control. It takes many practise approaches to get the feeling for it....work with acro planes or foamies. You'll feel much more confident with that beautiful Waco. Overcontrolling leads to bad approaches and worse landings. Don't I know it first hand!!!!! Mitch

FMBB

Tmac, Mike,

sorry for being late with my answer but I had to work in the UK for a few days. If you are measuring the AOI of the upper wing you must use the root ribs for the measurements as the ribs in the center of the upper center section are not symmetrical. For the lower wing you may use the root ribs of the center section as well, even they are shorter (Upper root ribs aren't) due to the fact that they are symmetrical center section root ribs will give you the correct AOI.

Peter # 170

hopkimf

My Feedback: (56)

Peter,

After lots of discussion, postings, etc., I understand. It threw me off at first because the 1/4 Pepino I built several years ago wasn't like that.

Thanks,

Mike Hopkins

Brotherhood # 132

WacoNut

Mike,
The Pepino Waco has the ribs all wrong in the top center section. They taper down from the top instead of up from the bottom. I have no idea why he drew the ribs like that. I drew new ribs for my build. I wish now I had flown the plane at least once before donating it.
Later!!
Anthony

tmac48

WacoNut, that is exactly how the Barth centre sections are fabricated,taper is from the top of the ribs.

Peter I know you design and you build and fly and I'm sure you're a lot better at all of this than me, but the way I see it even the root rib on the outer wing sections are not at the same AOA as the rest of the wing?



Regards tmac.

tmac48

Fuel lines with servo leads are finished,can be removed and reinstalled with the way I have made them. Will get my but into gear and finish the front screen.



Regards tmac.

FMBB

Hi Tmac, Mike,

Tmac is right, I mixed it up with our current project I am building. I should have had a closer look to our Waco down stairs. Due to the fact that also the root ribs of the Waco (upper and lower) are not having the same length as the outer "main" full length ribs and that the upper profile of the ribs goes steeper down as the "normal" airfoil would do the trailing edge of these ribs lays lower than the long wing ribs. This will result in a more positive AoA than the long wing ribs have (valid for the upper and lower wing). So to determine the wings AoA you have to built the outer panels first to be able to measure the AoA there before you glue the center sections in place if you want to be absolutely accurate and sure. The lower center section will be due to its click in installation very difficult to wrongly install so I would not claim if you glue this in place without having the outer panels available. For the upper center section it is absolutely mandatory to have the outer panels, even if the center wing will be placed on the gauge it will require some more adjustment activities before the brass ends may be soldered in place.

Sorry for wrong info.

Peter Brother #170

hopkimf

My Feedback: (56)

Peter, Tmac,

Thanks. It is there, but I have trouble measuring it. My clamped together bars to extend Robart gage may make it heavy enough with the two bars and four clamps to affect readings by putting a small torsional load on wings. So I'm out of measuring business.

I took a last look at my assembled upper. Flat on table upside down, center supported, wings free.

Center section at (near as possible to root) Robart 4.0 both sides

Left wing-inner (First full rib) 4.0 Outer (nearest to aileron) 4+

Right inner 4 Outer 3.5

I call all that pretty close.

Mike Hopkins

Waco Brotherhood # 132

WacoNut

There seems to be some confusion around the top wing center section.

I am not looking to ruffle anyone's feathers but I don't want someone to go full bore on a scale build and miss something either. From all the pics I have of the full scale the top wing center sections (John's CD) has the T/E cut back with the hand holds and the bottom skin tapers up from the aft spar to meet the T/E. It does not taper down from the top. The top skin maintains the same profile as the outer panels. This also allows a bit more clearance on the full scale for passengers to get into the cockpit. Which isn't all that easy of a task to begin with.

I am attaching a pic of the top wing center section on my Waco from the back during the rebuild and a picture from above. Maybe I am wrong in what I am seeing on the full scale.

Later!!
Anthony
ps: I am adding a couple pics of the full scale to clarify. Look above Robin's head and you will see the bottom skin tapers up.

tmac48

hopkimf, you are correct it is very difficult to set all the wing panels up and then try to make the center cabanes with the correct AOA. I do believe it is possible to use only the centre section without the outer panels by determining the different AOA of the centre section compared to the outer panels and then compensating for this when setting up for the corrected AOA. For example the center section may require to be set at say 5-6 deg neg to obtain a AOA of 2 deg neg on the outer panels. It does make things a lot easier if you make a gij that sits on the fus and holds the center section at correct AOA while you fabricate the cabanes .

Regards tmac.

tmac48

Nut you correct with how the AMR kit handles the shape of the center section, I do not have any idea how the full scale is built but if you look at this photo of my Barth model I think you can clearly see that the center section ribs are shaped down from the top to the bottom . Even with the AMR kit with the taper in the up direction you would still need to allow for this when using only the center section to set the AOA , In this case you would be allowing less neg AOA on center section to get the correct AOA of the outer panels.
tmac.

WacoNut

tmac,
Yes you can definitely see the difference. I had never noticed that before between the 2 kits.
Later!!
Anthony