dphill2

My Feedback: (1)

Guy's,
I have been FLYING a R61 with a 11X10 APC and the motor runs just fine !!
I have not had a problem with overheating, pre-ignition,rough running, or hi cylinder head temps Etc.
As a matter of fact the motor seems to run cooler with that prop. I ran about 10 tanks of fuel through this motor and have not seen any problems running it with the 11X10 at all. When I ran it with a 11X7 1/4 rev up the motor seem to out run the prop as you increased the throttle, the speed did not increase with it. We ran a 11x8, 11X9 and the 11X10. what I'm flying now and most happy with it. The R60 side EX is another story and I'm sure it will not do very well on the larger pitch props, That motor is a square bore and stroke @ 23.33X23.33 even though box says long stroke. I would stay in the 11X7 area with this motor and I'm sure you will be happier with it .
O yeah, I'm running the stock Nova Rossi pipe and header using 10% nitro and the motor turns 14,100 on the ground..

Dave..

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Dave,

Thanks for clarifying that. Do you have any rpm figures on the four APC's (7, 8, 9 & 10)? I take it the 14.1K is the 11x10, correct?

Jim,

I was going to point out the same thing that Dave highlighted. The SE versions are square engines so technically, "equal" stroke, so to speak. Just to point out the difference between vintage Rossi (and the new YS classic I believe) short strokes which are the more typical 24x22 geometry. But like you and Dave point out, they are for all intensive purposes, certainly compared to the RE engines, short stroke in nature. NR has adopted their own particularly fine tuned geometry in both engines since the RE is not a typical LS either...

David

Jim Oliver

My Feedback: (1)

David,
I know about Dave's experience witrh the Speed 13 and 11x10 APC. The cautions still apply.

As to the side exhaust NR engijnes, they are as mentioned, "square" and "short stroke" configuration, (23.33mm x 23.33mm, per the NR data), "usually" not suited to heavy prop load. Some guys had great results running the old YS short strokes with heavy prop load, and relatively high nitro fuel. We don't have any experience, yet, with the NR short strokes under those conditions. Hence, the cautions to procede with care.

We know that these new NovaRossi products are great engines and we owe a big Thank You to NR for producing them and to the fine folks importing them into the US. It would be really great if we could get torque curves from NR for these engines.

Regards,
Jim

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Jim,

Indeed. This is something that is being worked on...

We should be able to expect something on the R60F sooner (I hope) and something on the R61F-Speed a little later.

Even though it is proxy data, power and thrust curves are of interest too.

David

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

For all of those still looking, blame computermonkey for buying the last P7 in Dallas/Fort Worth and the Texas panhandle. I found 1 more of them for him here and now it's gone to a good home

I didn't check South Texas or the commercial chains like Hobby Town.

An excellent option would be the Vertigo Right Robert?

KLXMASTER14

You got that right Buddy!

=Robert

computermonkey

My Feedback: (90)

Tim I can't believe you told on me. LOL
I now have Dirdy Birdy, and a P7. Now I have one more plane of interest.

I just want to thank Tim publicly (now the cat is out of the bag) for dropping me that IM.

I've been collecting engines over the years now I'm to the point I do not know what engine to put on the planes.

Here is my thought so far.
Dirdy Birdy. Moki 61 LS side exhaust. It can turn a APC 12x10 at 11100 on no nitro and a untuned pipe or a APC 11x7 at 14000. Also on no nitro.

P7 here are my options: Enya 60XF4 AAC gear pump side exhaust, Rossi black head short short, Rossi black head long short, OS 61 SF ring, OS 61 FSR ABC (carb options, 7D, 7M, perry pump carb. can also install a perry pump black plate), Enya 80XF ring, Webra 61 black head long stroke, Webra 61 speed, Webra 80 speed, Webra 70 speed, Moki 61 LS side exhaust. I might be trading/buying a YS 61 long stroke side exhaust (don't know if they are worth getting?). hmmmm


ComputerMonkey

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

CM,

Put short strokes 60's on both of 'em! [8D] I vote for the Rossi and Webra Speed on 11x7's and 11x8. Those planes have relatively small wings so check your engine weights. If you're going to buy a YS, get the new one...

David

computermonkey

My Feedback: (90)

What is the cost of the new YS say 350? The YS LS that I found is 140 and I think the NR is going for 189?

Weight: Webra speed 61 is the lightest, Moki 61 LS is right behind, OS 61 FSR and Enya 60 then the Rossi being the heavious.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

I was told $325 for the new YS.

Sorry it slipped, I won't tell anyone else...hehehe

speed-panzer

My Feedback: (1)

Nice to read other fellows are struggling same problem as oneself:

"Which engine to install into the next classic ballistic pattern plane?" Over the years quite a pile of all oh so nice engines have accumulated....

I once took the time to create an excel spreadsheet with most of the dimensions important for installation, and weigth. Several short and long strokes are listed. The Enya 60XLF without pump is almost as light as the the Webra, Rossi is the hog.

Dominik

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Danke schön Dominik. That's some good info. The OS says an M8, that's 8mm, right? I was told it's SAE and reamed a prop with 1/4" and it was loose on an OS 55 and a TT Pro 61. It's not a low tolerance fit like I would like it to be with either metric or SAE.

Ed, any news on the NR 60? That's the CR version isn't it? I'm curious about the performance...you're killing me here.

Tim

edp

My Feedback: (5)

Hey Tim,
I'm going to break in my NR Thursday or Friday and hope to have in the air Sunday. Summer shut down starts for me on Thursday, then 17days off

speed-panzer

My Feedback: (1)

Dang - this trick about metric and UNF thread sizes caught me again! Thanks for the hint.

The outer diameter of that crank thread on all .61 OS engines is 5/16", which calculates to 7.9375 mm - close to 8mm. But of course it is no M8 metric thread! OS uses 5/16-24 UNF.
MVVS, YS and the I think the later .61 Webras are using metric M8 thread. I will have to check that. Corrected excel sheet attached.

Prop reaming: Happened to me also using the stepped reamer to enlarge the propeller bore, and found it too loose for my taste. So now I am reaming my props with a conical round file, and keep testing until it just fits nicely. Balancing of course not to be forgotten.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

I got 'a' test flight in yesterday. Mine came out 7 lbs 4 oz empty. I used (2) bladder tanks for a total of 8 oz of fuel and flew with the Macs exhaust. The OS 55 was turning an APC 12x6 set really rich at 10,700 rpms. Should have been stronger than my Kaos' TT Pro 61 with the same prop because it's turning just slightly more RPMs but for now it's not. I'll get in the recommended 10 flights rich and then see what this engine can do. One thing I noticed about the OS 55 is seems to have heat swings.

The bladder tanks didn't help since they kept flooding the carb. I don't use starters, because my TT starts with a quick snap of the spinner backwards, but I'll have to start carrying one now. The tanks are above the carburetor and I was told they won't gravity feed but I think this may not be entirely accurate.

I shortened the gear but kept the nose high but the 12" prop is hitting the clumps of grass at our field and one of the mains twisted on landing so I'll have to fix that today. I might try an 11x7 or see if they make a 11x8 Scimitar.

The thrust line seems ok, nothing major wrong but I'll do some thrust line tests later.

I did run some carbon fiber tow around around the edge where the firewall meets the fuselage and then glassed over that but I got some of it on the mounting area for the engine mount and had to Dremel it out...ugh!

The flight
Set rich so the plane flies like a dog (for now) but on the down lines I get a bit excited because I can see where this plane will be with a strong engine. Plus when I rotated to a 45 up and then inverted it, it shot towards the ground so when I laterally balance it I'll add the weight to the TE of the wing tip and add 1/4 oz to the tail to start off with so I can get it balanced corectly. I was probably 1/4" forward of the CG so I expected some of this.

Take off was predictable and straight. With low power I increased the take off roll and climbed out very shallow. Plus the engine kept dying on my on the ground when I'd throttle up so I had to go really rich to keep it going so I didn't want to loose too much airspeed.

One of the bladder tanks broke loose. I had glued that one in with CA...don't use CA on the inside of the fuselage, it won't stick good. I might clamp that one off for now. It's only for use with the Jett muffler which sucks the fuel.

I'll try to get it out again today after I've made some changes.

Tim

edp

My Feedback: (5)

Hey Tim,
I ran up my engine for the first time. Total run time = 35 minutes. Temp. 80, humidity 80% (yuk), Fuel Wildcat 15% w/ 18% oil. I added 3 oz. of castor oil to get the 20% they wanted.
With the muffler absolute peak 13140RPM. reliable running with an APC 11x7 12250 and able to lean out more w/ the in-flight mix. APC 11x8 11560 RPM. I didn't even try a 11x9 APC. Low end needle is eight turns out and has instant response. High end needle is 1-1/3 turns out. Used NR C6S plug.
I think after it has some time on it, the numbers will improve. I didn't do an open face run as it was ready to start raining.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

All, are these wing tips just hollow fiberglass? If so I think I'll cut a diamond shape wedge out of the tip, put my weight in with some epoxy and seal it back up and put some new Ultracote over the patch. Not a clean job but doable.

Thanks Ed. I'm starting to learn that ground performance and flight performance are different so I'll be curious about your flights. Next time I'm at the field I'll try some other props and get peak RPMs too.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

I added about 30 grams to the wing tip to laterally balance it. I drilled a hole in the tip, dropped in some fishing lead, then mixed epoxy and micro balloons and squirt it on top of the weight with a syringe while the wing sat LE up and TE on the table top. That way I was adding tail weight at the same time, at least a bit. When I get the engine/muffler choice worked out I'll seal the hole with Ultracote.

I got in about 4 flights tonight. I switched from the 12x6 APC to a 12x8 Scimitar and it had better performance. Running rich I was getting about 10,500 rpm. Once the plane is in the air it's fine but it has some mid range problems (OS 55). It flies much better with more speed. NICE

I added 1/4 oz tail weight...much better, but I need another 1/4 oz. I have two elevator servos which required another servo in front of the CG. I have the battery (LiFe) up front and the regulator near the CG.

I got some elevation on the P7 and slowed it way down to a stop on the windy day...I see why they are having a problem getting it to stall. H9 did an excellent job on the jigs, this thing is straight. I still want to put an incidence meter on it as well as triangulate all the flying surfaces to make sure everything is aligned properly.

Seems like the nose incidences were fine because I have no bad tendencies yet with throttle position or weird yawing. I still need to do the trim sequence so we'll see what happens. I did mount a 1/2 thick 12"x12" board to the engine to stand it on the nose and used a 48" tee square and I had down thrust and left thrust which I got rid of during the installation to 0 right and 0 down. I might add a bit more right because I pull a few up lines and it pulled the other way. I'll get some more time first.

Ed, I just now noticed the blue head NR R60F has a removable pipe ring. I also read that the CR is replacing them. The 60F has 8 ports and the 60CR has 6 ports...what does that do for you if you had 2 more ports? They also increased the crank size and the carb size a bit. I'm a bit leery of the rear needle valve though. Any problems yet? I may have to get one for the 'Spirit of Texas' Dirty Birdy I'm trying to finish up.

Tim

speed-panzer

My Feedback: (1)

Tim,

in my opinion, I would allow the .55 OS to unload a little more rpm and run it with a 11x8 APC. This will give you more speed, and those planes just loves it. Do you use a pipe? You should get around 12.000rpm minimum.
I am pretty sure you won´t recognize the plane again!

CG position: Trim set up for level fligth with about 65% power should have the elevator flap in line with the airfoil of the elevator. If you let the plane dive vertically with engine on idle, there should be only a slightly pitch up moment. If the plane quickly tries to return into level flight, your elevator seems to be trimmed to much up. Add some tail weight, re-trim level fligth and try again.

Dominik

edp

My Feedback: (5)

Hey Tim.
The adapter plate and muffler is CR's. I did have to make a gasket between the engine and adapter to stop a leak.. The set-up is a PIA. Just think of ports as valves.
I haven't been able to get into the air the weather has turned lousy for the whole week.
I do like the in-flight mix. I had to ADD throw at the servo as it takes a lot of movement to change settings. It is also backwards, counter clockwise will lean it down.

edp

My Feedback: (5)

Just got back from the field.
Weather 85 degrees w/ 80% humidity. I'll be glad when this weather pattern breaks. On the plane, 11940 RPM (still new) but unloaded in the air. I was able to play w/ the mix to see the needle reaction in the air. I was able to lean it down in the air. I then landed and checked the RPMs. On the ground I picked up 200 RPM so I set the in-flight back to center and leaned the needle down to 12190. Flew two more flights at that setting. Total engine run time 58 minutes. I was able to do inside outside vertical eights w/o any hiccups. I pulled several outside loops and inverted passes w/o problems plus hard vertical push ups. We were able to get the tank down a 1/4" to 1/2" lower by removing some foam.
I'm waiting for cooler temps and lower humidity to get better numbers. The engine is breaking in nicely. Same set-up of Wildcat 15% and 20% oil with stock plug and APC 11x7.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Good to hear, I think I'll order the 60CR and play around with it.

I've found comparing numbers of prop RPMs to actual flight is different. The APC 11x7 on 10% worked better in flight than the 12x6 APC/Scimitar or the 12x8 Scimitar on the OS 55. I'll change to the Jett muffler later and see how it runs. If I start having reliability issues I'll drop that engine for something else.

I have a small gap between the spinner and the nose ring on the left side but pulling level to vertical it's really arcing to the left so I'm going to put more right thrust in it and try it again.

Tim

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

Weight:
Right now I'm at 7 lbs 6 oz because of the tip and tail weight (2 oz). I've added 3/4 oz to the tail, 1 oz to the left wing tip and I still need another 1/4 oz on the tail (they are stick on weights for now). My weight and balance calculations tell me I can put the battery under the servos and remove the tail weight (Boring Alert!!! Tail = 1 oz @ 800mm=800 moments. Battery 3.3 oz @ 215mm = 710 moments therefore 90 moments difference so 90 moments/3.3 oz is about 27mm in front of the CG. So I'll put the battery about an inch in front of the CG and get rid of the 1 oz tail weight.).

As I said before, the nose ring is messed up on the fuselage. I mounted the engine per the nose ring/spinner and it had a significant left thrust. I thought I adjusted it out but during the up lines it pitches quickly to the left. I was told this was supposed to be corrected with right rudder which I disagree with because the angle of attack is parallel to the flight path.
The motor mount won't allow it to be adjusted any more so the spinner is already hanging off the right side of the nose. I also installed the nose wheel gear backwards [:@] so today I'm thinking of taking the engine and nose gear out, remove the rails and sub former for the retract unit and use the Dubro stock gear to mount it to the backside of the firewall. I wouldn't recommend this unless you've really secured the firewall with some composites. I used a ring of carbon tow followed by some fiberglass. Then I'll fill the stock slots in the firewall and move the whole engine mount over about 1/8".

The rail and steering modifications are because I'm going to keep this plane set up for SPA. I'll probably set up a Vertigo with retracts and pipe later so don't scoff at me for ripping the rails out...hehehe!

Ed, I'll probably set the DB up with the NR 60CR which was set up for this OS 55 so I'm curious about the mounting dimensions. I haven't found any dimensions on the sites yet.
How is it running with the remote needle valve? OS has made me leery of the remote setup. Once it's tuned out I'd like to know about the vertical performance too because I had more RPM from some of the 12" Scimitars but when I switched to the APC 11x7, even though it had less RPMs, it was pulling stronger in the verticals. It's broken in now so I'll start to adjust the needles and try the prop combos again.

At this point I am real happy with the plane after I balanced it out a bit and got more thrust. It flies really smooth and I'm looking forward to the final product. I can see why Robert likes the Vertigo now.

Tim

edp

My Feedback: (5)

Tim
I have tried to fly this past week but the weather will not cooperate. I pulled into a loop and into a cloud. It is still 75-80 degrees w/ 80+% humidity. Today the engine ran lean after take off so I was able to richen it up w/ the mix. This is a nice feature.
I will buy another for the P-6.

Timthetoolman1

My Feedback: (6)

I found the problem...stabs (operator error)! My wife was hurrying me and said 'go, go, go, you can have this ready for this weekends meet' (ok, maybe it's not all her fault) and even against those constant voices in my head telling me to put the P7 away till after the meet I forged ahead and ASSumed the stab would key themselves in the right location but I was wrong and now the left stab is at least 1.5 degrees positive. I don't know if the keys are messed up or if there was a compound error going on (gluing one at the top of the key and the other at the bottom if there was slop).
My solutions are:
1. Cut of the stabs with a coping saw and order new ones and install them right
2. Cut off just the right one and try to get it to glue back on but it will probably separate.
3. Cut both stabs off and make a 1 piece stab that runs through the fuselage.
I like option 3 the best. Does anyone have the P7 stab profiles?
I have till September 7 to get this fixed or wait till after October when our season ends. I may live with the problem for now because it seems I've tuned the flight surfaces to get predictable results but it's bugging me! [>:]

The other problem I found, and it's minor, is that when I measured from the vertical stab to the wing tip the left one is 11mm closer than the right one; however, the wing is in the saddle with equal amounts of wing on each side of the fuselage.

The OS 55 is now broken in and runs much better. I removed the 4 oz tank, moved the 6 oz to sit just above the wing saddle and I get no more runaway fuel problems. The OS is running smooth and the Macs pipe is doing great. I don't have unlimited vertical but I have to pull power to get it from going too high on stall turns. I think the target weight of the OS 55 with the Macs is 6.5 lbs dry...best guess. I'll remove the front gear mounts like I mentioned and get a new weight.

Right now (moved battery under servo tray, removed tail weights) I'm at 7 lbs 4 oz. I'm hoping removing the wood will get me in the 7 lb range still.