Why the AMA is not growing...........
07-07-2013, 04:23 PM
#2426
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: Thomas B
Wow. Must have hit a nerve. Three replys from LCS to my single post......
Just commenting on what you posted. Note that I did not cast aspersions on any group of people, unlike the way your words clearly imply that you think clubs have some hidden evil agenda....
The word evil might be a bit over the top, but really no more inflammatory than the terminology used in your original post.
I and lots of the regulars in here are well aware of some of the issues you and others have had at the site in Tyler. I have been there a few times and i have heard about them from various sources besides you. No need to go over them again in here, as they have every thing to do with the personalities involved and nothing to do with the AMA.
I don't think that a model club that supports and maintains a flying field on public land is ''squatting'' on the property. A significant number of them pay leases, as does my club and others that I am aware of.
Requiring AMA membership on these public sites is one of the keys to providing proof of individual financial responsibility that the public trustees in charge of this land require for this specific use of it. The AMA did not invent our litigious society, but we do have to live and fly in it and the AMA does more to make that possible across the US than any non affiliated group of fliers does, doing their own thing in anonynimity.
My club has a track record of supporting community events and educational outreach related RC activities both at our field and at schools. I don't want to write a book about it any more than you do.
We know you love to jerk certain chains in here, but I occasionally like to present an alternative viewpoint to yours. Don't you think all sides deserve equal time?
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
Yet you judged me...
ORIGINAL: Thomas B
Personally, I prefer to have guilt proven and innocence assumed and not go around casting charges that may or may not be true in a given case.
Personally, I prefer to have guilt proven and innocence assumed and not go around casting charges that may or may not be true in a given case.
Just commenting on what you posted. Note that I did not cast aspersions on any group of people, unlike the way your words clearly imply that you think clubs have some hidden evil agenda....
The word evil might be a bit over the top, but really no more inflammatory than the terminology used in your original post. I and lots of the regulars in here are well aware of some of the issues you and others have had at the site in Tyler. I have been there a few times and i have heard about them from various sources besides you. No need to go over them again in here, as they have every thing to do with the personalities involved and nothing to do with the AMA.
I don't think that a model club that supports and maintains a flying field on public land is ''squatting'' on the property. A significant number of them pay leases, as does my club and others that I am aware of.
Requiring AMA membership on these public sites is one of the keys to providing proof of individual financial responsibility that the public trustees in charge of this land require for this specific use of it. The AMA did not invent our litigious society, but we do have to live and fly in it and the AMA does more to make that possible across the US than any non affiliated group of fliers does, doing their own thing in anonynimity.
My club has a track record of supporting community events and educational outreach related RC activities both at our field and at schools. I don't want to write a book about it any more than you do.
We know you love to jerk certain chains in here, but I occasionally like to present an alternative viewpoint to yours. Don't you think all sides deserve equal time?
AMA has enjoyed a very long perceived (perception is everything) standing benefit of member enrollment based on the ideology that "we must make people financially responsible for themselves" that clubs also use to great effect for requiring membership with them as well. It has been a (once again, perceived) symbiotic relationship for much too long IMO...Yes, my opinion... The actual results are quite different in practice in my opinion...and any other opinion is just that...and cannot be substantiated since comparative histories are not available. But I can say this; Since our club has made the effort to change the typical mindset previously installed by some other club's previous tactics, overall hobby enthusiasm has grown and more people than ever have entered the modeling community and AMA membership has also grown....
Now, if that old formula, most here embrace so religiously, is so effective why haven't those clubs that use that typical technique (AMA or the hi-way) grown likewise...since all the other variables are the same?
07-07-2013, 04:30 PM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: Thomas B
Wow. Must have hit a nerve. Three replys from LCS to my single post......
Wow. Must have hit a nerve. Three replys from LCS to my single post......
07-09-2013, 07:06 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
One of the best posts in this forum...it speaks volumes!
ORIGINAL: Mike in DC
I think Ed Dupaquier's letter makes a lot of good points.
To illustrate, I'd like to tell the story of my sorriest day in this hobby. I was out at the field flying, and there weren't too many other guys around. A mom pulls up with a very enthusiastic teen (14 or 15), his brother and a couple of friends. The kid loves model airplanes, and is the very proud owner of a Firebird or some foam electric plane that he's been saving up for months to buy. The mom, bless her heart, knows nothing, but has driven them 30 miles or something because the kids heard of our field and talked her into it with their enthusiasm. They came over to introduce themselves, and I'll never forgive myself for this, but I was new to the hobby, and didn't know any better, and I told the group I was very sorry, but rules were rules, and they couldn't fly here, due to no AMA card.
As they were all sadly piling back into the car, one of the more experienced club members came over to me and asked what that was all about. I told him, and he started yelling at me, ''You fool!'', and ran after the group, and said of course you can fly here, and spent 1/2 hour or so helping them get the plane into the air. The plane was really underpowered, but the kids didn't seem to mind and they had a ball until after many crashes it would no longer fly.
While I'm still greatful for that club member that saved me from the meanest thing I've ever done in my life, I still think the AMA set me up for it. There are all these warnings and signs about AMA membership (I don't like the ''license'' term either) being required, and I didn't seen any exceptions for enthusiastic kids with a harmless plane and the best Mom in the state.
All that said, I still don't know what the answer is. If the kids had done a slight amount of research, they should have seen the ''AMA required'' notices. The AMA has junior and trial memberships, but it's not really the money. Probably the kids should have just flown the plane in their local park, but I think they wanted to be a part of the bigger club experience. They wanted to hang out with others who shared their excitement, and on paper, our club seemed like a hospitable place.
Maybe just ''winking'' at the rules is the best approach, but not everybody is wise enough to do that (I wasn't). This is why Dupaquier's letter resonates with me. It just seems that maybe there could be some exception for tiny planes that really have zero chance of injuring anybody. Do you really need additional insurance to fly a plane that can barely stay up in the air?
I think Ed Dupaquier's letter makes a lot of good points.
To illustrate, I'd like to tell the story of my sorriest day in this hobby. I was out at the field flying, and there weren't too many other guys around. A mom pulls up with a very enthusiastic teen (14 or 15), his brother and a couple of friends. The kid loves model airplanes, and is the very proud owner of a Firebird or some foam electric plane that he's been saving up for months to buy. The mom, bless her heart, knows nothing, but has driven them 30 miles or something because the kids heard of our field and talked her into it with their enthusiasm. They came over to introduce themselves, and I'll never forgive myself for this, but I was new to the hobby, and didn't know any better, and I told the group I was very sorry, but rules were rules, and they couldn't fly here, due to no AMA card.
As they were all sadly piling back into the car, one of the more experienced club members came over to me and asked what that was all about. I told him, and he started yelling at me, ''You fool!'', and ran after the group, and said of course you can fly here, and spent 1/2 hour or so helping them get the plane into the air. The plane was really underpowered, but the kids didn't seem to mind and they had a ball until after many crashes it would no longer fly.
While I'm still greatful for that club member that saved me from the meanest thing I've ever done in my life, I still think the AMA set me up for it. There are all these warnings and signs about AMA membership (I don't like the ''license'' term either) being required, and I didn't seen any exceptions for enthusiastic kids with a harmless plane and the best Mom in the state.
All that said, I still don't know what the answer is. If the kids had done a slight amount of research, they should have seen the ''AMA required'' notices. The AMA has junior and trial memberships, but it's not really the money. Probably the kids should have just flown the plane in their local park, but I think they wanted to be a part of the bigger club experience. They wanted to hang out with others who shared their excitement, and on paper, our club seemed like a hospitable place.
Maybe just ''winking'' at the rules is the best approach, but not everybody is wise enough to do that (I wasn't). This is why Dupaquier's letter resonates with me. It just seems that maybe there could be some exception for tiny planes that really have zero chance of injuring anybody. Do you really need additional insurance to fly a plane that can barely stay up in the air?
07-10-2013, 05:14 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
According to the letter, he was enforcing a club rule rather than an AMA rule. So quick to point the finger and try to make the AMA out to be evil. The AMA cannot force anyone to forbid non AMA flyers to fly at their site. Only the landowner can do that.
07-10-2013, 06:13 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: K-Bob
According to the letter, he was enforcing a club rule rather than an AMA rule. So quick to point the finger and try to make the AMA out to be evil. The AMA cannot force anyone to forbid non AMA flyers to fly at their site. Only the landowner can do that.
According to the letter, he was enforcing a club rule rather than an AMA rule. So quick to point the finger and try to make the AMA out to be evil. The AMA cannot force anyone to forbid non AMA flyers to fly at their site. Only the landowner can do that.
I am still left wondering where the evil AMA clubs and the evil AMA members generally get the perception that they can only allow AMA members to fly at their flying sites... despite all the contrary information the AMA broadcasts...how does that happen??? hmmm...
HMMM... maybe someone will chime in and point the blame to the evil land owners for having such perceptions...but at least we know its not the holy AMA now.
07-10-2013, 06:39 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
have club rules and that is that do u belonto a club>> or are you just trrying to get some people upset>>> me u get a [ama] card or you dont fly come to ccalifornia and try it
07-10-2013, 06:46 AM
#2434
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: [email protected]
have club rules and that is that do u belonto a club>> or are you just trrying to get some people upset>>> me u get a [ama] card or you dont fly come to ccalifornia and try it
have club rules and that is that do u belonto a club>> or are you just trrying to get some people upset>>> me u get a [ama] card or you dont fly come to ccalifornia and try it
07-10-2013, 08:17 AM
#2435
RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
SNIP
I am still left wondering where the evil AMA clubs and the evil AMA members generally get the perception that they can only allow AMA members to fly at their flying sites... despite all the contrary information the AMA broadcasts...how does that happen??? hmmm...
SNIP
I am still left wondering where the evil AMA clubs and the evil AMA members generally get the perception that they can only allow AMA members to fly at their flying sites... despite all the contrary information the AMA broadcasts...how does that happen??? hmmm...
Some starters are:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/915.pdf
2011 AMA Club Charter Kit - Academy of Model Aeronautics
http://www.modelaircraft.org/gcsearc...%3Ax74l6itvxzc
Yes, there are in those areas reference to AMA Bylaws which require that all members of the Chartered Club MUST belong to AMA. Now I am not going to
provide additional references. One like you should well be able to jump on those referemces within a few seconds. After all you profess to know differently than actual so go to it! THEN YOU WILL NO LONGER HAVE TO WONDER. YOU WILL KNOW THE REALITIES OF THE SUBJECT. You may not be happy, but you may at least have some
TRUE knowledge. Be forewarned that such knowledge may make you unhappy!
Best you protect your eyes as being in the dark so long can create eye problems when the lights are suddenly turned on. Have a GREAT DAY! 
By the WAY: More and nore Clubs are becoming Land-Owners as time goes by. Here in my area, there are a number of Chartered Clubs that OWN their land and others have strong LEASES that say, ALL AMA or no-way!. In addition public fields also require AMA membership and Site-Owner insurance. It was in Chicago area when I lived there and is also required in this Harris County, TX. It's just a way of life!
07-10-2013, 08:27 AM
#2436
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
Hmmm...now Hoss points to AMA...Wish you guys would make up your minds...But I guess constantly moving the goal post does have an effect on points...LOL
07-10-2013, 09:50 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: Hossfly
Just maybe, LCS, that there are folks in this model aircraft sport that learn the rules of the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) in AMA's efforts to provide the insurance program available to the AMA membership.
Some starters are:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/915.pdf
2011 AMA Club Charter Kit - Academy of Model Aeronautics
http://www.modelaircraft.org/gcsearc...%3Ax74l6itvxzc
Yes, there are in those areas reference to AMA Bylaws which require that all members of the Chartered Club MUST belong to AMA. (snipped)
Just maybe, LCS, that there are folks in this model aircraft sport that learn the rules of the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) in AMA's efforts to provide the insurance program available to the AMA membership.
Some starters are:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/915.pdf
2011 AMA Club Charter Kit - Academy of Model Aeronautics
http://www.modelaircraft.org/gcsearc...%3Ax74l6itvxzc
Yes, there are in those areas reference to AMA Bylaws which require that all members of the Chartered Club MUST belong to AMA. (snipped)
Good answer, but wrong question.
LCS was addressing "they (AMA clubs) can only allow AMA members to fly at their flying sites," not whether only AMA members can belong to chartered clubs.
As to his topic, someone reported asking former AMA prexy Don Lowe why only AMA members are allowed to fly at chartered club sites and the reply he got was "because the insurance company requires it."
I've seen many rationalizations as to the "why" of this exclusionary policy. This one is as good as any, and deference to some mythical higher authority is a common, effective way of dodging responsibility. The insurance company sells what AMA asks to buy - and for the most part AMA is the insurance underwriter.
Let's call a spade a spade - requiring clubs to exclude non-members of AMA is the essential revenue generator in AMA's business plan. Why all the denial about that?
07-10-2013, 10:06 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
what do the guys who dont want [ama[ insurANCE DO FOR CAR INSURANCE WHAT DO THE PEOPLE DO AT A FLYING FIELD WHEN THEY DONT BELONG TO THE[AMA] COME TO MY FIELD ANY TROUBLE AND THE POLICE WILL SHOW YOU THE WAY OUT
07-10-2013, 10:45 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: cj_rumley
Why all the denial about that?
Why all the denial about that?
07-10-2013, 10:49 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: [email protected]
what do the guys who dont want [ama[ insurANCE DO FOR CAR INSURANCE WHAT DO THE PEOPLE DO AT A FLYING FIELD WHEN THEY DONT BELONG TO THE[AMA] COME TO MY FIELD ANY TROUBLE AND THE POLICE WILL SHOW YOU THE WAY OUT
what do the guys who dont want [ama[ insurANCE DO FOR CAR INSURANCE WHAT DO THE PEOPLE DO AT A FLYING FIELD WHEN THEY DONT BELONG TO THE[AMA] COME TO MY FIELD ANY TROUBLE AND THE POLICE WILL SHOW YOU THE WAY OUT
God Help Us
07-10-2013, 10:53 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: [email protected]
what do the guys who dont want [ama[ insurANCE DO FOR CAR INSURANCE WHAT DO THE PEOPLE DO AT A FLYING FIELD WHEN THEY DONT BELONG TO THE[AMA] COME TO MY FIELD ANY TROUBLE AND THE POLICE WILL SHOW YOU THE WAY OUT
what do the guys who dont want [ama[ insurANCE DO FOR CAR INSURANCE WHAT DO THE PEOPLE DO AT A FLYING FIELD WHEN THEY DONT BELONG TO THE[AMA] COME TO MY FIELD ANY TROUBLE AND THE POLICE WILL SHOW YOU THE WAY OUT
Why would not wanting AMA matter to anyone that needs car insurance?
07-10-2013, 10:54 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: [email protected]
i think you are out to see how much crap you can get going are you this way with everything>>
i think you are out to see how much crap you can get going are you this way with everything>>
07-10-2013, 10:57 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: [email protected]
i think you are out to see how much crap you can get going are you this way with everything>>
i think you are out to see how much crap you can get going are you this way with everything>>
07-10-2013, 11:13 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: oliveDrab
I was just browsing through forums looking for something interesting and I came across this thread. And littlecrankshaf.............you've got way too many posts with too much crap! Just my 2 cents and who cares what I think. I'll go find another thread. buh-BYE.
ORIGINAL: [email protected]
i think you are out to see how much crap you can get going are you this way with everything>>
i think you are out to see how much crap you can get going are you this way with everything>>
07-10-2013, 11:14 AM
#2446
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: J_R
Difficult to do considering the cost of the mag is somewhere around $8 per member. On the other hand, I gues the rest of us could make up the difference by paying more for our dues.
ORIGINAL: combatpigg
I wonder what would happen if the AMA offered a ''rag free'' membership? $24 a year for a card and no magazine? I like it.
I wonder what would happen if the AMA offered a ''rag free'' membership? $24 a year for a card and no magazine? I like it.
07-10-2013, 11:37 AM
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf
Hey, I still see you watching this thread LOL... Got any real input or just coming in here to take a swing at me?
ORIGINAL: oliveDrab
I was just browsing through forums looking for something interesting and I came across this thread. And littlecrankshaf.............you've got way too many posts with too much crap! Just my 2 cents and who cares what I think. I'll go find another thread. buh-BYE.
ORIGINAL: [email protected]
i think you are out to see how much crap you can get going are you this way with everything>>
i think you are out to see how much crap you can get going are you this way with everything>>
I'm just coming here to take a swing at you because you deserve it. Maybe you should consider making your posts more constructive and less combative. You sound like you're on drugs. Take a deep breath, slow down, relax..........ommmmmmmmmmm
You're from Tyler, Texas. Go smell some roses and calm down.
I'll kick myself off this thread now since I have no real input.
07-10-2013, 11:38 AM
#2448
RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: [email protected]
what do the guys who dont want [ama[ insurANCE DO FOR CAR INSURANCE WHAT DO THE PEOPLE DO AT A FLYING FIELD WHEN THEY DONT BELONG TO THE[AMA] COME TO MY FIELD ANY TROUBLE AND THE POLICE WILL SHOW YOU THE WAY OUT
what do the guys who dont want [ama[ insurANCE DO FOR CAR INSURANCE WHAT DO THE PEOPLE DO AT A FLYING FIELD WHEN THEY DONT BELONG TO THE[AMA] COME TO MY FIELD ANY TROUBLE AND THE POLICE WILL SHOW YOU THE WAY OUT
07-10-2013, 11:50 AM
#2449
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
ORIGINAL: oliveDrab
Maybe you should consider making your posts more constructive and less combative.
Maybe you should consider making your posts more constructive and less combative.
Get rreeeaaddy...Dial 911 everyone... "He's got a 10oz foamy and he is breaking the law...hurry, hurry, hurry... I got to leave... I'm so scared!!!"
07-10-2013, 12:22 PM
#2450
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RE: Why the AMA is not growing...........
I've been to Christoval, TX a number of times in years gone by. I've fished in the beautiful San Saba River there.
There are flying fields where the field owner restricts use to individuals with an AMA license and a field Flying Permit.
It does seem to me that the AMA ought to offer a reasonable priced "trial membership". I think there are some folks who do not go into model flying as AMA members because of the upfront costs as it now stands. I presume we all have some concern that a model flier will do something stupid and dangerous which results in our ability to fly being restricted. I think an AMA member is less likely to be the perpatrator than a non AMA member. That is one reason I would like to see an easier path to AMA membership.
There are flying fields where the field owner restricts use to individuals with an AMA license and a field Flying Permit.
It does seem to me that the AMA ought to offer a reasonable priced "trial membership". I think there are some folks who do not go into model flying as AMA members because of the upfront costs as it now stands. I presume we all have some concern that a model flier will do something stupid and dangerous which results in our ability to fly being restricted. I think an AMA member is less likely to be the perpatrator than a non AMA member. That is one reason I would like to see an easier path to AMA membership.