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Old 07-14-2013, 06:21 AM
  #151  
jfetter
 
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.

Two points;

1.) Most people will keep their fingers far from a spinning prop but we're talking about an ELECTRIC with an armed "but-not-spinning" prop. The entire point of this thread IMO, and likely something we all understand as many (if not all) of us have been surprised by an electric prop starting when not ready, either by accident or being careless. The point again, ELECTRICS ARE CAPABLE OF HARM WHEN WHEN THE PROP IS IN THE "STOPPED" POSITION THAT MOST "COMMON SENSE PEOPLE" ASSUME IS SAFE.

2.) Guns and toy planes are nothing alike IMO and comparing rules at a flying field to your constitutionally protected right is a stretch to say the least, so relax, "the man" isn't coming for your LiPo's and that argument is already quite tedious when made in relation to guns...

Jack
Old 07-14-2013, 06:32 AM
  #152  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: init4fun

ORIGINAL: Luchnia

In my meagerly opinion safety cannot be enforced and must be taught. The same clown that sticks his hands into moving lawnmower blades or a spinning chainsaw chain is bound to hurt himself in some way sooner or later unless he is taught and heeds his teaching. He/she is simply ignorant and needs to be educated about the dangers of moving objects.

[] With all due respect , I strongly disagree with this notion .

If good ol fashioned common horse sense don't tell a guy to keep his fingers , toes , and other dangly bits outta the prop , , , aint NO amount of haranguing bout safety gonna keep that guy from gettin bit !!!

Do you REALLY mean to tell me that a nice big red/orange warning sign plastered on every corner of a lawnmower is what's needed to keep folks fingers outta the blades ? And not the god given brains that we ALL posses that KNOW what a 3600 RPM 21'' lawnmower blade will do to hands on contact ???

I somewhere saw a cute little sign that went something to the effect of ;

'' Wanna rid the world of stupid people ? Remove ALL the warning labels and let the problem solve itself ''

[8D] Maybe , just maybe , the idea actually does have merit

I guess some folks really have no clue why messages like those appear on all kind of things... Like "Objest might apperar closer (or further) than what they seem.

In all cases

1) some idiot got hurt
2) he sued themanufacturer
3) the manufacturer has to cover his arse (well, a bit deeper than that. They want to curt down unnecessary legal expenses)

Now you know

Coming back from Nice last summer we landed in NY and boarded a small turbo prop to go to Philadelphia. The lady warned us while boarding that we had emergency exit seats. The stewardess came over and explained us the ropes in case of ditching. Well, while waiting I noticed a sign in English under the window, and below SAME MESSAGE IN BRAILLE! That really cracked us up! Just imagine, you would only put blind folks on that row if every passenger is blind... I have the picture somewhere. It made the long wait to take off a bit more amusing...

So, granted, some might be stupid messages, but they are there for a practical reason. One can NEVER underestimate the idiocy of the user.

I remember one person's lawsuit because he placed the extension chord around his neck, plugged the extension chor into the outlet, and walked towards the electric lawnmower. Well, he did not have enough "free" chord, you can imagine the rest... Fell backwards with the chord pulling from his neck, got hurt, sued.

Gerry






Old 07-14-2013, 06:38 AM
  #153  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: wjvail

Absolutely agreed. An electic motor can begin spinning.. and cutting. But, I take armed planes to the pits every time I fly. I arm them in my garage. I arm them on my car. I arm them in my house and then chuck the plane on the golf course behind my house. I've got a quad copter I fly in my house.
It's only a matter of time.

Old 07-14-2013, 06:51 AM
  #154  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.

I ge a charge out of the saying "They are going to have to pry those guns out of my cold dead hands"
In the old west where there were no laws and enforcement that was a common procedure.

Rules are not to protect one from ones self primarily, They are to protect others from the unknowable or the idiots
Old 07-14-2013, 07:20 AM
  #155  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: oliveDrab


ORIGINAL: wjvail

Absolutely agreed. An electic motor can begin spinning.. and cutting. But, I take armed planes to the pits every time I fly. I arm them in my garage. I arm them on my car. I arm them in my house and then chuck the plane on the golf course behind my house. I've got a quad copter I fly in my house.
It's only a matter of time.


I agree, someone is going to get hurt.
Old 07-14-2013, 08:19 AM
  #156  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.

It's only a matter of time.
How long? How much time?

It's been 45 year of working with propellers....

What about some or all of these club rules?
- You can't put the prop on the plane until you're at the flight line.
- You can't put the battery in the plane until you're ready to throttle up.
- Battery and prop must be removed before returning to the pits.
- Establish an electric safety class to be attended by all e-fliers. Multi-media with PowerPoint of about 2 hours would be a starting point. Training is key. More is better.
- Recurrent training on a 9 month basis - 6 months after initial qual.
- E-flier safety review by senior club members on annual basis for overall safety and renewal of e-privileges.
- All flight line and pit operations require a 2nd club member as a safety observer.
- All safety violations and aircraft mishaps would require an immediate revocation of privileges until causal factors could be reviewed.
- Consider filming pit operations for review of procedures and possible recommendation for further safety improvements.

Do you not agree that these measures would clearly improve safety not only for fliers but club members and bystanders? Be careful how you answer. They are all well established safety protocol in other fields and as Jack notes in the below quote, you might be a jack***** for failing to adopt them....


... stop for a second and imagine if you did, and it was all because you were too stupid, proud, egotistical, lazy, stubborn or whatever other excuse you make, would you feel proud because you never gave in to taking a mere 30 seconds to be safe or like a total stubborn jack*****?
Old 07-14-2013, 09:21 AM
  #157  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: dirtybird

In the old west where there were no laws and enforcement that was a common procedure.
Now there are immense volumes of laws and little enforcement.

jess
Old 07-14-2013, 11:54 AM
  #158  
049flyer
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.

Sadly there are some of us that would love to see those rules implemented at their field.
Old 07-14-2013, 02:10 PM
  #159  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: joebahl


Wth your first electrict plane ,welcome to the dark side .
Hmmm... I always thought helicopters were "the dark side".

At least, that's what all the old farts said back when I was flying helos.

Now that I AM an old fart (and haven't touched a helo in over five years), I'm getting good-natured grief from the scale guys at my club over my foray into e-power.

Of course, as far as these guys are concerned, if it isn't a scale model of a WW II airplane, with a two-ton-per-square-inch wing loading and sometimes-functioning retracts, it ain't a real model airplane...

.
Old 07-14-2013, 02:40 PM
  #160  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: LSP972


ORIGINAL: joebahl


Wth your first electrict plane ,welcome to the dark side .
Hmmm... I always thought helicopters were ''the dark side''.

At least, that's what all the old farts said back when I was flying helos.

Now that I AM an old fart (and haven't touched a helo in over five years), I'm getting good-natured grief from the scale guys at my club over my foray into e-power.

Of course, as far as these guys are concerned, if it isn't a scale model of a WW II airplane, with a two-ton-per-square-inch wing loading and sometimes-functioning retracts, it ain't a real model airplane...

.

I like this one for scale [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE-S4fUAgK4[/youtube]
Old 07-14-2013, 02:48 PM
  #161  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.

It's there those that will never think U need rules or laws.  Bet these guys are the same ones that Drink and drive.

Old 07-14-2013, 04:32 PM
  #162  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.

It's a serious issue and I personally object to having to make (and enforce) rules which should be common sense, but understand in some cases it may have to be done.

It just seems that people growing up wrapped in cotton wool haven't had the chance to slightly hurt themselves enough times to develop common sense before being let loose on really dangerous equipment that can cause real injury to themselves and others. The flip side of this are older generations that simply don't understand the potential failure modes that can occur with modern technology.

A rules of "no connecting of batteries in the pits", should be as redundant as a rule stating "No sticking of body parts into a moving propellor".

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Old 07-14-2013, 05:13 PM
  #163  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.

So if I have the arming plug out even though the batteries are plugged in to the connector they are not plugged into the ESC or receiver. The 12S battery pack is buried inside the plane the arming plug is under a small hatch and is plugged in at start stations same as starting a combustion engine. After the flight I stop in the same place as the regular combustion engines and remove the arming plug disabling the whole thing. It is not necessary to remove batteries or props which is an idiotic proposal in the first place when there are much more reasonable ways to accomplish what you are after.

You spend enough time educating new members on the safe care and feeding of the internal combustion model but don’t have the intellectual ability to come up with a system that makes it easy for the electric flyer to enjoy the club. Sounds to me that you should just ban electrics all together.

Arming plug removed at all times in the pits. Insert and connect battery pack.
Take the model to the start line when ready to fly insert the arming plug taxi out and fly.
On landing taxi to shut down point remove the arming plug disabling the model turn radio off head for pits.

It is no different for a combustion engine model.

Fuel in the pits. Check battery pack for capacity.
Take model to start line start engine proceed to taxi out and fly.
On landing taxi to shut down point and shut engine down. Turn off receiver and radio head for the pits.

Removeing the prop from the engine every flight how long do you think the expensive spinner, screws and prop nuts are going to last. Ignorant nitwits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ig•no•rant [ig-ner-uhnt] adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact:
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

nit•wit /nit-wit/ noun A silly or foolish person.
Old 07-14-2013, 05:52 PM
  #164  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: wjvail

What about some or all of these club rules?
- You can't put the prop on the plane until you're at the flight line.
- You can't put the battery in the plane until you're ready to throttle up.
- Battery and prop must be removed before returning to the pits.
- Establish an electric safety class to be attended by all e-fliers. Multi-media with PowerPoint of about 2 hours would be a starting point. Training is key. More is better.
- Recurrent training on a 9 month basis - 6 months after initial qual.
- E-flier safety review by senior club members on annual basis for overall safety and renewal of e-privileges.
- All flight line and pit operations require a 2nd club member as a safety observer.
- All safety violations and aircraft mishaps would require an immediate revocation of privileges until causal factors could be reviewed.
- Consider filming pit operations for review of procedures and possible recommendation for further safety improvements.
If these are actual rules adopted at actual clubs and not just tongue-in-cheek then it's dissappointing that conditions have existed that some have felt it necessary.

It's like workplace health and safety, I'm finding the phrase "As low as reasonably practical" a moving goalpost to be renegotiated whenever we have a change in OH&S staff. Very rarely do I get any "ground" back but I do my best to minimise how much ground I have to give up.

Good staff, properly trained with the correct tools and enough time to do the job is far safer than a fool with a risk assement in one hand and a rush job to be completed in the other...
Old 07-14-2013, 05:54 PM
  #165  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: wjvail

It's only a matter of time.
How long? How much time?

It's been 45 year of working with propellers....

What about some or all of these club rules?
- You can't put the prop on the plane until you're at the flight line.
- You can't put the battery in the plane until you're ready to throttle up.
- Battery and prop must be removed before returning to the pits.
- Establish an electric safety class to be attended by all e-fliers. Multi-media with PowerPoint of about 2 hours would be a starting point. Training is key. More is better.
- Recurrent training on a 9 month basis - 6 months after initial qual.
- E-flier safety review by senior club members on annual basis for overall safety and renewal of e-privileges.
- All flight line and pit operations require a 2nd club member as a safety observer.
- All safety violations and aircraft mishaps would require an immediate revocation of privileges until causal factors could be reviewed.
- Consider filming pit operations for review of procedures and possible recommendation for further safety improvements.

Do you not agree that these measures would clearly improve safety not only for fliers but club members and bystanders? Be careful how you answer. They are all well established safety protocol in other fields and as Jack notes in the below quote, you might be a jack***** for failing to adopt them....


... stop for a second and imagine if you did, and it was all because you were too stupid, proud, egotistical, lazy, stubborn or whatever other excuse you make, would you feel proud because you never gave in to taking a mere 30 seconds to be safe or like a total stubborn jack*****?
These are absolutely ridiculous, preposterous and absurd rules. I better buy a park flyer and go fly at the school parking lot.This is a hobby to have fun and try to get your mind off the stresses of your daily life. So many rules is only going to make the hobby not fun at all.
Old 07-14-2013, 07:12 PM
  #166  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.

These are absolutely ridiculous, preposterous and absurd rules. I better buy a park flyer and go fly at the school parking lot.This is a hobby to have fun and try to get your mind off the stresses of your daily life. So many rules is only going to make the hobby not fun at all.
You are completely correct; however, you do realize my suggested rules were sarcasm in response to being called a jack***** for disagreeing with others rules, right? Please reread a few of my other comments on this thread.



Arming plug removed at all times in the pits. Insert and connect battery pack.
Take the model to the start line when ready to fly insert the arming plug taxi out and fly.
On landing taxi to shut down point remove the arming plug disabling the model turn radio off head for pits.
Nice rules but my plane doesn't have an arming plug. Nor will it. What now?
Old 07-15-2013, 12:33 AM
  #167  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.

ORIGINAL: wjvail

Nice rules but my plane doesn't have an arming plug. Nor will it. What now?
Not picking on you specifically, but as long as fliers employ a system that allows them to acheive a similiar level of safety with similiar convenience of an arming plug (so they'ed actually use their system) then let them use what they want.

It's when you see fliers messing about with their planes with batteries plugged in and the ESC just waiting for the right signal to fire things up is when I start to cringe. The good 'ol "TX is off so it can't start up" way of thinking scares me. Yep, it's probably true 99.99% of the time but is it a necessary risk worth taking? I'd be surprised if sombody ever would leave an IC plane unattended and running in the pits, even if the TX was off and the failsafe set to "idle" but some haven't a 2nd thought about leaving an electric unattended with the batteries plugged in.

Oh,, no external arming plug = no international F3A competition for you
Old 07-15-2013, 03:28 AM
  #168  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz

ORIGINAL: wjvail

Nice rules but my plane doesn't have an arming plug. Nor will it. What now?
Not picking on you specifically, but as long as fliers employ a system that allows them to acheive a similiar level of safety with similiar convenience of an arming plug (so they'ed actually use their system) then let them use what they want.

It's when you see fliers messing about with their planes with batteries plugged in and the ESC just waiting for the right signal to fire things up is when I start to cringe. The good 'ol "TX is off so it can't start up" way of thinking scares me. Yep, it's probably true 99.99% of the time but is it a necessary risk worth taking? I'd be surprised if sombody ever would leave an IC plane unattended and running in the pits, even if the TX was off and the failsafe set to "idle" but some haven't a 2nd thought about leaving an electric unattended with the batteries plugged in.

Oh,, no external arming plug = no international F3A competition for you
One of our absent minded poorly informed or what ever Heli flyers brought his very expensive chopper back to the pits with out disconnecting the batteries and proceeded to shut off the radio. Well that Heli jumped about a foot off the table under the sun shade and fell to the concrete and proceeded to trash it's self to death. He was lucky because in his haste to get away from his errant piece of now Junk, flopping around like a flonder, he almost dropped expensive heli radio. Crap should not happen, RULES are made for your and everyone's safety.
Unless U are a club officer or one of the Good O'l Boys. But that's a discussion for another Forum.
Old 07-15-2013, 03:51 AM
  #169  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: lopflyers


ORIGINAL: wjvail

It's only a matter of time.
How long? How much time?

It's been 45 year of working with propellers....

What about some or all of these club rules?
- You can't put the prop on the plane until you're at the flight line.
- You can't put the battery in the plane until you're ready to throttle up.
- Battery and prop must be removed before returning to the pits.
- Establish an electric safety class to be attended by all e-fliers. Multi-media with PowerPoint of about 2 hours would be a starting point. Training is key. More is better.
- Recurrent training on a 9 month basis - 6 months after initial qual.
- E-flier safety review by senior club members on annual basis for overall safety and renewal of e-privileges.
- All flight line and pit operations require a 2nd club member as a safety observer.
- All safety violations and aircraft mishaps would require an immediate revocation of privileges until causal factors could be reviewed.
- Consider filming pit operations for review of procedures and possible recommendation for further safety improvements.

Do you not agree that these measures would clearly improve safety not only for fliers but club members and bystanders? Be careful how you answer. They are all well established safety protocol in other fields and as Jack notes in the below quote, you might be a jack***** for failing to adopt them....


... stop for a second and imagine if you did, and it was all because you were too stupid, proud, egotistical, lazy, stubborn or whatever other excuse you make, would you feel proud because you never gave in to taking a mere 30 seconds to be safe or like a total stubborn jack*****?
These are absolutely ridiculous, preposterous and absurd rules. I better buy a park flyer and go fly at the school parking lot.This is a hobby to have fun and try to get your mind off the stresses of your daily life. So many rules is only going to make the hobby not fun at all.
VS you flying at the local school parking lot or me and mine getting hurt in the pitts its easy choice ,have fun at the school .
Old 07-15-2013, 04:35 AM
  #170  
joebahl
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: wjvail

These are absolutely ridiculous, preposterous and absurd rules. I better buy a park flyer and go fly at the school parking lot.This is a hobby to have fun and try to get your mind off the stresses of your daily life. So many rules is only going to make the hobby not fun at all.
You are completely correct; however, you do realize my suggested rules were sarcasm in response to being called a jack***** for disagreeing with others rules, right? Please reread a few of my other comments on this thread.



Arming plug removed at all times in the pits. Insert and connect battery pack.
Take the model to the start line when ready to fly insert the arming plug taxi out and fly.
On landing taxi to shut down point remove the arming plug disabling the model turn radio off head for pits.
Nice rules but my plane doesn't have an arming plug. Nor will it. What now?
When it comes to safety by adding a 10 dollar plug that might save someones fingers or toes and you argure over it i think jack***** would be the correct name for them. You said it not me. joe
Old 07-15-2013, 01:37 PM
  #171  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.


ORIGINAL: HoundDog

One of our absent minded poorly informed or what ever Heli flyers brought his very expensive chopper back to the pits with out disconnecting the batteries and proceeded to shut off the radio. Well that Heli jumped about a foot off the table under the sun shade and fell to the concrete and proceeded to trash it's self to death. He was lucky because in his haste to get away from his errant piece of now Junk, flopping around like a flonder, he almost dropped expensive heli radio. Crap should not happen, RULES are made for your and everyone's safety.
Absent mindedness isn't just restricted to the electric folk though, a heli pilot in our club was blade tracking his nitro in the taxiway (while others were flying). We're a fairly relaxed club but things don't go un-noticed, he landed, got down on his belly and spun it at zero pitch, then changed the condition (??) and up like a rocket it went with him still laying on the ground. It was already reasonably well trimmed so it didn't go sideways much as it went up before he killed the power and dumped it a bit down the paddock.

I have heard of an Oxai F3A ship destroying itself against a clubhouse when the TX was turned off because the failsafe wasn't set correctly. ~3kW into a 22" diameter electric prop [X(]

The key is, any safety system employed needs to be simple and easy to use so that it will be used. TBH, carrying a heli back to the pits with the batteries still connected is lazyness and poor practice, it should only take 5-10 sec to pull the power before picking it up and walking back.
Old 07-18-2013, 10:23 PM
  #172  
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Default RE: Electric Planes at our field.




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