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FEJ Hawk

Old 07-16-2013, 12:33 PM
  #26  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk

William, you're arguing about whether you have the right to purchase "junk". Of course you do but, my question is:
Why would you knowingly purchase junk? To you this is junk and that is an opinion based on sound logic I understand. FEJ has had too many crashes and too many issues which diminish the perceived value of their product. It is easier for me to fix the problems I have with FEJ kits than to explain the cost of the BVM. That’s why Toyota out sells Mercedes. As I said before, I ask FEJ to add or remove things that I see as incorrect, and I avoid aircraft that do not appear to be designed correctly.
Do you think yours will be the one that doesn't break? No, but I do think I have the knowledge to review what they are selling me and correct the issues for far less than what others might charge. Presuming someone else makes what I want.
Or the one that comes with all the parts? Of the 5 FEJ kits that I have built I have had few if any missing parts. I have had warped parts from pulling from the mold too soon. I am not worried about this as they have always responded to my request in a timely manner.
Or maybe you'll be the guy who gets a response from the company when he has a problem? I do get responses when I find things I don’t like. I also treat them with respect both professionally and culturally. Something that is sorely lacking by many on RCU.
Is this what you are thinking? I really don’t care if anyone buys from FEJ or any other manufacturer. What I am sick of is the constant badgering and belittling of each other because someone chooses to follow their own desire. I applaud those who stand up and identify issues along with recommendations for improvements. And I despise those with no other agenda than to stereotype cultures, stir the hate pot, and stand on their stool of self-proclaimed righteousness while lacking the ability to do better.
The focus should be on making FEJ, Skymaster, BVM, and all manufacturers provide us with high quality, reasonably priced airframes.


I think that's what perplexes most of us here. No one is saying you can't buy an FEJ jet if you want but, most are trying to understand why you would choose to do so, given what's known about the company. Because they respect my request, modify things that I don’t like, provide a pretty finish that I can’t do, and all for an affordable price. I know at the start changes will be necessary. However, if I knew nothing about aircraft design, correct material usage, or proper aircraft rigging, I would go with a proven design that has already been tested, a used BVM.
Old 07-16-2013, 01:05 PM
  #27  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk


ORIGINAL: gjhinshaw

Its not Junk!! Its what you make of it! I take my time putting a jet together! I insure that glue is here and there and if it doesn't look right I change it. We all or most of us just don't throw a jet together and go fly.... Maybe the new babies do because they take everything for granted and what everything handed to them!!! NO jet factory is prone to not crashing or building a jet that doesn't need something! If you say there is, Than you need to take a closer look OR we need to take a closer look at what you are flying!!! AGAIN, ITS NOT JUNK TO US WHO FLY THEM!!!! This thread is like ALL the others on FEJ... What you get is ALL haters bashing everyone and every thing!!!! YOU, don't care what you do to the jet community its just for your gratification for a few minutes! Its pretty sad for anyone to get on the forms anymore to see grown up guys bashing each other and bashing dealers, reps, and flyers... Yet you keep on and on to NO END!! We live in a sad world these days!!!
Ok, lets say the product is not junk. Lets leave the quality issues aside. Can you say that their customer service is not junk?

You seem to get along with them just fine, have you ever questioned them on their poor customer service/lack of communication? Have they answered? Do they even care what customers think?

I agree with what you say regarding any model can crash, but the difference is customer service after the crash. As long as FEJ keeps beating on customers, I would expect more of the same.

perhaps reps like yourself can make a difference by getting together and stop promoting FEJ until they make ammends. FEJ was able to resurface in the past, they were on the way............then models started breaking in the air, an they show no regrets. Help them help you. They are not doing you any favors.

David

Old 07-16-2013, 01:10 PM
  #28  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk


ORIGINAL: gjhinshaw

Its not Junk!! Its what you make of it! I take my time putting a jet together! I insure that glue is here and there and if it doesn't look right I change it. We all or most of us just don't throw a jet together and go fly.... Maybe the new babies do because they take everything for granted and what everything handed to them!!! NO jet factory is prone to not crashing or building a jet that doesn't need something! If you say there is, Than you need to take a closer look OR we need to take a closer look at what you are flying!!! AGAIN, ITS NOT JUNK TO US WHO FLY THEM!!!! This thread is like ALL the others on FEJ... What you get is ALL haters bashing everyone and every thing!!!! YOU, don't care what you do to the jet community its just for your gratification for a few minutes! Its pretty sad for anyone to get on the forms anymore to see grown up guys bashing each other and bashing dealers, reps, and flyers... Yet you keep on and on to NO END!! We live in a sad world these days!!!
Have you seen this post? [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11553424]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11553424[/link]

Jim did an *excellent* job in getting his FEJ F-14 ready to fly and it is *right*! Having to completely take apart and re-build a stab pivot like Jim did is *way* above-and-beyond what someone should have to do for an ARF and is not what someone would even think to do had another person not lost and entire aircraft and yet another one actually x-rayed a stab to see what was in there...

Bob
Old 07-16-2013, 01:17 PM
  #29  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk


ORIGINAL: foster4u

[snip]

Because they respect my request, modify things that I don’t like, provide a pretty finish that I can’t do, and all for an affordable price. I know at the start changes will be necessary. However, if I knew nothing about aircraft design, correct material usage, or proper aircraft rigging, I would go with a proven design that has already been tested, a used BVM.
That's the issue that still is a problem for me - they actually did *not* modify any of the things that were wrong with the airplanes I bought from them when I asked them to. The line I always got was "factory says no." Now eventually they did, from what I hear, start making better air cylinders, start using carbon fiber in they layups, and go to more of an "aircraft ply" vs. "lite ply" former material (before they went to "honeycomb"), but that didn't do anything to solve the problems I had with *my* planes that I had already bought...

Bob
Old 07-16-2013, 02:00 PM
  #30  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk

Bob,
I asked for specific changes prior to agreeing to order the aircraft. If they would have said no then I would not have agreed to make the purchase. I typically do not stress the little things like leaking cylinders and brittle hinges as I can repair or replace them cheaper than they can do this for me. I do understand that there is no free ride but rebuilding these relatively inexpensive (ARF like) aircraft is cheaper and easier than building a more expensive jet kit. I do not have the patience or skills to paint the way I would like to.
My manual starts with:
Step 1 – Disassemble aircraft
Step 2 – Evaluate structure
Step 3 – Repair or replace components
Step 4 – Start building…
Funny thing is that this is the same process I use on all ARF’s, aircraft bought used, and kits. Currently in work are two hotspots, two FB Hawks, one FEJ F-4 which is my hangar queen as I just haven’t finished with all of the things I want to do to it. And the FEJ A-7 waiting for me to make final payment and take delivery.
Stay on them about getting the things you need and enjoy the hobby.

Old 07-16-2013, 02:31 PM
  #31  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk



Ok, lets say the product is not junk. Lets leave the quality issues aside. Can you say that their customer service is not junk?



  No its not, I email them or call them with no issues. Talk in a professional manor and that's what you get back. Be stupid, except no answer from them!

You seem to get along with them just fine, have you ever questioned them on their poor customer service/lack of communication? Have they answered? Do they even care what customers think? 



Yes, and YES I care what the customer thinks!  I have told them many times about CS and they reply that, They will NOT get involved with a person that is belligerent, cussing, and hateful to them!

I agree with what you say regarding any model can crash, but the difference is customer service after the crash. As long as FEJ keeps beating on customers, I would expect more of the same. 



 If you look back, budb was offered a replacement until he got a cob up his ass and than said he didn't want it anymore.

perhaps reps like yourself can make a difference by getting together and stop promoting FEJ until they make ammends. FEJ was able to resurface in the past, they were on the way............then models started breaking in the air, an they show no regrets. Help them help you. They are not doing you any favors.  



Its really up to the buyer... When I take a order I ask if there is any changes you want done.... Meaning, do you want more glass or carbon fiber here or there, do you want this or that.. I just got my AT3 and everything I asked for was done... YES, it did take longer BUT I have a nice jet, But I will still go threw it, I added more glass and CF here and there and even had them put my 2 boy's names on it. Try to get that done anywhere else. It will never happen!!!  You also have to remember the FEJ builds the jet when ordered not like others that have them stacked to the celling! You might end up with a bad mold job or a crack from all the other jets laying up against it.  You tell them what you want and they will do it and even show you a video or pictures of it.

Old 07-16-2013, 02:32 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk

ORIGINAL: foster4u

Bob,
I asked for specific changes prior to agreeing to order the aircraft. If they would have said no then I would not have agreed to make the purchase. I typically do not stress the little things like leaking cylinders and brittle hinges as I can repair or replace them cheaper than they can do this for me. I do understand that there is no free ride but rebuilding these relatively inexpensive (ARF like) aircraft is cheaper and easier than building a more expensive jet kit. I do not have the patience or skills to paint the way I would like to.
My manual starts with:
Step 1 – Disassemble aircraft
Step 2 – Evaluate structure
Step 3 – Repair or replace components
Step 4 – Start building…
Funny thing is that this is the same process I use on all ARF’s, aircraft bought used, and kits. Currently in work are two hotspots, two FB Hawks, one FEJ F-4 which is my hangar queen as I just haven’t finished with all of the things I want to do to it. And the FEJ A-7 waiting for me to make final payment and take delivery.
Stay on them about getting the things you need and enjoy the hobby.

Add step 0: Cut into wings and control surfaces to make sure honeycomb is used properly. You are not dealing with ANY ARF. You are dealing with a FEJ ARF. EDFJim has done a great job showing the modifications he has made to make his FEJ planes flyable.

gjhinshaw, I'm trying to stay out of this, yet you bring me back in by using my name. To be clear - Lowell and James (NOT FEJ) offered me a F-18 with the condition that I ask RCU to close my F-14 crash thread. I was told that it wasn't "helpful". I said no thanks. FEJ, meaning Ken and Johnny/Factory have done absolutely nothing to help me and wrapped it up by saying the blame was on my electronics. I was polite up until that point.
Old 07-16-2013, 02:46 PM
  #33  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk

Dubd,
I actually requested my aircraft be built with carbon fiber laminated plywood formers, spars, and all structure supporting the wings, tails, and gear, so step “0” will not be necessary. I understand the correct use of honeycomb and ordered the aircraft that I want in a configuration that supports my comfort level. FEJ was very receptive to my personal choice and I understand that mine will be a bit heavier.
Old 07-16-2013, 02:48 PM
  #34  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk

ORIGINAL: foster4u

Dubd,
I actually requested my aircraft be built with carbon fiber laminated plywood formers, spars, and all structure supporting the wings, tails, and gear, so step “0” will not be necessary. I understand the correct use of honeycomb and ordered the aircraft that I want in a configuration that supports my comfort level. FEJ was very receptive to my personal choice and I understand that mine will be a bit heavier.
That's great to hear and I wish you great success with your FEJ product. It sounds like they have selective listening at the expense of their past customers.
Old 07-16-2013, 03:15 PM
  #35  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk


ORIGINAL: gjhinshaw

Its not Junk!! Its what you make of it! I take my time putting a jet together! I insure that glue is here and there and if it doesn't look right I change it. We all or most of us just don't throw a jet together and go fly.... Maybe the new babies do because they take everything for granted and what everything handed to them!!! NO jet factory is prone to not crashing or building a jet that doesn't need something! If you say there is, Than you need to take a closer look OR we need to take a closer look at what you are flying!!! AGAIN, ITS NOT JUNK TO US WHO FLY THEM!!!! This thread is like ALL the others on FEJ... What you get is ALL haters bashing everyone and every thing!!!! YOU, don't care what you do to the jet community its just for your gratification for a few minutes! Its pretty sad for anyone to get on the forms anymore to see grown up guys bashing each other and bashing dealers, reps, and flyers... Yet you keep on and on to NO END!! We live in a sad world these days!!!

Hi,

I don't know you personally, and I have nothing against you personally (or any other way for that matter) but I have to say that this post was simply jaw-dropping. Your feelings on the 'dog-pile' notwithstanding, the idea that all of these planes are pretty much the same.... but what the end user thinks to modify is what makes the difference between an airplane and a smoking crater is profoundly naive and disingenuous in my opinion. I would be very interested to know what other ARFs you've personally assembled and flown (to know what you're comparing the ones you're talking about to). There are, in spite of your proclamation to the contrary, PLENTY of examples of ARF models where the buyer can confidently expect the airplane (and its components) to reliably do what they're designed (and, more importantly, SOLD) to do. Your statement completely ignores all of the firmly established, IMMUTABLE evidence of a fatally flawed design. When you have a fatally flawed design paired with sub-par craftsmanship/manufacture.... no amount of 'glue here and there' is going to solve the problem.

I definitely think some of the anti-FEJ people and comments have crossed the line and have become unnecessarily tribal and incendiary, but there's an overarching point here that's valid. YOU and some others need to look at a bigger picture and not just see this in terms of US vs. THEM. You might be the feather that tips the scales in a new customer's mind as to whether or not to pull the trigger on a purchase. You convince him that there's nothing wrong but just a bunch of angry guys unfairly attacking your 'perfectly fine' models... then what?? Do you take any responsibility (financially or morally) when HIS airplane goes down? It's not like there isn't compelling evidence that you are.

When faced with evidence of a recurring problem, shouldn't you at least consider slowing down and taking a closer look before you encourage someone else to go spend their money on something? I currently have a couple of F-22 customers to whom I'm NOT selling Y/A F-22 pipes to. Why? Because it's been reported to me that several of them had some potentially dangerous failures recently. My own experience with them was totally different, but I either have to pretend that we don't have a run of bad pipes (for ego's sake?) or stop representing to people that there's no problem. One of those actions is responsible.... the other is not.

I'm biting my tongue a lot on this whole issue because I have a couple of good friends who stand to be hurt by this whole situation, but some of these comments are hard to ignore...
Old 07-16-2013, 03:34 PM
  #36  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk


ORIGINAL: foster4u

Dubd,
I actually requested my aircraft be built with carbon fiber laminated plywood formers, spars, and all structure supporting the wings, tails, and gear, so step “0” will not be necessary. I understand the correct use of honeycomb and ordered the aircraft that I want in a configuration that supports my comfort level. FEJ was very receptive to my personal choice and I understand that mine will be a bit heavier.
Here's the problem with that. The customer should not have to ask the manufacture to build the jet they just ordered correctly. Having to ask to have something built correctly infers it normally would be built incorrectly, which makes the manufacture untrustworthy, whether it's FEJ, Toyota, or any manufacture.

Kirk

Old 07-16-2013, 03:34 PM
  #37  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk


ORIGINAL: foster4u

Bob,
I asked for specific changes prior to agreeing to order the aircraft. If they would have said no then I would not have agreed to make the purchase. I typically do not stress the little things like leaking cylinders and brittle hinges as I can repair or replace them cheaper than they can do this for me. I do understand that there is no free ride but rebuilding these relatively inexpensive (ARF like) aircraft is cheaper and easier than building a more expensive jet kit. I do not have the patience or skills to paint the way I would like to.
My manual starts with:
Step 1 – Disassemble aircraft
Step 2 – Evaluate structure
Step 3 – Repair or replace components
Step 4 – Start building…
Funny thing is that this is the same process I use on all ARF’s, aircraft bought used, and kits. Currently in work are two hotspots, two FB Hawks, one FEJ F-4 which is my hangar queen as I just haven’t finished with all of the things I want to do to it. And the FEJ A-7 waiting for me to make final payment and take delivery.
Stay on them about getting the things you need and enjoy the hobby.

Bill,

It's great that your knowledge of the 'good and bad' in an aircraft is such that you are able to make the necessary changes when necessary........it's a skill I'm still building up.

Unfortunately I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of modelers these days do not have the skill set to properly evaluate an airframe, much less make the changes necessary if/when they recognized the need to do so.

And quite frankly I scratch my head wondering why anyone paying good money would need/want to have to do this????

We are not talking about SIG Kadets or starter aircraft here, but rather some of the most sophisticated planes flown in the RC world today.

If a manufacturer does not have, or will not acquire, the expertise needed to ensure that the aircraft they produce and sell will function properly AS BUILT WITHOUT ANY MODIFICATIONS under the normal conditions that it can be expected to endure then they should not bother putting them out in the marketplace for unwary consumers.

Me, I had my experience with FEJ a few years ago and was fortunate enough to get my money back thanks to my CC company.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, so I never looked back.

Bill
Old 07-16-2013, 05:32 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk


ORIGINAL: k_sonn


ORIGINAL: foster4u

Dubd,
I actually requested my aircraft be built with carbon fiber laminated plywood formers, spars, and all structure supporting the wings, tails, and gear, so step “0” will not be necessary. I understand the correct use of honeycomb and ordered the aircraft that I want in a configuration that supports my comfort level. FEJ was very receptive to my personal choice and I understand that mine will be a bit heavier.
Here's the problem with that. The customer should not have to ask the manufacture to build the jet they just ordered correctly. Having to ask to have something built correctly infers it normally would be built incorrectly, which makes the manufacture untrustworthy, whether it's FEJ, Toyota, or any manufacture.

Kirk

K_sonn,
You are correct and I agree with you. That is why I say it is good to make potential buyers aware of what they are buying. What I have issue with is the attitude presented when someone chooses to buy what they want. I have never said that I would recommend FEJ to anyone that I did not believe could make the necessary changes, nor would I recommend a new BVM kit as they would probably never complete the kit. I would recommend picking up a used BVM, Skymaster, Composite ARF, FEJ or other aircraft with a decent flight record as the hard work has been done. I have built many ARF aircraft and jets and in many cases I really think the term ARF is incorrect. Some ARF's are nothing more than nicely finished fuselages but require proper building. Does FEJ have a long way to go, yes but if a person chooses to take on the challange don't stone them, help them.
Old 07-16-2013, 05:39 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk


ORIGINAL: Hinckley Bill


ORIGINAL: foster4u

Bob,
I asked for specific changes prior to agreeing to order the aircraft. If they would have said no then I would not have agreed to make the purchase. I typically do not stress the little things like leaking cylinders and brittle hinges as I can repair or replace them cheaper than they can do this for me. I do understand that there is no free ride but rebuilding these relatively inexpensive (ARF like) aircraft is cheaper and easier than building a more expensive jet kit. I do not have the patience or skills to paint the way I would like to.
My manual starts with:
Step 1 – Disassemble aircraft
Step 2 – Evaluate structure
Step 3 – Repair or replace components
Step 4 – Start building…
Funny thing is that this is the same process I use on all ARF’s, aircraft bought used, and kits. Currently in work are two hotspots, two FB Hawks, one FEJ F-4 which is my hangar queen as I just haven’t finished with all of the things I want to do to it. And the FEJ A-7 waiting for me to make final payment and take delivery.
Stay on them about getting the things you need and enjoy the hobby.

Bill,

It's great that your knowledge of the 'good and bad' in an aircraft is such that you are able to make the necessary changes when necessary........it's a skill I'm still building up.

Unfortunately I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of modelers these days do not have the skill set to properly evaluate an airframe, much less make the changes necessary if/when they recognized the need to do so.

And quite frankly I scratch my head wondering why anyone paying good money would need/want to have to do this???? I enjoy the challange and love their choice of kits and size.

We are not talking about SIG Kadets or starter aircraft here, but rather some of the most sophisticated planes flown in the RC world today.

If a manufacturer does not have, or will not acquire, the expertise needed to ensure that the aircraft they produce and sell will function properly AS BUILT WITHOUT ANY MODIFICATIONS under the normal conditions that it can be expected to endure then they should not bother putting them out in the marketplace for unwary consumers. This is something that they definitely need to address. Perhaps ignoring the call to go lighter and return to standard construction.
Me, I had my experience with FEJ a few years ago and was fortunate enough to get my money back thanks to my CC company.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me, so I never looked back.

Bill
Old 07-17-2013, 07:36 AM
  #40  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk

<Deleted> wrong forum, sorry...
Old 07-17-2013, 09:44 AM
  #41  
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Default RE: FEJ Hawk

If you aren't x-raying your jet, you just aren't doing due deligence.







How can this gjhinshaw dude possibly think that there we can as end users be able to rectify ALL possible problems with a jet we buy.

There is NO way I could test the structural integrity of my Ultra Bandit Stab aluminum mounts that BVM gives me.

Will I crush it? And see how tight the vice gets on it?

How about the inconel in the turbine wheel in my turbine? How can I test that? Etc...

There are some things manufacturs need to do correctly, because we just can't as end users.

Just don't fly Fried Beagle Jets. They actually probably aren't malicious. They probably aren't sitting back and laughing at us dumb americans buying their stuff.

They are just indifferent and will continue to sell you junk that you continue to buy.

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