WACO YMF
07-15-2013, 01:40 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
Barth 1/3 YMF Unknown Parts Old Kit
Anyone...
Attached photo shows parts I have not found on plans yet. They look like counterweights. Package called Beutel nr. 12 Anyone know what they are?
Next question on servos. I was going to mount elevator servos in turtle deck (baggage door area) and run arrow shafts back to elevator. For rudder, the plan was to mount servo in same general area and use cables for rudder and TW. I have on hand a number of both FMA S500 and Hitec HS 805 BB. Hitec is analog. Believe FMA same. Both put out over 300 oz-in at 6V. Anyone know recommended servo torques for all servos for ths plane??
Engine not picked out yet, but likely a 150 twin (love a radial but too expensive). Is the Waco nose heavy with a 150 and should I be thinking of moving servos more to rear?
Thanks,
Mike Hopkins
Waco Brotherhood # 132
Anyone...
Attached photo shows parts I have not found on plans yet. They look like counterweights. Package called Beutel nr. 12 Anyone know what they are?
Next question on servos. I was going to mount elevator servos in turtle deck (baggage door area) and run arrow shafts back to elevator. For rudder, the plan was to mount servo in same general area and use cables for rudder and TW. I have on hand a number of both FMA S500 and Hitec HS 805 BB. Hitec is analog. Believe FMA same. Both put out over 300 oz-in at 6V. Anyone know recommended servo torques for all servos for ths plane??
Engine not picked out yet, but likely a 150 twin (love a radial but too expensive). Is the Waco nose heavy with a 150 and should I be thinking of moving servos more to rear?
Thanks,
Mike Hopkins
Waco Brotherhood # 132
07-15-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: WACO YMF
Mike,
Not a Barth but I have Hitec HS-645MG servo's on all my flying surfaces. These are under 150oz on 6v. No issues at all with control authority.
With a 157 twin in my WACO I am still using several pounds of nose weight. I have the elevator servo's mounted in the stab so they do contribute to the added nose weight and the AMR kit does build heavier than the Barth kit. I would guess that you will need some nose weight and if you move the servo's to the back and that will increase the amount of weight needed.
Hope It helps!
Anthony
Not a Barth but I have Hitec HS-645MG servo's on all my flying surfaces. These are under 150oz on 6v. No issues at all with control authority.
With a 157 twin in my WACO I am still using several pounds of nose weight. I have the elevator servo's mounted in the stab so they do contribute to the added nose weight and the AMR kit does build heavier than the Barth kit. I would guess that you will need some nose weight and if you move the servo's to the back and that will increase the amount of weight needed.
Hope It helps!
Anthony
07-15-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: WACO YMF
hopkimf. yes they are counterweights fore the ailerons but I did not use them, went with servos on all ailerons. You will need as much weight forward as possible, build the tail as light as you can and keep all radio equipment as forward as you can, that is what I found in my build of course this can vary because we all tend to add or subtract weight in different areas to suit what we add in the way of strength , scale detail, ect ect ect.
Will post a couple of photos of my elevator, rudder and tail wheel servo mounts.
Regards tmac.
Will post a couple of photos of my elevator, rudder and tail wheel servo mounts.
Regards tmac.
07-15-2013, 02:07 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
WacoNut,
Thanks for the comments. I'll put the servos not so far back. If you are doing fine, I'll go with HS-645MG. I bought the others cheap and had them sitting around, but they're big and harder to package.
MH #132
Thanks for the comments. I'll put the servos not so far back. If you are doing fine, I'll go with HS-645MG. I bought the others cheap and had them sitting around, but they're big and harder to package.
MH #132
07-15-2013, 02:21 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: tmac48
hopkimf. yes they are counterweights fore the ailerons but I did not use them, went with servos on all ailerons. You will need as much weight forward as possible, build the tail as light as you can and keep all radio equipment as forward as you can, that is what I found in my build of course this can vary because we all tend to add or subtract weight in different areas to suit what we add in the way of strength , scale detail, ect ect ect.
Will post a couple of photos of my elevator, rudder and tail wheel servo mounts.
Regards tmac.
hopkimf. yes they are counterweights fore the ailerons but I did not use them, went with servos on all ailerons. You will need as much weight forward as possible, build the tail as light as you can and keep all radio equipment as forward as you can, that is what I found in my build of course this can vary because we all tend to add or subtract weight in different areas to suit what we add in the way of strength , scale detail, ect ect ect.
Will post a couple of photos of my elevator, rudder and tail wheel servo mounts.
Regards tmac.
Tmac, thanks.
'
I like the way yours look so much I was thinking about putting all the little screws in as well. Back some years ago I bought some '0-3/16' from Micro fasteners for use on Pepino 1/4 Waco. Is that about the size you have used?
http://www.microfasteners.com/
Regards, Mike H
07-15-2013, 02:46 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: WacoNut
Mike,
Not a Barth but I have Hitec HS-645MG servo's on all my flying surfaces. These are under 150oz on 6v. No issues at all with control authority.
With a 157 twin in my WACO I am still using several pounds of nose weight. I have the elevator servo's mounted in the stab so they do contribute to the added nose weight and the AMR kit does build heavier than the Barth kit. I would guess that you will need some nose weight and if you move the servo's to the back and that will increase the amount of weight needed.
Hope It helps!
Anthony
Mike,
Not a Barth but I have Hitec HS-645MG servo's on all my flying surfaces. These are under 150oz on 6v. No issues at all with control authority.
With a 157 twin in my WACO I am still using several pounds of nose weight. I have the elevator servo's mounted in the stab so they do contribute to the added nose weight and the AMR kit does build heavier than the Barth kit. I would guess that you will need some nose weight and if you move the servo's to the back and that will increase the amount of weight needed.
Hope It helps!
Anthony
WacoNut,
One more. Tmaac is using servos on all four ailerons. You doing same? Got me thinking about counter weighting with just two servos. Is it necessary?Also, you mentioned HS-645MG on all flying surfaces. That's one each for all flying surfaces?
Thanks,
MH #132
07-15-2013, 04:16 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
Tmac48,
I made the tail feathers removable for easier transport, but looks very similar to what you did. Appears that you are driving the elevator halves independent of each other. What did you do to prevent the elevators from sliding out of the center bearings. Mine is built to the drawings and the only thing preventing them from sliding out is the outer bearing holder, but that can move.
Mike,
I'm going with higher torque servos on the ailerons and no counter weights. I raised the question to Peter and this was his response: "The counter weight for the ailerons are for preventing wing flutter which may be introduced by the ailerons. If you have strong enough servos installed (80Ncm torque or more) you may not need them. Digital servos are even better as the holding force is very high." That converts to 113oz-in.
Chuck
I made the tail feathers removable for easier transport, but looks very similar to what you did. Appears that you are driving the elevator halves independent of each other. What did you do to prevent the elevators from sliding out of the center bearings. Mine is built to the drawings and the only thing preventing them from sliding out is the outer bearing holder, but that can move.
Mike,
I'm going with higher torque servos on the ailerons and no counter weights. I raised the question to Peter and this was his response: "The counter weight for the ailerons are for preventing wing flutter which may be introduced by the ailerons. If you have strong enough servos installed (80Ncm torque or more) you may not need them. Digital servos are even better as the holding force is very high." That converts to 113oz-in.
Chuck
07-15-2013, 04:47 PM
RE: WACO YMF
hopkimf, got my screws from M/F also but I went with #1 gauge #0 to my knowledge are slotted head only but would probably look ok as well.
chuck, I will see if I have a photo of my elevator that shows what stops it from sliding sideways, you need to look at the bearing holders that are captive in the elevators.
tmac.
chuck, I will see if I have a photo of my elevator that shows what stops it from sliding sideways, you need to look at the bearing holders that are captive in the elevators.
tmac.
07-15-2013, 05:00 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
tmac,
I have a different version of Peter's Waco. Your's has a better design for keeping the elevator from moving laterally. I'd take a picture of mine, but it is in Florida and we are in Minnesota for the summer.
Chuck
I have a different version of Peter's Waco. Your's has a better design for keeping the elevator from moving laterally. I'd take a picture of mine, but it is in Florida and we are in Minnesota for the summer.
Chuck
07-15-2013, 05:09 PM
RE: WACO YMF
Mike,
I have a servo for each surface. 4 servo's on aileron's, 2 servo's for the elevators and one servo for the rudder and tail wheel. I am also running a Smart-Fly power expander. I highly recommend using one of these on large models where you are using a lot of high power draw servo's. The power expander handles all the power needs of the servo's and the receiver just handles the signals. This prevents overload of the receiver which may lead to failure. I am running dual 6v 4200 mAh batteries to the power expander and another 6v 4200 mAh battery on the ignition. I have enough battery power to fly all day
.
I figured I might as well make some of the added weight useful.
Anthony
I have a servo for each surface. 4 servo's on aileron's, 2 servo's for the elevators and one servo for the rudder and tail wheel. I am also running a Smart-Fly power expander. I highly recommend using one of these on large models where you are using a lot of high power draw servo's. The power expander handles all the power needs of the servo's and the receiver just handles the signals. This prevents overload of the receiver which may lead to failure. I am running dual 6v 4200 mAh batteries to the power expander and another 6v 4200 mAh battery on the ignition. I have enough battery power to fly all day
. I figured I might as well make some of the added weight useful.
Anthony
07-15-2013, 05:11 PM
RE: WACO YMF
chuck, mine would be the same as yours, I altered the bearings to try and make it more like the full scale. To my knowledge Peter has never altered the hinging set up of his kit.
tmac
tmac
07-15-2013, 05:20 PM
RE: WACO YMF
G/ Day Nut, how is your back going? i'm off to the physio and hydro twice a week and it is helping to keep mine from giving me too much grief. Hope you can get on top of your woes.
Best Wishes
Regards tmac.
Best Wishes
Regards tmac.
07-15-2013, 05:52 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: WacoNut
Mike,
I have a servo for each surface. 4 servo's on aileron's, 2 servo's for the elevators and one servo for the rudder and tail wheel. I am also running a Smart-Fly power expander. I highly recommend using one of these on large models where you are using a lot of high power draw servo's. The power expander handles all the power needs of the servo's and the receiver just handles the signals. This prevents overload of the receiver which may lead to failure. I am running dual 6v 4200 mAh batteries to the power expander and another 6v 4200 mAh battery on the ignition. I have enough battery power to fly all day.
I figured I might as well make some of the added weight useful.
Anthony
Mike,
I have a servo for each surface. 4 servo's on aileron's, 2 servo's for the elevators and one servo for the rudder and tail wheel. I am also running a Smart-Fly power expander. I highly recommend using one of these on large models where you are using a lot of high power draw servo's. The power expander handles all the power needs of the servo's and the receiver just handles the signals. This prevents overload of the receiver which may lead to failure. I am running dual 6v 4200 mAh batteries to the power expander and another 6v 4200 mAh battery on the ignition. I have enough battery power to fly all day
. I figured I might as well make some of the added weight useful.
Anthony
This helps a bunch. I was thinking two for elevator as well. I think four for ailerons to eliminate potential flutter problems (counterweights, etc.) is good too. But only one HS-645MG for rudder and TW? Rudder is pretty big. I'll look into Smart-Fly power expander. Since this is my first 'giant', much of this is new to me.
Regards,
Mike Hopkins
Waco Brotherhood # 132
07-15-2013, 06:04 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: tmac48
hopkimf, got my screws from M/F also but I went with #1 gauge #0 to my knowledge are slotted head only but would probably look ok as well.
chuck, I will see if I have a photo of my elevator that shows what stops it from sliding sideways, you need to look at the bearing holders that are captive in the elevators.
tmac.
hopkimf, got my screws from M/F also but I went with #1 gauge #0 to my knowledge are slotted head only but would probably look ok as well.
chuck, I will see if I have a photo of my elevator that shows what stops it from sliding sideways, you need to look at the bearing holders that are captive in the elevators.
tmac.
Here's a page from catalog. Button head and came with the smallest hex socket wrench ever saw.
http://www.microfasteners.com/socket...loy-steel.html
Regards, MH
#132
07-15-2013, 09:10 PM
RE: WACO YMF
hopkimf, thanks I have seen these before just be careful for the small button head can very easily srip out and make it very hard to remove them. I do not think any of the screws on the full scale had button head, maybe someone else with more knowledge could answer this.
tmac.
tmac.
07-15-2013, 11:05 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
hopkimf
As tmac said they are counterweights to reduce flutter and also to reduce load on the aileron servos.
I did notice that you have assembled them incorrectly. It is a bit confusing on the drawings.
See pic of correct assembly.
Regards
Errol #204
As tmac said they are counterweights to reduce flutter and also to reduce load on the aileron servos.
I did notice that you have assembled them incorrectly. It is a bit confusing on the drawings.
See pic of correct assembly.
Regards
Errol #204
07-16-2013, 03:08 AM
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RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: Errol Levin
hopkimf
As tmac said they are counterweights to reduce flutter and also to reduce load on the aileron servos.
I did notice that you have assembled them incorrectly. It is a bit confusing on the drawings.
See pic of correct assembly.
Regards
Errol #204
hopkimf
As tmac said they are counterweights to reduce flutter and also to reduce load on the aileron servos.
I did notice that you have assembled them incorrectly. It is a bit confusing on the drawings.
See pic of correct assembly.
Regards
Errol #204
I did find it on the lower wing plan. My aluminum arms were not not bent to form a mounting pad. I understand the counterweight part, but wonder if they were included due to an actual flutter problem or something that might happen. I'm thinking four aileron servos like most others have done, but obviously two could work and cheaper, easier.
Thanks,
Mike Hopkins
Waco # 132
07-16-2013, 05:13 AM
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RE: WACO YMF
Mike
The only person who can tell us if there were flutter problems is Peter Barth.
Peter your input would be welcome.
Regards
ERROL
The only person who can tell us if there were flutter problems is Peter Barth.
Peter your input would be welcome.
Regards
ERROL
07-16-2013, 05:44 AM
RE: WACO YMF
Errol,Mike, I'm pretty sure that Peter has addressed this in the past, he is confident with the two servo and slave rod as per full scale but of course flutter does not come from an inherent problem with any particular model but arises most commonly from poor installation of hinges and sloppy linkages, in which case four servos with bad instal and sloppy linkages will not stop flutter. counterbalances primary job is to stop static load on the servos, aerodynamic balancers are used to help lighten the load on the servos when in flight. But you're correct Peter would be best to answer this question himself.
tmac.
tmac.
07-16-2013, 07:28 AM
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RE: WACO YMF
tmac48, hopkimf, and all
The screws used on the original Waco’s were slotted shallow dome head screws for the most part (see picture).
The screws on the newer Waco Classic Aircraft YMFs have been Phillips shallow dome head.
Some restored Waco’s have had the slotted head screws replaced with Phillips head, an example is the Waco that was the basis for the Platt/Pica Kits, Y/UMF NC 14031, and it now has Phillips head screws.
The screws used on the original Waco’s were slotted shallow dome head screws for the most part (see picture).
The screws on the newer Waco Classic Aircraft YMFs have been Phillips shallow dome head.
Some restored Waco’s have had the slotted head screws replaced with Phillips head, an example is the Waco that was the basis for the Platt/Pica Kits, Y/UMF NC 14031, and it now has Phillips head screws.
07-16-2013, 01:06 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
Dear All,
I always had the counter weights installed on my Wacos,so I actually do not know with which servos and without weights the wings start to flutter. But it is for sure if the ailerons have to much of play due to wrong hing or rod installation this will be not helpful to prevent flutter. I had always the HS - 645 MG servos installed (only two for the ailerons in the lower wing panels) but with counter weight. Now in my new Waco I will have the High Voltage Hitec servos with an NiFe battery providing 6,6 Volts. I have a separate current distributor for the servos not going via the receiver, thus having the advantage the system to be able to accept more than 30 Amps. (hardly possible with receiver internal wiring and original servo connectors. I have also new servo connector soldered in place. All in all I have 6 servos plus three electronic switches installed. Rest of the installations as pumps (2 off), ignition and lights (Landing- and ACL plus beacon) are driven by three additional batteries.
If you want not to install the counter weights your aileron servos should be strong may be digital servos as the holding force is stronger than with analogue servos. By the way Mike your counter weight assy is wrong. In the bag there should be some rivets to assemble the sub assy as Errol is showing with his photo.
Peter
I always had the counter weights installed on my Wacos,so I actually do not know with which servos and without weights the wings start to flutter. But it is for sure if the ailerons have to much of play due to wrong hing or rod installation this will be not helpful to prevent flutter. I had always the HS - 645 MG servos installed (only two for the ailerons in the lower wing panels) but with counter weight. Now in my new Waco I will have the High Voltage Hitec servos with an NiFe battery providing 6,6 Volts. I have a separate current distributor for the servos not going via the receiver, thus having the advantage the system to be able to accept more than 30 Amps. (hardly possible with receiver internal wiring and original servo connectors. I have also new servo connector soldered in place. All in all I have 6 servos plus three electronic switches installed. Rest of the installations as pumps (2 off), ignition and lights (Landing- and ACL plus beacon) are driven by three additional batteries.
If you want not to install the counter weights your aileron servos should be strong may be digital servos as the holding force is stronger than with analogue servos. By the way Mike your counter weight assy is wrong. In the bag there should be some rivets to assemble the sub assy as Errol is showing with his photo.
Peter
07-16-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: WACO YMF
Mike,
I have had no issues with slaving the tail wheel to the rudder servo. The tail wheel is only seeing any pressure while taxiing from the pits to the runway and back. Once you start the take-off run the tail comes up quick and then the rudder takes over and the tail wheel has no forces on the servo. I think as long as you have a good strong metal geared servo you are fine. I have no issues taxiing my plane and it has more than enough rudder authority.
Later!!
Anthony
I have had no issues with slaving the tail wheel to the rudder servo. The tail wheel is only seeing any pressure while taxiing from the pits to the runway and back. Once you start the take-off run the tail comes up quick and then the rudder takes over and the tail wheel has no forces on the servo. I think as long as you have a good strong metal geared servo you are fine. I have no issues taxiing my plane and it has more than enough rudder authority.
Later!!
Anthony
07-16-2013, 10:31 PM
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RE: WACO YMF
Hi Robert,
I did answer you directly, obviously you didn't receive the message. I am not aware what you mean by 38.... the number is it mm or inch or what is it?
Peter
I did answer you directly, obviously you didn't receive the message. I am not aware what you mean by 38.... the number is it mm or inch or what is it?
Peter
07-17-2013, 07:25 AM
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RE: WACO YMF
ORIGINAL: FMBB
Dear All,
I always had the counter weights installed on my Wacos,so I actually do not know with which servos and without weights the wings start to flutter. But it is for sure if the ailerons have to much of play due to wrong hing or rod installation this will be not helpful to prevent flutter. I had always the HS - 645 MG servos installed (only two for the ailerons in the lower wing panels) but with counter weight. Now in my new Waco I will have the High Voltage Hitec servos with an NiFe battery providing 6,6 Volts. I have a separate current distributor for the servos not going via the receiver, thus having the advantage the system to be able to accept more than 30 Amps. (hardly possible with receiver internal wiring and original servo connectors. I have also new servo connector soldered in place. All in all I have 6 servos plus three electronic switches installed. Rest of the installations as pumps (2 off), ignition and lights (Landing- and ACL plus beacon) are driven by three additional batteries.
If you want not to install the counter weights your aileron servos should be strong may be digital servos as the holding force is stronger than with analogue servos. By the way Mike your counter weight assy is wrong. In the bag there should be some rivets to assemble the sub assy as Errol is showing with his photo.
Peter
Dear All,
I always had the counter weights installed on my Wacos,so I actually do not know with which servos and without weights the wings start to flutter. But it is for sure if the ailerons have to much of play due to wrong hing or rod installation this will be not helpful to prevent flutter. I had always the HS - 645 MG servos installed (only two for the ailerons in the lower wing panels) but with counter weight. Now in my new Waco I will have the High Voltage Hitec servos with an NiFe battery providing 6,6 Volts. I have a separate current distributor for the servos not going via the receiver, thus having the advantage the system to be able to accept more than 30 Amps. (hardly possible with receiver internal wiring and original servo connectors. I have also new servo connector soldered in place. All in all I have 6 servos plus three electronic switches installed. Rest of the installations as pumps (2 off), ignition and lights (Landing- and ACL plus beacon) are driven by three additional batteries.
If you want not to install the counter weights your aileron servos should be strong may be digital servos as the holding force is stronger than with analogue servos. By the way Mike your counter weight assy is wrong. In the bag there should be some rivets to assemble the sub assy as Errol is showing with his photo.
Peter
I am taking your advice. I will install two aileron servos and slave the uppers. Also will include the CTWTS. Hate to admit to the world I'm two damn dumb to read a print. Really should have thought about balanced ailerons. In 25 years of flying the same full scale club Cessna, every pre-flight includes checking ailerons for weights in place. Hope you like attached photo better.
Regards,
Mike Hopkins
Waco Brotherhood # 132
