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Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

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Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

Old 07-17-2013, 08:46 AM
  #101  
Shaun Evans
 
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

ORIGINAL: gjhinshaw

I started with a F16 from Byron, I have had..... Byron F16 x 3, F4, Star Fire from Tom Cook x 2, Yellow Star Fire, bvm BobCat x 2, TBM Shock Jet x 4, TBM DV8R x 4, (I did the R&D) FEJ F16, 1/5 F16, F18, AT3, F35, Skymaster F16, there are a few more. I am NO expert but I can fix/repair a jet to MY liking! Not all of there jets have flaws, I pilots would slow down and take the time to go over the jet.I am sure you remember that when YOU started that you had your issues with the models you were putting out. If I remember right you had some issues on the F4 or the 18.. Maybe it was both.........I saw what you threaded on the FEJ on the stabs and I know that FEJ is listening to you! They just wont listen to yelling and screaming... Would YOU??? So am I Qualified to be a jet pilot, Mr Yellow??


Hi,

Nobody is questioning your skills and or qualifications to pilot an RC jet. At least I'm not. What I'm taking issue with is your idea that the difference between a successful model or design and a time-bomb (waiting to kill someone or otherwise 86 our hobby) is whether or not the end-user went in and added some hysol here and there. That's just crazy. More importantly, it again totally ignores the question of proper engineering and design (both structural and aeronautical).

I'm not sure what you're talking about on the stabs and FEJ listening to me? If they're not listening to yelling and screaming, that means they're more concerned about the tone of the message than the merit of the message?? BTW, if I spent the kind of money some of these guys have on a jet that turned out to be FATALLY FLAWED from the building board, I would expect my input to be front-and-center in the board room regardless of pitch of my voice.

Lastly, what issues with F-4's and F-18's are you talking about? Yes, I'm sure dozens of them have crashed over the years (because that's what eventually happens to any model that gets flown regularly....they get hung up, sold or crashed). The thing is, they're not crashing because we let some amateur design them. They're not crashing because we lack even a rudimentary understanding of laminate structures or aircraft design. I don't think anyone has discovered some latent flaw in design, engineering or manufacture that renders the model unsafe before it comes out of the box, have they? I didn't bring up Y/A planes, but they've been flying successfully since the 80's. They're not packed up and shipped out the door long before anyone over here ever bothers to try to put one together. They're not designed under the TLAR principle based on layman's guesses and plastic model pictures. They're not sold under a marketing plan that has the customers paying to beta test them AFTER they've made us an interest-free loan for a year. Oh, and if one DOES blow up because we decided to get cute with materials, we don't post blatant lies on our web site blaming the customer. Finally, we sure as hell don't take money, fail to deliver merchandise, then go to meets and take pics all day while failing to answer emails asking for status.

You can try to equate all companies and all that, but that dog don't hunt.
Old 07-17-2013, 09:22 AM
  #102  
ravill
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

Hmm, well, I am x-raying my stabs. What does FEJ suggest we do. Do you guys x-ray your stabs? If no, then maybe you aren't doing your due deligence (as many are suggesting) to make sure your jet is "flight worthy".
Old 07-17-2013, 09:27 AM
  #103  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video


ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo

''The problem has been identified, analyzed, and rectified!''
The Hawk was real, and spectacular!
Old 07-17-2013, 09:30 AM
  #104  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

From watching the video I have to say that this is just another example of the lack of engineering skill that FEJ does not have. Aircraft and composite construction have been around for years. The larger the aircraft gets it will have higher intensity of forces on the airframe structure. This was not properly tested before coming to the event. By testing I mean test to failure, fly it hard.

So we can preach that we have the right to buy whatever. The answer yes you do it is your money just be careful if you endanger someone else. Comon sense seems to be thrown out the window. If a particular smart phone was prone to problems people would stay away from it if they heard of problems. But in this case people are blinded by the pretty paint but lack of substance.

Old 07-17-2013, 09:31 AM
  #105  
P. Richards
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

Here is the YouTube link

http://youtu.be/aWjckvlCy40

P. Richards aka SwatTeam
Old 07-17-2013, 09:32 AM
  #106  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

Finally![:-]
Old 07-17-2013, 09:40 AM
  #107  
essyou35
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

No offense but this is a gross exaggeration and full of drama. If this were the case then all the models that crash for everyother reason would also be putting us at risk. Jets have been crashing for lots of years now and we're all still around. Plenty of people flying over houses, hangars or the what not and these FEJ jets are not the worst of our problems.

This is about $$ and customer service, safety is is questionable given everything else that goes on in this hobby. There's plenty of spektrum problems that have lost jets and no one is ou there bashing them. Park flyers in neighborhoods, afterburners, cold soldering joints. All work against us.

Like I said no offense but just keeping it real.



ORIGINAL: YellowAircraft
a successful model or design and a time-bomb (waiting to kill someone or otherwise 86 our hobby)
Old 07-17-2013, 09:51 AM
  #108  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video


ORIGINAL: gjhinshaw

I think they had already found what the problem was..... I think its on page one
ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo

ORIGINAL: why_fly_high

One thing I find interesting is that FEJ seems to think they have the problem figured out...it is very possible that they only found the weakest link.
This very point was suggested by a trained, qualified, and practicing engineer.

As he stated to me, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that the touted ''solution'' simply relocated the failure point elsewhere along the load path. Without thorough and professional testing, how to know? Perhaps it is cheaper and more expedient for FEJ to simply let their buyers serve as production test pilots.

Now, in fairness, I wasn't present at JOK every flying minute after the Hawk failure, so I cannot claim that FEJ did not conduct an extensive ground and flight test program on the ''fix'' while we were at supper, or back at the hotel hitting the pool, and therefore was able to have it announced with certainty, at the conclusion of JOK, that the issue was solved.

Sluggo
That is the point. They may have found the problem this time. As gently as it was being flown and had a failure, they may find the next weakest link up the chain. I am not saying they can't figure it out, I'm saying that this plane is not ready to be released to the public until it has been thoroughly tested. RC flight test programs I have been a part of will often load the plane 10-20% above expected weight and then fly the heck out of it. If it holds together then it is ready for the public.
Old 07-17-2013, 09:51 AM
  #109  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

First thing a PI attorney is going to do to find out information about the model jet that killed someone... google. First hit was RCU. Like DocYates mentioned, this is an open forum and the writing is already on the wall. If you bought one of these products, very high chance you are on RCU. You don't even have to be a poster, if you physically click on this thread, it is recorded. Not many people are going to spend $10-20K without doing a little internet research...

My profession has a history of protecting one another. I feel that mindset does more harm than good. You've heard the phrase, "if we don't police ourselves, someone else will." This isn't picking on a specific company, this is self preservation. We all really enjoy flying these toy airplanes. It's already hard enough to find a place to fly due to the perceived danger of a crash. Just think what would happen if that hawk lawn darted into a crowd of people and the local news was there doing a piece on the model airshow?

We are trying to limit our risk exposure for the community FEJ fans, thats it. Shame on FEJ for not doing this for us.
Old 07-17-2013, 09:51 AM
  #110  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

I think we can all agree that the crash of the large Hawk at Kentucky Jets was unfortunate; nobody likes to see a model crash nor the associated loss of time and investment by the owner. Fortunately, the crash site was in the overfly area completely away from the pilots/spectators and thus nobody was hurt.

It was a beautiful plane; I hope that one day I'll be able to paint as well as the folks in the paint shop at FEJ.

I spoke with James, Nir, and Lowell and offered my engineering assistance. FEJ was open to this and Lowell was quite nice and showed me the broken stab assembly as well as the complete assembly of the Hawk donated for auction. They seemed committed to finding a solution to the problem. Indeed, they have some sound ideas for improvements and, as more data and analysis becomes available, these ideas may be fine-tuned to provide a thorough and complete solution. As the saying goes, "Rome wasn't built in a day."

I suggest that we all lighten up a bit and give them that time. Nothing is going to be gained by getting into some lengthy slam-fest here on RCU.

Regards,

Jim
Old 07-17-2013, 09:56 AM
  #111  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

ORIGINAL: gjhinshaw

I think they had already found what the problem was..... I think its on page one
ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo

ORIGINAL: why_fly_high

One thing I find interesting is that FEJ seems to think they have the problem figured out...it is very possible that they only found the weakest link.
This very point was suggested by a trained, qualified, and practicing engineer.

As he stated to me, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that the touted ''solution'' simply relocated the failure point elsewhere along the load path. Without thorough and professional testing, how to know? Perhaps it is cheaper and more expedient for FEJ to simply let their buyers serve as production test pilots.

Now, in fairness, I wasn't present at JOK every flying minute after the Hawk failure, so I cannot claim that FEJ did not conduct an extensive ground and flight test program on the ''fix'' while we were at supper, or back at the hotel hitting the pool, and therefore was able to have it announced with certainty, at the conclusion of JOK, that the issue was solved.

Sluggo
ORIGINAL: Johnny Wong

Dear customers, we flown the new prototype Big Hawk today at KY Jets, unfortunately we lost it and we are investigating the problem. we believe we understand what happened and we are going to fix it right away ! For now, we have decided to place the Large Hawk back into testing mode until we feel we have a solid solution for this airplane . This is not a problem the 1/5.5 or 1/4.5 Hawks! We Appreciate your understanding and your support , FEJ Team
Doesn't anyone else find something wrong with FEJ's statement that they fixed the problem by the next morning? Don't you think that a regime of testing would need to be accomplished BEFORE FEJ can claim they fixed the problem? Doesn't FEJ's statement strike anyone as being odd? Doesn't anyone think that they must do extensive research before determining what failed?

It's ridiculous to claim that the problem has been identified and fixed by the next morning. It appears to me that if this is how FEJ claims they research and fix issues, they haven't a clue as what it takes to test a product before it goes out on the market.
Old 07-17-2013, 10:05 AM
  #112  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video


ORIGINAL: P. Richards

Here is the YouTube link

http://youtu.be/aWjckvlCy40

P. Richards aka SwatTeam
Great job on the entire video. Professionally done!
Old 07-17-2013, 10:37 AM
  #113  
David Searles
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video


ORIGINAL: rcjets_63

I think we can all agree that the crash of the large Hawk at Kentucky Jets was unfortunate; nobody likes to see a model crash nor the associated loss of time and investment by the owner. Fortunately, the crash site was in the overfly area completely away from the pilots/spectators and thus nobody was hurt.

It was a beautiful plane; I hope that one day I'll be able to paint as well as the folks in the paint shop at FEJ.

I spoke with James, Nir, and Lowell and offered my engineering assistance. FEJ was open to this and Lowell was quite nice and showed me the broken stab assembly as well as the complete assembly of the Hawk donated for auction. They seemed committed to finding a solution to the problem. Indeed, they have some sound ideas for improvements and, as more data and analysis becomes available, these ideas may be fine-tuned to provide a thorough and complete solution. As the saying goes, ''Rome wasn't built in a day.''

I suggest that we all lighten up a bit and give them that time. Nothing is going to be gained by getting into some lengthy slam-fest here on RCU.

Regards,

Jim
Jim,

Based on your inspection, and considering the result, would you say this jet had been properly tested, prior to it being brought to JOK and offered for sale to the public?

I'm all for giving them the time to provide a solution to this confirmed defect. What I don't want to see, is them solve this issue and then immediately, without further testing of the entire airframe, declare "problem solved" place your orders!

As an engineer you know full well that fixing this problem could very well highlight another weakness further down the stress chain. My issue has been and continues to be, that the jet not be offered for sale until it has adequately been tested to hold up to anticipated speeds and G loads.

Do that, attend to the identified support issues, and FEJ could have a very bright future! Otherwise, they will continue to be the object of the aforementioned "slam-fests"

David S
Old 07-17-2013, 10:42 AM
  #114  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

Just watched the FEJ Hawk video, man it went in hard, anyway, would the result had been different if the pilot deployed there flaps as an elevator to level the plane?
Old 07-17-2013, 10:43 AM
  #115  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video


ORIGINAL: FalconWings


ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo

''The problem has been identified, analyzed, and rectified!''
The Hawk was real, and spectacular!
Old 07-17-2013, 11:18 AM
  #116  
ravill
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video


ORIGINAL: Airplanes400


Doesn't anyone else find something wrong with FEJ's statement that they fixed the problem by the next morning? Don't you think that a regime of testing would need to be accomplished BEFORE FEJ can claim they fixed the problem? Doesn't FEJ's statement strike anyone as being odd? Doesn't anyone think that they must do extensive research before determining what failed?

It's ridiculous to claim that the problem has been identified and fixed by the next morning. It appears to me that if this is how FEJ claims they research and fix issues, they haven't a clue as what it takes to test a product before it goes out on the market.
Yes, most of us do find something wrong with the sentiment of fixing something overnight. ESPECIALLY on the JESUS surface of any aircraft.

Again, I don't think the FEJ people are particularly malicious or particularly all that caring about how the aircraft performs.

Their best flight testing is composed of making sure it flies off their shelves to your home!! Ofcourse, AFTER you sent your payment to china!
Old 07-17-2013, 11:22 AM
  #117  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video


ORIGINAL: essyou35

No offense but this is a gross exaggeration and full of drama. If this were the case then all the models that crash for everyother reason would also be putting us at risk. Jets have been crashing for lots of years now and we're all still around. Plenty of people flying over houses, hangars or the what not and these FEJ jets are not the worst of our problems.

This is about $$ and customer service, safety is is questionable given everything else that goes on in this hobby. There's plenty of spektrum problems that have lost jets and no one is ou there bashing them. Park flyers in neighborhoods, afterburners, cold soldering joints. All work against us.

Like I said no offense but just keeping it real.



ORIGINAL: YellowAircraft
a successful model or design and a time-bomb (waiting to kill someone or otherwise 86 our hobby)

Hi,

No offense taken, but it's no exaggeration. Of course, every crash is a potential threat to this segment of the hobby. We can have a dumb-thumb crash with a perfectly sound model and THAT crash will be the one that generates the horror-filled headline. That's not what I'm talking about, though. I'm talking about models that are clearly not airworthy as-is or otherwise likely to have failures. I've built SEVERAL of these for customers, and I am not being dramatic.
Old 07-17-2013, 11:51 AM
  #118  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

Disco.

I will keep it brief. The stabilator in this case provides down force to keep the aircraft level with an opposite force to the center of lift which is normally behind the center of gravity. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevator_(aircraft) ) When they blew off, flaps would have only pitched the aircraft down harder due to the increased camber in the wing and movement of the center of lift to making the angle attack of the wing increase. The plane was basically an arrow at the point the stab departed. Ali, being a full scale pilot, not that he was thinking about this at the time, knew the aircraft was doomed and shut it down and let gravity take its course.
Old 07-17-2013, 02:07 PM
  #119  
rrragmanliam
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

ORIGINAL: DrScoles
Forgot to add, my wife is a personal injury attorney and I have been sharing this story with her since Dantley lost the F-14... I'm not just spouting unwarranted S*&t here...
Yeah let’s get a bunch of attorneys involved on this one! The net result will be an increase in the cost of all items in our hobby as MFG pass along the cost of increased liability insurance. Don’t mean any disrespect to your wife personally BUT attourneys who specialize in her niche of law practice are a big reason why the costs of all goods and services have increased exponentially over the last twenty years.

rrragman

Old 07-17-2013, 02:38 PM
  #120  
bevar
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

Well...not exactly.

FWIW...some aircraft pitch up when flaps deployed, some down...some don't change at all.

Your stabilator explanation is potentially flawed as well. If the stabilator was an inverted airfoil (like the Saab 340...almost an inverted Clark Y airfoil) I would agree with your statement. On the Hawk, I believe the airfoil is/was symmetrical/semi symmetrical therefore neutral unless the stab pitch is changed.

That being said, there was no time or chance to do anything. The stabs came off and less than two seconds later the jet was taking a dirt nap.

Beave [8D]


ORIGINAL: cyphur01

Disco.

I will keep it brief. The stabilator in this case provides down force to keep the aircraft level with an opposite force to the center of lift which is normally behind the center of gravity. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevator_(aircraft) ) When they blew off, flaps would have only pitched the aircraft down harder due to the increased camber in the wing and movement of the center of lift to making the angle attack of the wing increase. The plane was basically an arrow at the point the stab departed. Ali, being a full scale pilot, not that he was thinking about this at the time, knew the aircraft was doomed and shut it down and let gravity take its course.
Old 07-17-2013, 04:13 PM
  #121  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video


ORIGINAL: bevar

[snip]

... less than two seconds later the jet was taking a dirt nap.

Beave [8D]

I HATE it when my jets do that!
Old 07-17-2013, 04:30 PM
  #122  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

Boli

Having 3000+ hours in the Saab 340B I know where you are coming from. Even though the stabilator might be symmetrical, the angle of attack that it has will cause a moment in one direction or the other to balance out the center of lift compared to cg. Because when the stab separated and the aircraft pitched down, this lead me to believe that the center of lift was aft of the cg. This tells me that normal flaps would move it further back causing a more downward movement. Doesn't matter really bc as soon as the stab departed the plane was toast Maybe Al Haynes could've landed it but not someone normal.
Old 07-17-2013, 04:56 PM
  #123  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video


ORIGINAL: FEJKEN



this is my Hawk, not your model. I crash a model, but you still use this case to hurt me. A human won't do like what you have done. I think you are not able to be a human. Anyone who will keep doing this and try to hurt me, I will talk to my attorney for a lawsuit.



Ken

I have a better idea. Lets investigate the cause of the crash, like maybe related to defect in design, and then be grateful no one got hurt or property damages where that person would want to sue.
Old 07-17-2013, 06:55 PM
  #124  
bevar
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video

What...only 3,000 hours in the B? SLACKER!!!

I have over 5,000+ in the B and B+...or "Turbo Shaker" as we lovingly called it...LOL.

It looked to me like once the stabs went Code Blue (one blew this way...one blew that way) the jet pretty much drew/flew a straight line into destiny. I understand your theory but still think it's more airframe design dependent whether the nose pitches up or down with flap deployment. No matter what it would have done...I'm pretty confident that it was game over...nothing was going to save that Hawk. Quite a shame because it was quite a good looking jet.

And so it goes...

Beave [&:]


ORIGINAL: cyphur01

Boli

Having 3000+ hours in the Saab 340B I know where you are coming from. Even though the stabilator might be symmetrical, the angle of attack that it has will cause a moment in one direction or the other to balance out the center of lift compared to cg. Because when the stab separated and the aircraft pitched down, this lead me to believe that the center of lift was aft of the cg. This tells me that normal flaps would move it further back causing a more downward movement. Doesn't matter really bc as soon as the stab departed the plane was toast Maybe Al Haynes could've landed it but not someone normal.
Old 07-17-2013, 09:20 PM
  #125  
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Default RE: Kentucky FEJ big Hawk Crash Video


ORIGINAL: rcjets_63

I think we can all agree that the crash of the large Hawk at Kentucky Jets was unfortunate; nobody likes to see a model crash nor the associated loss of time and investment by the owner. Fortunately, the crash site was in the overfly area completely away from the pilots/spectators and thus nobody was hurt.

It was a beautiful plane; I hope that one day I'll be able to paint as well as the folks in the paint shop at FEJ.

I spoke with James, Nir, and Lowell and offered my engineering assistance. FEJ was open to this and Lowell was quite nice and showed me the broken stab assembly as well as the complete assembly of the Hawk donated for auction. They seemed committed to finding a solution to the problem. Indeed, they have some sound ideas for improvements and, as more data and analysis becomes available, these ideas may be fine-tuned to provide a thorough and complete solution. As the saying goes, ''Rome wasn't built in a day.''

I suggest that we all lighten up a bit and give them that time. Nothing is going to be gained by getting into some lengthy slam-fest here on RCU.

Regards,

Jim
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