iron eagel

Your right those are 44 year old footprint and that is indeed sad (don't get me started on that) just another political boondoggle.
Michale and you are very correct, for the most part all you see today at any given field in this country are Arfs, and that is a sad fact as well.
While the size of our country is indeed a obstacle to overcome, perhaps it may be possible to get a couple of real serious F3S events organized in the different areas of the states. From what I can see do have a pretty good edge in power systems without a doubt, and yes there may be a few areas that they fall short as far as optimum airframes but not too many, still there are a few things that may lead to improvements over the current designs.
If Michale can provide Vicman with the right type of measurement system to make his event comparable to the German Speed Cup as far as the accuracy of measurement, so we not trying to compare apples to oranges, perhaps he could spur real interest in F3S events here in the states.
As far as modeling in the states your dead on, my club with nearly 150 members has at most 5 people who are not playing with Arf's, and that is sadder still.
But there are still a few hold outs who actually try to design and build there own planes.
Perhaps with Michale's help we can spur some serious efforts that could revive building here in the states at least for this class if nothing else.

vicman

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I will point out a few things that drive my earlier comments.
From the first Speed Rally till the last one I have been told how inferior our method of recording speed is, how we need to make it safer by this method or that. Mind you from people who have not been to the Rally, nor found a positive way to support it.
I really enjoy seeing the pictures, vids, and results of the German event but the biggest and most vocal negative comments about the Speed Rally have come from Speed Cup guys. Hence my polite acknowledgement of the impressive models and the event. Also my inquiries of the system. I get how the event runs and what the pilots need to do to record a time and the power/wing ratio.
However, to date nobody has come forth on the details of the measurement system, not even my inquires directly to FAI.

I would also like to point out that the very few who post in this part of RCU make up the consensus of the USA. Go to a pylon race here and you will see plenty of innovation even though the rules on design are well seasoned.

I call it the Speed Rally just to keep it simple. We all come out and fly our fast planes and have a nice baseline to compare our results against for that given day. So far I haven't had anyone who came to the event complain that we didn't give them a great day, a great show, and great speeds. I also haven't had anyone complain that we weren't getting an accurate reading of speed. Two radar guns and a how fast along with other telemetry getting very similar results tells me we are doing pretty good.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

I think we should also remember Wernher von Braun who led the engineering team that built the Saturn V rocket that lifted those ships to the moon. BTW, they have found the Apollo 11 boosters in the Atlantic recently. I spent countless hours reading his articles published in Popular Science back in the '60's. While he wrote in English quite well, he did have a bit of a German accent.

iron eagel

Von Braun was a true visionary, besides being a brilliant engineer, I have read may of his published works over the years. While Goddard may have been the father of American rocketry, without a doubt Wernher von Braun was the father of the American space program. Without him and his team our Moon landings would probably never have happened. I found it very interesting that when NASA decided to embark on the Orion program with the new Ares I an V launch system they had to look at what he did with the Apollo program to get an idea of how to do it, that proves just how advanced his ideas were.

jamaicaman

If you want any information about the measurementsystem , ask Christian Erdt [email protected]
He built the new system, include programming the software.


rgds
Sascha

f3d

Ask Christian,

maybe he will sell you a complete running system.

Best regards Michael

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

Email sent.

iron eagel

Sascha and Michael,
Thanks so much for the information!
Hopefully Vic can get this type of setup here in the States.
No all we have to do is come up with some airframes worthy of it.

Regards
Paul

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I can not control myself........I have an over powering urge to "butt in" here.......
Why spend hundreds of dollars for a FAI compliant timing system...?
If you plan on establishing FAI records, don't you also need to have a representative of the FAI in attendence, too.?
This used to mean that you had to pay for a judge's time and travel expenses so that he could witness the event.
I think it is nice to have the knowledge for how to build a FAI compliant system if you ever reach a point where you are seriously challenging world records...but until then your radar guns are already proven to work good enough.
I would get the planes and the people who need such a FAI system in place before worrying about the fancy timing system.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

I became an AMA CD so I could hold the Speed Rally and pylon races.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

How does that work with the AMA records..? Do they recognize records turned in by CDs on the honor system...?

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Once you establish that you can count to ten.............it's just a simple form that the CD fills out.

- former national record holder

iron eagel

lol

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

Pretty much how he said it.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

HP, what was your national record..?
How was the plane equipped..?
When did you do it..?
How long did your record hold up..?

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

He cheated like HE double hockey sticks!
It lasted till they changed the rulebook to exclude his antics

Speedy-Gonzales

My Feedback: (202)

Can you imagine the calculated time between the plane and the ground at 5 meters altitude and 285 MPH??

And the crash God says " behold I come in the twinkling of an eye!"......I'll bet it is less than that!! [:@]

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

not 100% sure but I think High Plains held the F1 pylon record for a time. I'm sure he will correct me if Im wrong. As for the Americans bringing some new tech I have no doubt we could bring it. I have seen some really draggy warbirds breaking 160 mph with the newer YS 4 strokes. I think the concept of big dia, big pitch props at a lower rpm has some merit. Just look at what the electric guys are doing with that formula.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Well it was a long time ago, 1995 in 428 quickie. Something on the order of 1:11 for the 2 1/2 mile course. I took the record from Dubby Jett, and lost it about 6 or 8 months later. The open record for 428 (Nelson/Jett engines)was set about 10 or 12 times over the course of 20 years, with each succeeding record harder and harder to get. Nobody that ever set it, and had their record beat ever regained it again.
I suspect that if you imagine a rubber sheet suspended from the ceiling, each peak would represent a record performance with multiple variables that each model/engine/flyer inputs to go fast. Very few do the exact same thing to achieve their fastest time. Which is why you seldom make one simple change and regain a record....it takes a new set-up, which precludes most from hitting a better combination without a lot of effort. Because you may improve your peak of the rubber map only to find that it is not the highest peak, and in essence you have to start over with a completely different setup to gain overall.

Or it could all be BS. I know that on that particular day, I was very lucky to have been racing Fred Burgdorf, as he was right on my tail for all ten laps and it is much easier to go fast when someone is right behind you. If you think their caller is doing a better job, you can listen to him too.

Richard Verono ended up with the last record in Formula One. It was an unbelievable 1:06 at Whitter Narrow in LA. I was there that day, and Richard was on fire. I think he won the FAI World Championships back then as well. If you go back to the mid to late 80's and see the pylon airplanes that were common back then, both here and the world you will see short stubby wings, typically about 50" span in both Formula One and FAI. Around 1987, I built the first high aspect ratio F1, a modified Stinger with a 58 1/2" wing. It was very fast, and I won the Calcutta at the SLO Flier race in May 1988. I won the final against Bob Smith, Dave Shadel and another guy whom I've forgot. I won with a cut by lapping the other three airplanes. For about two years I had this wonderful advantage of having the fastest F1 design in the country. But Mr. Jim Katz saw my Stinger at one of the Nats, and the following year built a super fast .15 powered QM and super fast FAI that he raced at the next years Nats. That kind of let the cat out of the bag, and the following year nearly everyone was racing high aspect ratio wings in the USA. However, the rest of the world didn't know about it until our FAI team went out and returned 1,2,3,4. So I guess they schooled our European friends on how to go fast when pulling 30 or 40 g's.

As far as my record holding quickie not being legal. It was when it set the record, but they quickly changed the rules to outlaw that design. The fuselage would be too short by today's rules. I can go through the rule book and find at least 8 or 10 revisions that have been put in place due to some little aspect of finding an advantage that I have done in the past. For instance, back when we ran wood props, I ran a phenolic impregnated wood prop made with thin laminations that was so dense that it would not float in water, was about as hard as metal and could be thinned out so much more than the common maple props that it was good for about 1000 rpm. Flew it at one race in Phoenix, and it was banned by the next season.

I found out that you could run about 1 1/2 blades on a prop (one full length blade, and one half blade) and it would smooth enough (assuming you put the counterbalance of the crank on the right blade) to not fly apart. It was good for about 4 seconds on a 70 second race. Banned.

Almost all quickie today are designed with the widest part of the fuselage at the trailing edge of the wing, since wing fillets are not allowed. I came up with this idea around 1993 or so. It wasn't widely copied until 1998, but is almost universal now. I noticed that ideas that are easy to copy usually don't get banned.


The reason that the record holding quickie was so short (total length from firewall to tail was about 21 inches) was two fold. One, I wanted the tank on the CG of the airplane. Prior to this most quickies had the tank in the nose. This forced the battery pack in front of the tank, and since I didn't know how far back you could have the tank from the engine, it placed the firewall just 1 5/8" in front of the wing. So to get this short nosed airplane to balance, the V-tail was just 6" behind the wing). However with the expanding width fuselage, the air is very well behaved until you get behind the wing, so making the back end of the fuselage as small as possible cut the drag. A bit tough guessing where it would go on takeoff, but very fast in the air.

I love rule book formula events, and quickie especially since the experiments are so easy to carry out. There is always something new to try, some that work, many that don't. I don't get to as many races as I used to, and the eyes are shot. But there are a couple things left to try and some other things that worked in the past still available. It is all about reducing drag.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

They only let him write one column for MA too.

I wonder why?

Love ya Bob!

iron eagel

Wow, you have BTDT!

Funny how that always seems to be the case isn't it?
Now wonder your so adamant about your suggestions.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Thanks for the recap HP. I first got involved with this hobby around 1984 and used to "follow" AMA Pylon by reading the AMA magazine and by getting tidbits from Tom Strom who also was a C/L Combat flyer.
I discovered the benefit of a 1 and a half blade prop by accident and it made the plane look like it shifted into a higher gear.
The way you briefly describe what it took to improve on a previous record can't possibly do the amount of effort and commitment enough justice..I'm sure.
The composite prop idea was pretty clever....[8D]
Now...winning a heat at the level you were racing..with an extra lap thrown in...? After pulling a stunt like that, either YOU owed them a round of drinks...or they owed you a round..or both..?

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Great history there Bob. Some of the best times I have had flying R/C was racing Q500 with you,Jim Kelly, Paul Benezra, Rusty and a buch more great guys who I looked upon as mentors. I hate to break the news to you though but I was running fuses with the widest point at the wing TE back in 1981. Not sure if you remember but it was a 2 day championship race out at the Pioneer field off Great America Parkway. My airplane was cream color with a metalic brown wing. It was an exciting second day, first I had to catch the airplane by the muffler because a lap counter got too close to the runway then in the next heat I midaired. BTW that airplane was a Scat Cat with the fuse flipped to make it a shoulder wing and it originally had a V tail. I ended up cutting it off and replacing it with a standard tail because I could not get the mechanical mixer to center well. After 25 years of helicopters, sailplanes and IMAC I have returned to racing.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

I had raced Bob Smith (Mr. Glue) in the first round. He bought me at the Calcutta auction for $70, and got an 11 to 1 return. A Calcutta was the fastest 13 pilots during the two day contest. The fastest (Shadewell) got to sit out the first round, and the remaining 12 went into 3 heats of 4. Each heat was a racehorse start, unlike the norm of the day with 1,2,3,4 flags. Taking off 4th was about a 1/2 lap penalty over taking off first. I turned a 1;12 against Smith from the 4th slot winning that heat. Bob remembered, but I was considered a very long shot. The preliminary heat had Gary Hover who was one of the fastest guys back then. But he stumbled with the airplane going up on the nose on launch, leaving me to think that this would be easy without him.

The final heat with the three heat winners and Shadel was flown twice. The first time three airplanes double cut (myself, Shadel, and Smith), while the fourth guy got bad air and crashed. So a second final was flown. I cut on the first turn, and forgetting who I was flying against, I told my caller "we got to lap these guys". While my speed at the end of each straight-a-way was about the same, the longer wing killed in the turns. I could go into a turn even with another plane and come out of the turn 50-60 feet ahead with more speed. It turns out that induced drag is inversely proportional to the wingspan squared and in pylon induced drag dominates in the turns where you spend 30% of the flight. Anyway on about the 10th lap as I was closing on the group of three, Shadel and Smith bumped wings and both climbed slightly coming out of turn one. The fourth guy's caller knew I was a lap down and that his guy was now ahead of Shadel and Smith, so they were flying loose and safe around pylons two and three. I came into the final turn tight and got him at the finish line by about 5 feet. My plane was really hooked up and I was in the zone so I kept flying laps, maybe 4 or 5 extra. It just felt too good to stop, but it did confuse the 200 or so in the crowd watching the heat. Naturally half knew I had won, but the other half thought it was impossible to lap anyone in a Calcutta since it had never been done before or after. By the time I had to land, I was shaking so hard that I could barely hold the transmitter - what a rush.

Tom Strom has done it all, and he's faster now than he was 20 years ago. The Northwest gang were great fun at the races with Tom, Tony, Pete, Roy, Don, Andy, and about 10 or 15 others from Washington, Oregon, and Canada. Great times at races up there as well as when they came down to California

iron eagel

Bob,
You are one heck of a descriptive writer! Reading your last post I could here the screaming engines an see the planes jockeying for position.
That was probably the best description of "being in the groove" that I have ever read.
Regards
Paul