klbass

My Feedback: (7)

Just to let everyone know that the folks over at Huntsville, AL have banned 3d flying at their 2004 Big Bird Flyin! There reasons include safety , noise, and most of all lack of interactive flying with traditional flyers. However, on the same note, their definition of "traditional" flying has included jets, warbirds, etc. Is a jet quieter or less dangerous than a 3d airplane??? I think not. Read the letter here:

http://www.rocketcityrc.com/events/2...irdletter.html


My goal with this post is to show how thoughtless, and close minded the decision was made to ban the 3d flying. I hope that more CD's out there can take note of how not to make a decision. THere was no effort made to take on suggestions on how to incorporate a mix of traditional flying and 3d flying together at a large fly-in. To all CDs! out there..... Please ask for suggestions to solve a problem. Don't take the approach that this CD has. His decision has no benefit to anyone in the hobby and certainly not to the young future R/C pilot who wants to fly 3d!

MajorTomski

klbass, the note doesn't appear thoughtless. In fact it appears that they gave it a lot of thought before they created the restriction. If you read the whole note, they are interested in flying that covers some ground so that people can come and see it. True that all forms of RC flying can be boring, including boring holes in the traffic pattern. But at least there can be a traffic pattern. I get board sitting and waiting to fly my scale aircraft because someone is hovering/flipping/ tumbling/ harriering dead center over the runway. Please consider there a lot of us out here that find 3-D boring, bordering on obnoxious due to the way flying it tends to hog airspace.

MTC

Tom

klbass

My Feedback: (7)

Tom, I agree that 3d tends to turn away traditional flyers. I have no problems myself with traditional flyers. I myself enjoy flying a trainer for just boring holes into the sky. But I am also a 3d'r. My point was that you should not ban exclusively a certain style of flying. If you have a problem, take on suggestions to fix it. I can guarantee you that none of the 3d pilots who attended last year's fly-in were asked ....."Guys how can we fix this problem?" I am sure that the 3d guys would be happy to sacrifice time to allow traditional flying to take place. There are hundreds of solutions to this problem. Look at the amount of flying space they have there. They could have easily put the 3d guys on one end, traditional on the other. Or say have flying "block time!" Say 8-10 3d, 10-1 traditional, 1-3 helicopters, etc, etc, etc,. The point is that the CD took the "easy" road out. I look at a CD as a leader. And leaders have to be both open-minded and accommodating to all who fly. There are too many people like this CD who take the "lazy" way out. They don't want to put forth the effort, to fix a problem. They love to complain about problems, but never offer a solution to the problem. Thats just wrong as a CD. I am sure that his decision has turned away a future RC'er who was excited about getting a plane, because 3d was cool to him. I am not sure that his decision is even legal as far as having an AMA sanctioned event.

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

kblass,
do you attend the big bird fly-in? If so you would probably know that the majority of the flying there at that meet tends to be scale subject, at least 70% of them any ways. Additionally, RCRC is one club that I have visited and spent time with that absolutely takes safety to heart. They follow thie rules, let you know what they are, and if you break them, someone will be standing beside you on the flight line telling you whatyou did wrong, and asking you not to do it again. In my opinion, most of the 3D flying that went on there in the past was nothing more than hovering over the runway, complicating an already very busy flight line. I don't advocate evry CD banning 3D, but I will certainly support this CD decision. The usual CD is Chuck Facemire, and he Chuck is a guy who doesn't mind telling you if you are in the wrong. They have a great field and it is a pleasure to fly with them. Don't let their new rule prevent you from going to a great fly-in.
Tommy

rfw1953

My Feedback: (2)

At the conclusion of the 2003 Big Bird event there were a few harsh post placed on RCU pertaining to the conflict that developed between 3-D and the more traditional scale flight styles. As a whole, members of RCRC elected to not respond to such thread comments. It was determined that nothing positive would be gained in doing so. Our President responded once as the voice of the membership. My name is Roger Woodward, and I am the assistant CD for the 2004 Big Bird Fly In event. Unfortunately this topic has come up again. Balancing the information being posted may help those wondering what this is all about.

The history behind this decision: Originally 3-D was welcome, and each year two or three pilots would visit our field and put on a wonderful flight exhibition. Spectators, guest and members were in awe. There was much applause, and usually these pilots were honored with the top awards in recognition for their building craftsmanship. Just as with jet aircraft, or aerobatic helicopters, we usually have two or three flight exhibitions, which include these and other aircraft. When flight exhibitions take place the flight line is empty (as a courtesy) to allow these pilots to showoff their stuff. The members enjoy seeing the exhibitions as well, so the sky is theirs. Whether 3-D, jets, helicopters or giant war birds, these flight exhibitions are usually the high point in the event. Historically they have been the exception during the event and not the main focus of the event.

For years the Big Bird event has been a social gathering of pilots and builders from across the country. This is the one time during the year when members and guest bring out their best. We have been fortunate to witness the work of these fine builders and to see them fly their airplanes. We have also made many new friends along the way as well. This environment has encouraged many to attend this event in the past.

Each year more 3-D pilots began attending and pretty soon what was once a flight exhibition, during the Big Bird event, now became a conflict between traditional scale pilots and a few 3-D pilots. Unfortunately, guest and members didn't want to fly while the 3-D pilots were in the air. We could go on and on as to the rational for this, but nothing would be gained in doing so. I was there and heard several of the discussions as they took place. Furthermore, a few of the scale pilots left the event early. I heard one highly respected builder say as he left frustrated, “if it were up to me I would close this field down�. He made this comment resulting from not being able to hear his own airplane due to the noise from multiple 3-D aircraft hovering near the runway.

Chuck Facemire has been the CD and field chairman for years. He has served on every position in the club and has been one of the strongest leaders/drivers behind the clubs development and evolution. No one puts more hours of hard work into the club/field than Chuck. To call Chuck lazy is an outrage. Yes he has been my friend for years and I don’t mind standing up for him. I am confident the majority of the membership would do so as well. In fact it did.

During the event and after several complaints made by members and guest, Chuck, the event CD, made the tough call to limit flight times between 3-D and traditional scale flying - one hour for 3-D, and one hour and thirty minutes for scale. Time allocations were based on the number of registered pilots flying 3-D and all others. This decision was not made in a vacuum. Chuck discussed the matter with the club President, BOD members and several general members. He held a pilots meeting the next morning and made the announcement to all pilots. A few of the 3-D pilots made a fuss over the decision. There were a few harsh words and that was it. None of the scale pilots objected.

After the event a meeting took place, which included BOD members and active club members. I attended this meeting. The subject of 3-D during the event was discussed openly and objectively. After the conclusion of several meetings on the topic and discussions with club members, Chuck approached the BOD to consider banning 3-D from future Big Bird events. The BOD supported Chuck’s recommendation and decided to put the matter before the membership for a vote. It was unanimous with no votes against. This was a club decision.

3-D has been an open topic of discussion among members for a while. There are many issues confronting our hobby, club and the AMA pertaining to 3-D and other issues. We have not banned 3-D from our club, we have banned 3-D from this event. Maybe one day we will sponsor an extreme aerobatic event, but it’s not on the schedule at this time. This will no doubt affect the attendance for this years event. Our hope is that maybe this one time during the year we can leave 3-D at home and bring an airplane and flying style that fits the event. We do this for the War Bird and Pattern events, so this shouldn’t be that hard to adjust to. Our desire is to encourage those with interest in Big Bird scale, aerobatic, jet aircraft, sport and war birds to attend. We feel confident this topic is not just an issue for RCRC, but one that is being discussed in other clubs as well.

Please respect the decision of our club and come join us this year for our annual Big Bird Fly In event.

Alabama Big Bird Fly In
9-10 July 2004, Huntsville Al.
www.rocketcityrc.com

Sincerely,

Roger F. Woodward
Assistant CD, 2004
Al. Big Bird Fly In

JRozman-delete

My Feedback: (2)

Is seems you should have banned the 3D pilots that were unwilling to comprimise.

Ban the idiots, not the disipline.

Wouldn't that make more sense?

Jess

JRozman-delete

My Feedback: (2)

I think you hit the nail on the head. It is easy to just ban it and wash your hands of it.

Have a good flyin.

Jess

klbass

My Feedback: (7)

Roger, Your response is appreciated. Posting of that response on the club's website may indeed answer many questions. However, I am sure it is a mute point now, but it just doesn't seem that there was enough input from each side to come up with a solution. The CD's ultimate decision was made in-house. Again, I think more effort could have been made directly with the folks involved. I think his decision was the easiest one to make. Just eliminate the problem altogether, rather than "work" towards a solution. Anyway, I'll rest my case with your response, but I definitely think posting of your response on your club's website will ease the pain of seeing "3d-banned" on your website.

Arculis29

As usual, Roger has described the process which led to the CLUB decision in eloquent terms. As usual, Roger has been diplomatic reflecting the gentleman that he is. As for Chuck, he is honest beyond belief, dedicated to our club above all standards, fully supportive of the AMA safety code and painfully disdainful of scofflaws; on the field, in the air and on the highway.
Our decision was made last year, it was announced last year, and will not be changed this year. The big bird event will take place as stated no matter what anyone thinks or says. One may yell, scream, insult, vilify, chastise, criticize or simply sound off behind the anonymity of the net; that is your privilege.
Do as you wish.
However, if you don't like the rules, then don't come to the event. We won't miss you at all.
If you like the rules, then come to the field and have fun with the greatest group of modelers you'll ever meet.
I am Sherwin Arculis, 74 years of age, an RC pilot since 1969, 256 883 9838.

ChuckAuger

My Feedback: (12)

Well, who can argue with that?? More pesky people show up, we'll just ban them. Kudos.

And Sherwin... Great attitude!! With all the great innovations in building and flying RC aircraft that have roots in 3D, but have spilled over into other aspects of RC, it's truely refreshing to see somebody committed to using stone axes and bear skins. Kudos to you, too!!

Oh, my name is Jeff Williams.

bentgear

This is just a little sad. I hope I am not he only 3D fan that does not IN ANY WAY have a problem with the fly in being no 3D. What if at the next ProBro event 45 mustangs show up wanting to make low high speed passes down the runway - all day long.

As long as the rules are published well in advance I think a club should be able to have any restrictions they want. Now if nobody shows up they might rethink everything before they try again.

Ed M.

rfw1953

My Feedback: (2)

The words above equate to a flight attitude. This is what the club voted unanimously to avoid. Yes, the mix of styles does cause a conflict. We agree.

3-D, or 'Extreme Aerobatics', has evolved to become it's own event. We have simply chosen to not have 3-D during our Big Bird Fly In for obvious reasons. As stated, we have not banned 3-D from the field. The club has simply made a decison on how it wants to organize and promote our annual Big Bird Fly In. There are plenty of 3-D, or 'Extreme Aerobatic' events for those who specialize in this style of flying to attend. Please do so. We encourage it. Likewise, please respect our decision just as you would if this were a Pattern or War Bird event.

rfw1953

My Feedback: (2)

klbass, thank you for your suggestion. We have posted the additional information suggested on our website under '2004 events schedule'. Here is the link.

http://www.rocketcityrc.com/events/2...4-BigBird.html

Hopefully this will help others better understand the rational for the decision.

STomic

My Feedback: (31)

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GoldenEagle

My Feedback: (1)

This post is surely a waste of my valuable time, but I feel that a moderate view needs to be expressed.

I have been on both sides of this issue at my local club and at others' fly-ins. While it is true that the two styles of flying do conflict in the congested airspace of a fly-in, there should be means by which they can both be accommodated. It's called planning and RESPECT!

The safety issue is a pathetic excuse for the traditionalist's intolerance of the new and innovative. By far the most prevalent player in most crashes and close calls I've observed are pilots with poor skills attempting to fly their overweight, high powered giant scale aircraft. These types typically only fly once every few months (usually at every fly-in!), refuse to acknowledge their need for sufficient training or frequent practice, and only fly in absolutely perfect weather conditions. They fully expect everyone to clear the sky for them after they've spent an hour running up their poorly muffled gasser in the pits at full throttle. In fact the flight line clears more out of fear than respect!

In contrast, most 3D and precision aerobatic pilots I've seen spend every free day at the field practicing, in varying wind and weather conditions, and with the most sophisticated and reliable equipment available.

Of course there are exceptions to both of these generalizations and clubs should and must help or correct true safety offenders. Outright bans to whole classes of participants (even when they're a minority) are a poor and troubling response.

I practice both sequence and 3D at my field with very little conflict with others. I usually will wait the longest just to get clear airspace, but am frequently caused to abort my flights because of somebody else with less patience.

RCRC can do as they please at their own field but I'll not risk my $2000 - $5000 aerobatic airplanes flying with the type of pilots typically seen at your "Big-Bird" fly-ins.

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

So what you are saying is that because these guys go out and fly everyday practicing their Harriers, hovering or whatever, a club should allow them to hang over the runway in an attempt to gain oohs' and aaahs', at the expense of the other pilots who wish to fly their "overburdened, overweight, lumbering aircraft"? Not that there is anything wrong with that, but to each his own, and I think what RCRC has done is admirable and I think it is something we will see more of this season, especially with increased rules on the CDs from the AMA. They are stating up front that they are encouraging a low pressure fly in for giant scale aircraft, for people to bring their "seldom flown" birds out and fly them without having to comete for airspace over the runway. At the RCRC field, I do not know how they could really address this issue, their is no room for a seperate end of the runway for two styles of flying, it is just not set up that way. They are letting you know up front that they do not want that type of flying AT THAT EVENT, not at their field. Heck, I bet with all of this controversy they will probably have someone in the ranks volunteer to host a just giant scale 3-D event. They are not discouraging this type of flying, they are just saying this is an attempt to make other giant scale fliers more comfortable. Give them a break, these guys are top notch and have a beautiful flying site, one of the best in the Southeast. I have never been by their field when I was not invited to fly, nor given a pass to allow me to use their facility. I wished I lived close enough to be a member. Nobody is questioning the safety of the 3-D fliers, their skills are impeccable, it is just a mixture of the type of flying.
Tommy

bigbri

My Feedback: (287)

Hey guys...it's their event. They have simply chosen the "flavor" they want their event to have, they have not bashed 3-D at all. I wouldn't bring my proflie hots to a scale event nor would I choose to bring my Stuka to a pro-bro event.....Why can't we respect their decision and move on ! To each their own
My 2 cents
B-

GoldenEagle

My Feedback: (1)

It's just the "got a sore toe - chop off the foot" attitude that this decision displays. Bad precedent for all of us.

When it's mainly 3D in ten years, will we ban warbirds?

jnjacksn

I believe the 3D flyers left Huntsville early last year and had no intention of returning this year. The 3D guys are having several 3D only fly ins this year, hence "no warbirds". Hopefully one will be close enough to people wanting to attend. Our club will be hosting an all 3D fly in, and hopefully if we get enough interest, a regular fun fly were we will fly all aircraft. I have no problem with No 3D fly ins as long you don't invite the Extreme Aerobatic Club and then say no to 3D.

Hope you guys have a wonderful time at the Huntsville Big Bird fly in. Thanks for letting everyone know in advance what style of flying will be going on. Maybe one day to you can see fit to have a 3D only fly in as well.

It looks like it may be necessary to split the two evils for now until we can figure out a way for all of us to live together.

rfw1953

My Feedback: (2)

Thank you for your response, Jeremy, and the responses from others supporting our right to make this decision. To Chris, Ed, Jeff and any others who disagree with the clubs decision, let's just say that we agree to disagree. I think an important issue is being misunderstood with attempts to turn this into a personal matter.

Our Big Bird Fly In and 3-D-Extreme Aerobatics, both have evolved to a point where it only makes good sense to separate these events. 3-D was once an exhibition with only a few pilots involved. Not everyone can afford the expense of giant scale 3-D, or has the time and desire to refine flight skills to the levels we have seen demonstrated. In fact, it's amazing what some of you can do with an airplane. (Meant with respect.) Conversely, as with any flight style, there are always the exceptions. Just as with War Bird and Pattern events, 3-D has truly come of age and has the participation and crowd pull to be it's own event. Jeremy and others have stated such as well. Tommy made reference to it not being practical to split the flying field to accommodate both styles during one event (we agree ). Chris is concerned about our Big Bird pilots in attendance and the airplanes they bring. I rest my case. Why make all this fuss? We realize the 3-D guys won't attend and that's ok. We also realize there are others out there who won't attend, or have stopped attending because of the evolving combination of flight styles and the acknowledged conflict over them. Come on guys. Let it go. Disagree with us, which is certainly your right. As Arc stated, don't come. It's ok. We won't be offended. In fact we understand. On the other hand, with all the opportunity to fly 3-D at your's or other sites, and with now 3-D only events being scheduled, please don't try to sabotage an event put on by good people who love the hobby, just as much as you, but maybe in a different way.

Your respect of this clubs decision would be much appreciated by our members.

bentgear

Roger, I hope I am not the Ed you feel disagrees with the club decision (only Ed I could find in the posts above). Do I need to reword what I wrote? I think its great the club announced this far in advance that there would be no 3D. I also have no problem with any club holding any type fly in they would like, just tell folks before they show up.

Ed M.

rfw1953

My Feedback: (2)

Thanks Ed, and understood. No, was not referencing you. I received a PM from another person with the same name. Thank you for clarifying your position though. Very much appreciated

klbass

My Feedback: (7)

To All Who have replied: I think this post has worn out its welcome. I think we can all take something from it though.

CD's: I hope that you can see the damage as a result of this decision. Please keep this post in mind if you ever are faced with a similar scenario. Always, always, always keep ALL of your flyers in the loop as you make a decision. Even if that involves taking on suggestions from the very flyers whom you think are the problem.

3Dr's: The precedent has been set. Expect similer decisions, such as this one, to come in the future from other clubs. Will hovering 100 more yards away from you keep future bans from happening? Probably not. In the interim, all we can do is fly respectfully with those who fly around us. Maybe the AMA can step in and prevent bans on legal maneuvers from taking place again.

Rocket City: Thanks for your responses. They shed light on your decision and will help some to understand why you made the decision you did. However, I feel your response best shows how not to deal with this scenario. Hopefully, in the short future, we will see a big 3d event return to Huntsville.

Moderator, feel free to close this post.

JRozman-delete

My Feedback: (2)

Roger, you are worse than the press. You took a quote out of context from Jeff(Chuck Auger) from a different thread that had nothing to do with this subject at all. You did it to suit your needs in a selfish attempt to justify your argument.

I initially thought you were handling the subject deftly, but now I realize you are just another spin doctor.

"Get your facts first,and then you can distort them as much as you please."-Mark Twain

I am ready for you to dig up some of my quotes from a thread in a forum far off this topic.

Real nice.

Jess Rozman

ChuckAuger

My Feedback: (12)

Roger, your second quote of mine (from a totally different forum) has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with flying styles and is taken ABSOLUTELY OUT OF CONTEXT for this discussion. It has to do with a clash of personalities, based totally on one person's views of what should be posted on internet message boards. IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on 3D vs NON 3D. Please, if you insist on using ANY of MY QUOTES to further your argument, be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN they actually apply to your argument. Thank you.

Secondly, the first quote of mine you saw fit to post was actually pointing out that the fly in in STL IS 3D ONLY!!! THE SAME DIFFERENCE AS NO 3D ONLY!!! The Fly in mentioned was in Nashville, and the mix of flying styles did cause problems...all because the CD didn't confirm 3D only for both days. What was not mentioned is....we, the 3D flyers, made several converts via our friendly acceptance of the non-3D guys. The only shoot down was a non-3D guy shooting down a 3D guy. Although many of us had travelled hundreds of miles to fly 3D, we worked with the locals. We hovered lower, they did low passes higher.

For you to try to dredge up support for your cause by posting snips of my posts, taken out of context from other forums, does not do much to further your cause.

You guys have any format of fly-in you desire. The FLY-IN FORMAT CONFIRMATION was the basis of my first quote. The only difference...we look to the future, not the past.

My first point was, that while it was admitted that 3D was a GROWING PORTION of your fly-in, now it was being banned. Short sighted. That's whay the ProBro events are gaining wide popularity. We cater to the cutting edge, and make it fully known that 3D is the rule, not the exception. We do not anticipate a swell of pattern flyers or warbirds wishing to attend, we have a full slate of 3D.

Second point... Guys like Sherwin who (possibly) enjoy the absolute explosion of technology catering towards large aircraft in the last few years owe it all to 3D!! If warbirds and Cubs were the pinnacle of achievement, the state-of-the-art, then Quadras and Kraft would be all that you see. We enjoy a wide variety of equipment, much more than ever before. I never heard of a 3W engine until the 1996 TOC. Now there are several manufacturers of large engines. And it's not because the warbird guys are pushing for it, trust me.

I support your club's decision to have the type of fly in they are comfortable with, but I'm not a fan of squelching progress for the sake of the good ol' days. I think you will increasingly see a lot more "circle only" or "3D only" fly ins. Just don't use any of my quotes without verifying their meaning and context. Thanks.