Tactics
05-21-2005, 05:48 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Montpelier, OH
Posts: 693
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tactics
I'm kinda new to combat and was just wondering what you veterans thought. Right now we are just gettin started and the most we've ever had in the air at once was 4 planes. As for tactics we all just flew into each other and looped and turned and looped and turned. No real tactics here, just waiting for luck to happen and get a streamer.
Is this basically what everyone does or do the pros have any particular tactics that work better?
Is this basically what everyone does or do the pros have any particular tactics that work better?
05-21-2005, 07:16 PM
#2
Member
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Denver, CO,
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
There are two basic tactics. Just about every round starts out as a "furball". This sounds like what you have described. Call them targets of opportunity, or just plain lucky snags, but when 10 planes are up all with full streamers looping in the middle of the "ball" can score a couple quick cuts. Once the targets decline to only a few streamers (or a couple planes carry the lions share of streamers) it's time to get down to business with the real tactic of pursuit. Pick a target and chase it down hard. Anticipate your opponents moves and don't let them shake you. Many pilots have bad poker faces and repeat the same move over and over again to evade pursuit. The best have so many moves, they are almost impossible to anticipate, but they also MUST stay in the engagement area so they have to change direction some time. Practice matching speed with your target too. If you are alot faster than the target you'll over fly them too quickly and lose out on cuts.
05-22-2005, 05:35 PM
#3
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Waseca,
MN
Posts: 8,456
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
Check this link:
http://www.teamseaholm.com/
Go into RC Combat, and then check out both Aireal and ground tactics. Lots of good stuff.
http://www.teamseaholm.com/
Go into RC Combat, and then check out both Aireal and ground tactics. Lots of good stuff.
05-23-2005, 06:22 AM
#4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Montpelier, OH
Posts: 693
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
Thanks for the tips.
The good thing is that we are all new to combat so nobody has an experience advantage. We are doing another round june 26th that I have to get ready for. My other tactical dilemma is the fact that I have the slowest plane of the bunch. I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage this is giving me. I'm thinking I need to redesign to a much faster plane. Either by airframe design or just upping the motor size. (we have no rules on plane type/ size) I turn quite sharply and loop reasonably well but vertical performance and all out speed is probably 25% less than the next slowest competitor. After a hard turn I need some airspace to get back to speed. While right now the other guys are constantly overshooting me I'm afraid that with a little more experience they will get dialed into my slow speed and I'll be a sitting duck.
Are my fears correct?
The good thing is that we are all new to combat so nobody has an experience advantage. We are doing another round june 26th that I have to get ready for. My other tactical dilemma is the fact that I have the slowest plane of the bunch. I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage this is giving me. I'm thinking I need to redesign to a much faster plane. Either by airframe design or just upping the motor size. (we have no rules on plane type/ size) I turn quite sharply and loop reasonably well but vertical performance and all out speed is probably 25% less than the next slowest competitor. After a hard turn I need some airspace to get back to speed. While right now the other guys are constantly overshooting me I'm afraid that with a little more experience they will get dialed into my slow speed and I'll be a sitting duck.
Are my fears correct?
05-23-2005, 01:03 PM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Manitou Springs,
CO
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
Fly what you are comfortable and confident with and you will get your share of cuts. Build something so fast that you are always struggling to stay ahead of it and you'll be lucky to get any cuts. Ask me how I know...
TiGuy, glad to see you chime in here
rrh
TiGuy, glad to see you chime in here
rrh
05-23-2005, 03:57 PM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Laurel, MD,
Posts: 4,987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
I'd say that furball and persuit aren't tactics so much as the two major styles of flying.
Tactics are HOW you furball and how you persue. (and, of course, there are some cross over between the two styles, depending on the situation. More on that in a moment).
For furball flying, just looping and hoping for a cut is actually a bad tactic, though it's very common. The problem with this approach is that you're relying on luck to get a streamer and not a mid-air. You'll get a few cuts through luck. but you might notice that the other guys always seem "more lucky". It's not luck. There are a number of things you can do in the furball.
The first thing to work on in the furball is looking ahead of your plane and seeing what is coming up. Then you make small corrections so that you come around on a streamer. Set your turn so that half the circle is outside of the furball, and the other side is through the middle. (as opposed to going around the edge of the furball or being entirely inside). Then, as your plane nears the furball, look ahead to see if someoen else is heading towards the same spot you are. Make small corrections, such as more or less elevator, or a small aileron adjustment to pass behind another plane and get it's streamer.
Another furball tactic is to fly horizontal circles instead of veritical loops. Most planes in the furball seem to loop. Going around horzontally can give you a better look at the streamers.
Also, watch the depth. It's often better to furball in an "in-out" direction rather than a "side to side". The reason is that most guys are going "side to side". If you go the other way, you get a better look at their streamers, and you take the depth out of the equation. You can open your turn for a moment to come in or go out a little farther to "find" a streamer for example.
Another furball tactic is to acutally persue in the furball. Pick one plane, and chase them. It helps if you turn tighter than your target because you can get inside then relax the elevator and move out through their streamer. This is actually how I fly SSC, the furball is slow enough that I can pick a single plane and chase them down, even in a 10+ plane furball. In B class, this tactic doesn't work quite as well for me though.
When flying persuit, there are a bunch of different tactics. Mostly, you pick a plane and try to get in to a position you like. The tactics here are what to look for, and how to try to position yourself. AJ's article describes one of the better versions.
I also like to attack on the left side, when a plane turns inwards towards the flight line, I find I get a lot of cuts by starting out beyond my target, then turning inside and getting towards the CEL before they do. It's kind of the opposite of what AJ describes. But I find that from that angle, I can be pretty sure I'm going to get the cut.
Some tactics are for specific situations. When someone goes low, I personally like to get right at their altitude, or a hair lower. Once I have the altitude, I often have time to figure out the depth and make the cut from there. However, when a target it up a bit, I prefer to get a bit above the target and attack downwards in the turn. Many guys wait for the low plane to start a turn, but I often try to get on them on the straight line. It does pay to know who you are chasing though. New pilots almost always "pop up" at the end to turn after a low pass. You can fly along a few feet above them and wait for them to pop up in to you.
In SSC, the power limits mean that some things that work in other classes don't work well, but it also means that some classic fighter pilot tactics that don't do much in the other classes work great. The best example of this is getting up above the furball, orbiting a bit and working it out so that you can dive down and cross someone's tail. The added speed from the dive is often just what you need to pop in on someone who is already occupied with another plane. So I like to look for a plane that is already chasing another plane, someone focused on offense is often easier to cut than someone watching their own tail already.
In most cases, I prefer to chase someone who is about my speed, or who is slightly slower than me. But, if you are slower, there are some things you can do.
I often use a J-hook turn to surprise faster planes that can't turn with me. Basically, I start by passing down the flightline, hopefully drawing someone after me. Then I start a moderate turn, hopefully just about as tight as the other guy can go, but not at my max. As they start to turn with me, I quickly wrap the turn up tighter, and if you keep the turn going for almost 360, and the other guy foolishly trys to follow, you'll have them on the backside. However, if you go to this trick too often against good pilots, they will know what to expect and nail you.
Another tactic is to wait for them to go out wide and turn to come back. Then time your turn to cross behind them as they go by. It's a hard tactic becase you only get 1 shot at the streamer as it goes by, but it can be effective. Another varianet is to go really low or go to mid-height, then do a sharp dive followed by a pop up. Ideally you wait long enough so that the faster plane has done all the hard work and set itself up at your depth, so you just time when to pop up behind them.
Defensive tactics are a whole other story.... Flying good defense is more challenging tatically than flying good offense, that's for sure.
Tactics are HOW you furball and how you persue. (and, of course, there are some cross over between the two styles, depending on the situation. More on that in a moment).
For furball flying, just looping and hoping for a cut is actually a bad tactic, though it's very common. The problem with this approach is that you're relying on luck to get a streamer and not a mid-air. You'll get a few cuts through luck. but you might notice that the other guys always seem "more lucky". It's not luck. There are a number of things you can do in the furball.
The first thing to work on in the furball is looking ahead of your plane and seeing what is coming up. Then you make small corrections so that you come around on a streamer. Set your turn so that half the circle is outside of the furball, and the other side is through the middle. (as opposed to going around the edge of the furball or being entirely inside). Then, as your plane nears the furball, look ahead to see if someoen else is heading towards the same spot you are. Make small corrections, such as more or less elevator, or a small aileron adjustment to pass behind another plane and get it's streamer.
Another furball tactic is to fly horizontal circles instead of veritical loops. Most planes in the furball seem to loop. Going around horzontally can give you a better look at the streamers.
Also, watch the depth. It's often better to furball in an "in-out" direction rather than a "side to side". The reason is that most guys are going "side to side". If you go the other way, you get a better look at their streamers, and you take the depth out of the equation. You can open your turn for a moment to come in or go out a little farther to "find" a streamer for example.
Another furball tactic is to acutally persue in the furball. Pick one plane, and chase them. It helps if you turn tighter than your target because you can get inside then relax the elevator and move out through their streamer. This is actually how I fly SSC, the furball is slow enough that I can pick a single plane and chase them down, even in a 10+ plane furball. In B class, this tactic doesn't work quite as well for me though.
When flying persuit, there are a bunch of different tactics. Mostly, you pick a plane and try to get in to a position you like. The tactics here are what to look for, and how to try to position yourself. AJ's article describes one of the better versions.
I also like to attack on the left side, when a plane turns inwards towards the flight line, I find I get a lot of cuts by starting out beyond my target, then turning inside and getting towards the CEL before they do. It's kind of the opposite of what AJ describes. But I find that from that angle, I can be pretty sure I'm going to get the cut.
Some tactics are for specific situations. When someone goes low, I personally like to get right at their altitude, or a hair lower. Once I have the altitude, I often have time to figure out the depth and make the cut from there. However, when a target it up a bit, I prefer to get a bit above the target and attack downwards in the turn. Many guys wait for the low plane to start a turn, but I often try to get on them on the straight line. It does pay to know who you are chasing though. New pilots almost always "pop up" at the end to turn after a low pass. You can fly along a few feet above them and wait for them to pop up in to you.
In SSC, the power limits mean that some things that work in other classes don't work well, but it also means that some classic fighter pilot tactics that don't do much in the other classes work great. The best example of this is getting up above the furball, orbiting a bit and working it out so that you can dive down and cross someone's tail. The added speed from the dive is often just what you need to pop in on someone who is already occupied with another plane. So I like to look for a plane that is already chasing another plane, someone focused on offense is often easier to cut than someone watching their own tail already.
In most cases, I prefer to chase someone who is about my speed, or who is slightly slower than me. But, if you are slower, there are some things you can do.
I often use a J-hook turn to surprise faster planes that can't turn with me. Basically, I start by passing down the flightline, hopefully drawing someone after me. Then I start a moderate turn, hopefully just about as tight as the other guy can go, but not at my max. As they start to turn with me, I quickly wrap the turn up tighter, and if you keep the turn going for almost 360, and the other guy foolishly trys to follow, you'll have them on the backside. However, if you go to this trick too often against good pilots, they will know what to expect and nail you.
Another tactic is to wait for them to go out wide and turn to come back. Then time your turn to cross behind them as they go by. It's a hard tactic becase you only get 1 shot at the streamer as it goes by, but it can be effective. Another varianet is to go really low or go to mid-height, then do a sharp dive followed by a pop up. Ideally you wait long enough so that the faster plane has done all the hard work and set itself up at your depth, so you just time when to pop up behind them.
Defensive tactics are a whole other story.... Flying good defense is more challenging tatically than flying good offense, that's for sure.
05-23-2005, 03:58 PM
#7
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Montpelier, OH
Posts: 693
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
I have the flying skill to handle a faster plane. Actually when the streamer is attached my current plane slows down a little to much even for my own liking. When not towing a streamer it has a certain amount of additional speed that would probably match me with the next slower guy. I'm just curious if a speed advantage is REALLY a tactical advantage or maybe being slow is possibly a tactical advantage.
05-23-2005, 04:06 PM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Laurel, MD,
Posts: 4,987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
If you have speed, you can throttle down.
In fact, slowing down, or changng speeds at the right time is a great defensive tactic, though there are lots of us who know how to counter it. But even so, it's one more thing to worry about, so it's worth doing.
I find it's nice to be able to gain on someone by a little as you cross the box. A lot of guys fly "defense" by basically making long, striaght runs accross the box, with some kind of turn around at the end. If you are much slower, you get one shot at the streamer at each turn around. If the guy you're chasing is any good, you won't get quality chances then either, since he will be able to use his speed to keep you out of position, even on the turns.
However, if you are just a hair slower, it doesn't matter as much, you can make up the speed by taking a good angle here and there.
As mentioned above though, going too fast is a bad thing too. Even if you can fly the plane around at warp3, it doesn't mean you can fight it at that speed. Just last weekend, I was a bit tired and out of practice with my newest B class ship, and it was really cranking with a new engine setup. Well, it was faster than I expected, and I wound up putting it aside and flying slower planes and flying a lot better and scoring higer that way. (I'll be more ready for the faster plane for the next contest of course. But sometimes it pays to slow down a bit).
In fact, slowing down, or changng speeds at the right time is a great defensive tactic, though there are lots of us who know how to counter it. But even so, it's one more thing to worry about, so it's worth doing.
I find it's nice to be able to gain on someone by a little as you cross the box. A lot of guys fly "defense" by basically making long, striaght runs accross the box, with some kind of turn around at the end. If you are much slower, you get one shot at the streamer at each turn around. If the guy you're chasing is any good, you won't get quality chances then either, since he will be able to use his speed to keep you out of position, even on the turns.
However, if you are just a hair slower, it doesn't matter as much, you can make up the speed by taking a good angle here and there.
As mentioned above though, going too fast is a bad thing too. Even if you can fly the plane around at warp3, it doesn't mean you can fight it at that speed. Just last weekend, I was a bit tired and out of practice with my newest B class ship, and it was really cranking with a new engine setup. Well, it was faster than I expected, and I wound up putting it aside and flying slower planes and flying a lot better and scoring higer that way. (I'll be more ready for the faster plane for the next contest of course. But sometimes it pays to slow down a bit).
05-23-2005, 04:17 PM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Laurel, MD,
Posts: 4,987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
Yes, exactly.
If you fly to the strength of your plane, you can beat guys who arn't flying to the strengths of theirs.
(along those lines, when picking or designing planes, build what suits your way of flying).
I've seen really slow planes just hang out at the high, center of the box, and basically drop vertically on unsuspecting planes that were busy with chasing or being chased by a third plane. Since the slow plane is moving in a differnt direction and at a differnet speed, the odds are the other guys will never see it coming, just *poof* their streamer is gone, and you're running away on the deck to go around, get back up high and do it again. The funniest version of this was a .15 powered PBF-type, flat plate foamie mixing it up with B and C class open planes. We're talking planes that hit 75-80 easy being dropped on by something that had a wingspan of less than 40" and, I think, could maybe hit 40mph in a vertical dive. But he got a few cuts. Not many, but more than you'd expect.
If you fly to the strength of your plane, you can beat guys who arn't flying to the strengths of theirs.
(along those lines, when picking or designing planes, build what suits your way of flying).
I've seen really slow planes just hang out at the high, center of the box, and basically drop vertically on unsuspecting planes that were busy with chasing or being chased by a third plane. Since the slow plane is moving in a differnt direction and at a differnet speed, the odds are the other guys will never see it coming, just *poof* their streamer is gone, and you're running away on the deck to go around, get back up high and do it again. The funniest version of this was a .15 powered PBF-type, flat plate foamie mixing it up with B and C class open planes. We're talking planes that hit 75-80 easy being dropped on by something that had a wingspan of less than 40" and, I think, could maybe hit 40mph in a vertical dive. But he got a few cuts. Not many, but more than you'd expect.
05-24-2005, 06:44 AM
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Montpelier, OH
Posts: 693
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
I think I just want to redesign my current version of a BASIC PLANE. I've built 5 of these each one an improvement over the the first. Unfortunately my last one which I have no pics of is the slowest of them all. (thicker wing/ overall weight is high) First pic is my first foamie that I built last spring. Second pic is simply the wing construction of my 4th plane. My 4th plane actually was the fastest but needed wing reinforcment. (that led to it's ultimate demise)
05-24-2005, 09:37 AM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Laurel, MD,
Posts: 4,987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
In your next design, go for more wing span and a longer aspect ratio. I can't tell what the span and chord is for your plane, but if you look at most combat planes, they have long, thin wings. That's mainly because long, thin wings are more efficient and turn better (even if they roll a bit slower). Also, with sticky stuff on the wings, the longer wing can help get a few extra cuts.
05-25-2005, 06:30 AM
#13
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Holiday City, OH
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
We have not resorted to the two way tape on the leading edges yet but i can see that coming real soon. BTW A, I vote you keep the slower plane, i think it will help you out in the long runs...
05-26-2005, 07:03 AM
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Montpelier, OH
Posts: 693
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
Is the whole depth perception thing something that you learn? Several times I've sworn I was gonna get a streamer and missed, (probably by several feet). Can 2 guys practice this, say by just following one another in long circles just to get accustomed to the view?
05-26-2005, 08:46 AM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Laurel, MD,
Posts: 4,987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
Yes, it can be learned by most, but not everyone. Some guys get it natually, some guys pick it up over time, and some never do.
Part of the tactics of flying combat is to make your depth perception less important.
For example, flying along right at the near edge of the combat box, then turning outwards allows you to look at the back of your plane. If you fly the plane to a streamer from that angle, and you hold it on the streamer long enough, eventually you will cut it, no matter if you're dept perception is way off. Of course, the better your depth perception, the less time you have to keep your plane lined up with the streamer you want to cut.
Most of the other really good attacks work along the same lines, narrowing down the depth so you don't have to get it exactly right.
Part of the tactics of flying combat is to make your depth perception less important.
For example, flying along right at the near edge of the combat box, then turning outwards allows you to look at the back of your plane. If you fly the plane to a streamer from that angle, and you hold it on the streamer long enough, eventually you will cut it, no matter if you're dept perception is way off. Of course, the better your depth perception, the less time you have to keep your plane lined up with the streamer you want to cut.
Most of the other really good attacks work along the same lines, narrowing down the depth so you don't have to get it exactly right.
06-01-2005, 06:33 AM
#16
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Montpelier, OH
Posts: 693
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Tactics
Thanks for all the tips. They should help me score a little higher on the 26th than I did the last time. (yes I'll admit, I was dead last) I've started on my new streamer stealin machine and have high hopes that it's gonna be much better. 60" X 10" at cord 6" at tips with 1 1/2" ailerons. Gonna make a shorter fuse than prior planes (I'm thinkin 32" or 36") and I'm hopin for 4.lb end result but I doubt it with a .40 engine. I'll post a couple pics as I go.
06-15-2005, 10:38 AM
#18
RE: Tactics
As stated before, a fast plane, a highly manueverable plane, a sensitive plane, are not a good thing. I've flown AJ's planes before and went home to turn my roll rates down. Something pitch sensitive has to be maintained at all times. You really want a plane that you can leave alone and look at the other planes with. Fly with your perifery vision on your plane and your targets in your sight. Make your plane a tad nose heavy and put a big elevator on it to yank it around. It'll loop tighter before snapping that way. I've never been able to process Teamseaholms method of pursuit tactics. I can visually pick up whats happening but I can't process speach fast enough, neither can a call for him as I can't get the words out before the situation is gone. It does take practice and he excells at it so I'd give it a try, but don't be afraid to give up on it. A big, longwinged plane is ok, but if it costs you too much, takes too much time to build or for some reason gives you an emotional bond to it, you won't be as willing to commit with it. SPAD's are cheap and non-emotional. They don't take much time to build and take one heck of alot of punishment. There are more active, tighter turning and longer winged planes out there, but to get started with they are hard to beat.
Fly inverted over the action and pull down into the stagler, or when someone is chaising you, roll inverted and push an outside. If they start to follow you pull inside hard and quick. KNOW how tight you can turn at full throttle and do it. I pracitce cuban 8's as low as I can get to become comfortable with this. I also found out how less tight my scale planes were turning this way when I planted a zero to the wing root trying to evade a guy. Practice high speeed low flight, learn to trim the weeds and think nothing of it. Then learn just how tight you can turn while doing that. Cartwheels out away from the safetyline do you no good, I know from experience. Practice SLOW flight. I suckered a couple folks into their demise by dragging my streamer in the bean field. They'd fly by, I'd pop up and back down with their streamer on my wing.
Use your throttle! Don't fly past a guy and offer him your streamer.
When all else fails or your blood gets too high, show em nothing but prop.
Fly inverted over the action and pull down into the stagler, or when someone is chaising you, roll inverted and push an outside. If they start to follow you pull inside hard and quick. KNOW how tight you can turn at full throttle and do it. I pracitce cuban 8's as low as I can get to become comfortable with this. I also found out how less tight my scale planes were turning this way when I planted a zero to the wing root trying to evade a guy. Practice high speeed low flight, learn to trim the weeds and think nothing of it. Then learn just how tight you can turn while doing that. Cartwheels out away from the safetyline do you no good, I know from experience. Practice SLOW flight. I suckered a couple folks into their demise by dragging my streamer in the bean field. They'd fly by, I'd pop up and back down with their streamer on my wing.
Use your throttle! Don't fly past a guy and offer him your streamer.
When all else fails or your blood gets too high, show em nothing but prop.
