Mikel-t

My Feedback: (12)

I've been looking through the Market-Place Ads for a large glow for a 81" scale plane. I can't get a grip on how people price their items. For example a NEW four-stroke like the O.S. 120 ( no pump) from T.H.'s is like $340. So if someone says N.I.B. OS-120 for $280 sounds reasonable, however, if the Ad says less that 6 hours flying time, why would that be worth $250.? OR same engine with "Less than 2 gallons run-thru" be worth $275. ?

This gets more complicated if the engine is a Saito or YS. Clearly the YS Owners feel that RUN-TIME is actually a bonus,therefore their prices remain relatively high.

NOTE: I AM ASSUMING THAT THESE MARKET-PLACE ADS HAVE HAD NO ACCIDENTS , PROP-STRIKES, ETC. AND SELLER'S ARE 89% TRUTHFULL.

SO: At what point ( in terms of hours of operation) would an "Almost-New" engine be worth 90%-80%-70%-60% of retail. OR "buying a used engine is always a bad idea!"

Thanks, Mikel-T

Sturtz

My Feedback: (20)

I would rather buy a slightly used engine that has been broken in correctly and been proven to stay running in the air,,,,, than a brand new engine that I must spend the money, time and fuel to get through the break in proccess. Then you must fly it.
I just had a bad deadstick today with my Edge540,, running a Super Tigre G2300. Have been running tank after tank through it for the last few weeks. (Because they say you must to get it to start running solid.) It was running perfectly. Good midrange transition. Good fuel flow with the stock muffler and carb throughout the range of the tank. (Perry pump helped.) You could hold it upside down or vertical with no change in idle or high rpm. I even ran it a tad rich to compensate the altitude leaning for the maiden.
Well,,, should I even go on with this ? You know what happened. About four laps around the field , pointed in the wrong direction of course and complete engine failure. Got it turned around into the wind but it got too slow and came in hard and flat. Ruined a brand new hi-torque rudder servo and shoved the pants through the foam core wings. A new servo and a little work and it will be flying again. But it will NOT HAVE THAT P.O.S. G2300 in it I can assure you. A barely broken in Saito 150 sits there in my parts drawer. Why the h-ll didn't I mount that in the first place ? Rarely have any of my 4-strokes died in air other than running it out of fuel or snapping it so hard the clunk got stuck.

So yes,,,, if I could be 100% certain that I was getting exactly what I was paying for . I would pay more for an engine that had been broken in first. I'm not talking about these guys that sell their Saitos and YS motors right before they need a major overhaul. I'm speaking of the veteran RC guys that buy a new motor,,, break it in by the book. Then fly it a few times and decide that their project needs a differant power plant for their needs. Warranty is still good and you know what your getting.
All the big engine companies should offer a (PRE RUN IN OPTION). Clear a work table,,, strap those engines that had been pre-paid on and start running fuel through them. Those that like to spend the money on retail priced fuel and do the break in themselves could still do so.

Sorry,,,, I got a bit carried away. And probably didn't help answer your questions anyway.

65 Chevy

My Feedback: (1)

Ya know, this very issue came to mind today as I was brousing through the engine ads in the market place section. Its very difficult to understand how these people arrive at their ideas of an engines worth. When you are the buyer, the engine inquestion is made from gold. There is absolutely no wear and depreciation in an entire season of flying (1 to 4 gal of fuel through the thing). But, when your the seller, every engine is junk, had loads of problems with the design and is worth absolutely nothing. I have been doing this now for only 6 years, but Saitos and OS's are the next best thing since sliced bread and mobile computers if you are the seller, and as old, outdated and poorly designed as a 58 Edsel. Then again, a seller never lies, overexadurates (sic) streches the truth or otherwise misrepresents that item, and as we all do, has marked down every ounce of fuel, every tenth of an hour flying time and every less than perfect landing that an engine or airplane has ever experienced.

Sorry for the rant, but buying used always seems to be such a hassle and potential ripoff.

Mikel-t

My Feedback: (12)

Sturtz, great idea, I would go for that option if HH sold my Saito 100 to me with 1 or 2 hours on it. I guess I'm asking a rhetorical question because every Seller wants top dollar and every Buyer's want a bargain. But! The market (or buyer) should determine what your, car, house, engine is worth by what the Buyer's will offer. If your selling your XYZ engine for $20 over the list price because it has been broken-in correctly and you will guarantee the engine for 90 days...then you might get it. I really wanted to know if an almost-new engine has 2 hours on it then take off 25% , if it has 10 hours on it then take off 40%...maybe , I dunno.

I also don't know why you took that chance breaking in an engine with a nice plane like that Sturtz, you sound mad...................at yourself. Mikel-T

Fly Nexstar

Alright I have a question, I have a FA -56 Saito to sell, paid 179.00 new its 6 months old had 3 gal of Cool Power 15% ran trough it, spinner and 2 props, and yes it has dead sticked once or twice, what would you say its worth to someone?

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

It's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

piper_chuck

My Feedback: (12)

I refuse to buy second hand engines from strangers unless I can the engine in person. Too many people are giving worn out engines the antifreeze treatment and then trying to pass them off as barely used.

Jim Thomerson

I once read a statement by a knowledgeable person that 85% of the used engines sold had less than one hour's running time. If you know about engines and can fix stuff, used engines can be a good deal. If you don't know engines only buy new or from someone you know and trust.

Fly Nexstar

I see the first guys point, just got off market looking at engines, all said new and priced new or more, oh well I am selling all my stuff for 200.00 in a bundle deal, it will be great for someone, even if they don't trust me it will be good deal. I don't trust anyone either but hate to just dump the stuff in the trash.

Mikel-t

My Feedback: (12)

Piperchuck , I think on the whole, people that use the marketplace are honest. I say that because I have bought several expensive planes there and every Seller has been truthful and helpful long after the sale. I say that because this really is a closed community and the people in this sport/hobby are "Do'ers" not 'Watcher's" very creative and almost always proud of what they are buidling, flying and SELLING. If that was'nt the case you would have no RCU. What better place to learn and see the pride of craftmanship than here at RCU. Now if you were to ask me would I buy an expensive piece of machinery from my local "Baltimore Classified's" I'd say, "Not on your life" . So I would have to agree with Jim, that for the most part what is being sold here is pretty much what it is. My ORIGINAL question though was: " Placing a value on used engines" would you say that the average amount of time that a XYZ engine is at it's most usefull life is between hour 1 till 30? then after that it is'nt worth 50% of the original value....would that be a good standard to use?

depfife

My Feedback: (14)

Chuck is right. We are taking a risk when we buy a used engine from a stranger. Understanding that, I still buy used engines from strangers. I don't think there is a formula to use that will give a fair price for a used engine based on its run time. An engine might be in great shape after 20 hours, and the engine of the same make and model might be on its last leg with half that run time. Some sellers are in a hurry and will sale at a great price. Others are in no rush and want to get top dollar.

Like buying a used car, some common sense and good luck are required to find a good deal.

Dr1Driver

My daddy always said the price on any item can be calculated this way:

The selling price is what a man who doesn't want to sell and a man who doesn't want to buy agree on.

Caveat emptor...

You get what you pay for, most of the time.

Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer cherce.

Dr.1

RCVFR

My Feedback: (7)

That would be the "asking" price. The "selling" price is what a willing seller and willing buyer agree on.

Fly Nexstar

Sounds to me like I'd do better on Ebay.

j.duncker

My Feedback: (2)

I rarely sell good engines.

I might sell an average engine on Ebay.

If I had a ruined engine - lean run - peeling liner - partially stripped threads - rumbling bearings - just wore out I like to think I would never sell it even on Ebay.

Are you that ethical? many clearly are not.

Caveat emptor - let the buyer beware!

Dr1Driver

I've bought many R/C items on eBay and not been burned once (knock on wood). It may happen on the next purchase, you never know. If there are GOOD pictures, a reasonable explanation for selling, and a good price, then it's probably as described. When I say "good" price, I don't mean the guy is giving it away. If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is, and I'd start looking for problems with it. If you know what you're looking for, and know what you're looking at in the pictures, you're probably ok.

"Caveat emptor" still applies.
Dr.1

MrMotor

I have a rule of thumb to use on engines. If the engine is near new it is worth 1/2 of original "list" price to a second owner. Warranties are normally NOT transferable. Useage and condition lowers the price from there. Examples: Saito FA 56 list price is $279.95 less 1/2 equals $140.00 for a near new engine. Physical condition and useage will lower the price from there. An OS LA 40 list price is $94.99 becomes $47.50 to a second owner for a near new engine.

Fly Nexstar

Thats good, I planned to ask 100.00 for the FA 56 and 100.00 for the optic 6 with the spectra and 645 servos 8 ch re, several cables glow plaus starters and some other stuff. Thanks for the info.

DarZeelon

Paul,


That "list" price you refer to is a hoax; a big 'nothingness', which is there only to make a dealer look as if he is giving you a ~50% discount...

The 'street price' is the actual figure you should pay for a full warranty, brand new engine, from a dealer/hobby shop.

50% of the 'list' is the actual cost of a new engine.

This price is what you actually see in the Tower/Horizon/Central Hobbies/Whatever... web site.
The [link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXBY18&P=ML]OS.40LA is $59.99[/link] and NOT what you wrote!

A NIB engine sold by the original owner should be about 75%, since there is no implied warranty.

A 'barely used', 'only test stand break-in' engine should fetch no more than 55-60% of its original street price.

An engine with a 'couple of hours'; no more than 45%... Usually less.


...That is if the seller is not lying to you... Then it is worth much less.

The problem is that buyers on eBay are not behaving too wisely...

If the bid is beyond engine's value; no more bidding! You would be stupid if you bid more than its value...
But then, there is always someone even more stupid...

MrMotor

Dar
In other words you feel that the OS example is worth a whole $2.50 less than my rule of thumb. I don't know where you can purchase the LA for that price you quoted because there would be shipping or sales tax added too. My formula also applies to most engines of any brand and if you feel I should use lower numbers different percentages could be figured. It's just easier to use 50% of list because the number is always available and you don't have to try and find some special sale pricing. Do you also feel the Saito price is too high also for a resale of a new engine? My defination of a near new engine is one that was sold to a consumer that changed his mind and wants to resell the engine after looking at it for a short period of time.

phastfred

New, used, or bare bones, an engine is worth what you are willing to pay for it. That is determined by what you need it for, availability, suitable alternate choices, whether you can get replacement parts for it, and whether or not you have the expertise to repair it yourself. A formula is what you use in mathematics, or feed to babies. If you can get it into your hands, you should be able to tell if it is in decent shape, (but in a time when many need others to set their needle settings, even that won't help some of us). Many sellers are willing to sell on your approval, with return priviledge, if not beware! Been Mecaing, and Ebaying for 5 yrs., over 700 transactions (both ways), with only 3 bad products. We are lucky that our hobby attracts a pretty good group of people, and the bad ones are found out pretty quick.
Phastfred

Silvaire

My Feedback: (50)

Paul,

If the "street price" were a consistant percentage of "list price" for every manufacturer and engine, your logic would be sound. However, some brands of engines sell new for close to "list" (particularly those with limited distribution and/or high reputation), while other brands are deeply discounted. Even within a particular manufacturers list pricing, some engines of a very popular class may be "value priced" to be more competetive. When retailed, these popular engines are usually not discounted as much from "list" as other engines from the same manufacturer.

Another twist of the pricing game: some knockoff copies of quality engines are "list priced" at a price similar to the list price of the engine that they copied. These copycats probably do this to imply that their engines are of equal quality to the original product. Obviously, in the real market these copycat engines do not come close to selling for the same percentage of their "list price" as the original manufacturers engines.

To bottom line it, in my opinion NEW STREET PRICE is the only valid original price consideration when trying to come up with a yardstick to try to determine the value of a used engine.

Arlen

DarZeelon

No. Your theory in the previous post is based on $95 and I say it should be based on the street price of $60.

Half of that, i.e. $30 would be a reasonable price to pay for a used LA engine.

Shipping also applies to items bought on eBay.
Sales tax also applies within your state.

Someone selling 4,800 items on eBay is not just a modeler selling un-needed items. It is a vendor.

So, if paying nearly full price, it should have a warranty and be sold outright by a dealer.

If the list price is the street price, let it be, but the street price is usually about half...
So paying half of 'list' for an engine on eBay, you would be paying the same as you would to Horizon/Tower... for a new engine...
Why bother bidding? Just buy the engine new from a dealer, with warranty.

Your definition is what is known as NIB. It is worth less because it carries no warranty (and even less if it has been discontinued by the manufacturer, as some are...).

EBay is a good place to get top Dollar on what you sell; usually not a good place to buy...

65 Chevy

My Feedback: (1)

Dar,
I must say that your opinion of EBAY buyers and sellers is quite a bit off base. I am and have been a dealer on Ebay in a different genre. The competition is very stiff on Ebay which makes sure that the pricing on Ebay for most of us that make their living on Ebay is close to wholesale just to compete. There are MANY new sellers out there that are selling on a 3 to 10 dollar profit margin. These are the ones that hurt all of us. Most of us reputable dealers offer warranty registration, receipts, have return policies similar to a retail store, and stand behind our products.

LOOK AT THE FEEDBACK. I personally have a feedback rating of 8500 positive feedbacks and 99.9% positive. Actually I have had only 5 negative feedbacks in all that time.

Most of us are selling a very good product, just like you LHS, Complete with warranties and and receipts.

I do believe that there are many good deals to be had both on Ebay and through RCU and other club and message forums. But the potential for being burned by the !QUOT! Its almost new... Not even broken in.... Only had a gallon of fuel through it...!QUOT! descriptions is very high.

I for one would rather buy a used engine from a reputable dealer than a private party that I do not know.

OK so I am off on a rant again.... Sorry.

EBAY IS BY FAR one of the best on-line market places that you will ever find... as is RCU

Dr1Driver

Step back 20 paces, unzip and let fly, boys!

There are many exceptions. I'm building a giant old timer for my wife to learn to fly on. I'm putting a modern Saito 90 on it. However, I would have LOVED to have found a good condition older Webra .80, the type with the exposed rocker arms. What would I have paid for it? Quite a bit more than either of your formulas say it's worth.

I bought an OS .25DF last year off eBay. NIB. I paid a bit over what your formulas say I should have. Why? I have a HOB DF F-86 that needs it, and it's OOP at OS. Supply and demand worked here.

I have bid on many engines on eBay and stopped bidding well short of what your formulas say. Why? That particular engine wasn't worth that much to me.

Three situations where no formula would have worked. Formulas are good for classrooms, but often don't work in the real world.

Selling price is what a seller and buyer agree on. It will vary from item to item, situation to situation, and even from time to time. How many times has someone walked around a swap shop, looking at an item over and over, and thinking the price is too high. Finally, as the day wears on, the guy goes back and buys it for the asking price. No formula applicable there.

Dr.1

PS When I sell somethnig, I ask $50. I'll get $40. I would have settled for $30. That gives me some bargining space. When I buy something, I offer $30. I'll pay $40. It's actually worth $50 (to me). It's called haggling, and you gotta know your merchandise and the demand in your area. You also gotta be willing to pay a little too much for something you REALLY want, or walking away empty-handed when the price goes too high for a mundane item.