ckangaroo70

My Feedback: (51)

They just unlock them long enough for me to run my big yapper for awhile, and then hopefully close it back up before anyone else can get a word in edgewise! Has something to do with me having to always have the last word, as my wife tells me! Just Kidding Jim!

The topic here is a pretty good, and if you sift through some of the off topic post(some of mine included), there is a worthy debate to be had here as long as people(myself included) don't resort to fighting and name calling! Nothing wrong with good healthy debate as long as it is done in a civil manner, and nobody's momma gets brought into the arguement!

exeter_acres

My Feedback: (2)

I really don';t see the dilemna???

yes, the pilot should be a US citizen... I competed at the National level in Alpine skiing...we had to be US citizens..... it really isn't that tough..

I don't care how you become a citizen... born, naturalized, whatever... but yes, US citizen it should be......

J_R

For those that have no idea what FAI CIAM involves, here is a small taste posted Dave Brown on the AMA website earlier, in March 2005.
http://www.modelaircraft.org/FAIreport.asp

Getting changes made in a world wide organization, which you are only a small part of is difficult, at best. Keep in mind that the AMA is just a small part of the FAI in the United States to start with, then all the other countries of the world must be taken into account as well. As Dave pointed out in his post, before you can go to the entire world, you must convince all the other disciplines within areomodeling, and then the other groups within the NAA to go along.

Chip, do you hold dual citizenship in the US and Japan?

Does it occur to anyone that F3A was viewed as a “qualifier� until after 2002? Anyone know why? What is the real concern that was never a concern before? Do you really believe this is over citizenship? I think not.

A statement was made earllier that one could attempt to compete for two countries in one year if enough money was spent. This is not true. Residence must be established for one country. It would then be three years, under the present rules, before an individual would be able to establish residencny for a second country. No amonnt of money changes that.

dandk2261999

I am willing to bet he doesn't because the US does not recongnize dual citizenship

exeter_acres

My Feedback: (2)

Then what is it??

J_R

Excerpt from US State Department (link below) along with another link on citizenship by the State Department:

“Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.�


http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1753.html

http://travel.state.gov/family/famil...birth_593.html

jlkonn

My Feedback: (1)

JR,
Hey can I can a credit for that post back on #76?

Also, what did your F3A qualier post mean?
Thanks!
JLK

Roll On 60

In reply to dandk2261999, post 119. The information you received is incorrect.
I am Army retired and my wife and I (both US citizens) had a child born in Japan. Several years later when stationed at Fort Huachuca, AZ (yes, the same place you are stationed) we were very surprised to learn that we could not prove our son was a US citizen because we were given a certificate of birth NOT a birth certificate at the time of his birth. After checking with JAG, we discovered that we had to complete several forms, travel to Phoenix and mother father and son had to appear before a federal judge, swear that he was our son and answer several questions, send all approved paperwork to Washington, DC to the state department and wait for about 3 months. We received a large document from the state department, with a red seal, stating that our son was a US citizen but that we would need this document to prove it should he seek certain jobs. It still gripes my --- that we as US citizens had to do go through all of that, yet illegals who have children here are automatic US citizens.

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

Ya know, I voted yes, but I wasn't clearly thinking here. Ya see. I was born in England. I moved here when I was 3. Now I am 34. I don't feel English. I don't speak with and English accent. Matter of fact. You would never know that I was English unless I told you. And lots of people don't know if they should believe me when I do tell them. So yes I think you should be from the U.S. But, I for one would proudly represent the u.s and hope to do so someday.
Think about this. In the Olympics do we have people who are of other ethnicities?
Anyhow. I do understand where this come's from Chip. Hope you come fly some California contests this year...
Krishlan

John Redman

My Feedback: (8)

Interesteing post guys.

I to believe it would be nice to say that you have to be a citizen to compete on a US World team, but there are a number of people here who have lived here for years and have not become citizens because of what it takes to do so. Right or wrong, this isn't the point of this argument. The US doesn't have a problem sending non- US citizens off to fight a war to maintain freedom for our country and each of you. For the few who might not have got it, you do not have to be a US citizen to serve in the US military, regardless of what your position might be (from a grunt in the trenches to fighter pilot, to a comander of forces).

I believe this has some weight to it. All US citizens on the team would be great, but if they live here, work here, and pay taxes, etc. then they should have the ability to represent this country if they have the talent and win the spot.

Boy, guys are going to hate me for this one.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Not at all. Very good post with lots of merit.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Great post John. I think it pretty much sums it up that if you're good enough to die for this country, you're good enough to fly for it. (and that even rhymes !)

Gordon

Kevgofly

My Feedback: (2)

John,
I agree with everything you said. A person who comes to our country through any legal means and serves our great nation deserves all the rights of any citizen. Our military has also streamlined the process for a person serving in the military to get his or her citizenship and rightfully so.

My concern is that a world level competition which can do so much good on a world level by bringing people together will become so commercialized that it does more harm than good (and I think we have already seen this happening). As it is now, there is little to keep manufacturers and distributors in the United States from "recruiting" from abroad to load the "ringers" to promote their products. I know this smells of illusions of grandeur.

So I propose this scenario, flyer A has come to the united states as a young child. He and his father spend weekends flying together and he goes through the process of becoming a naturalized citizen. He joins the military when he is 18, serves 8 years, gets out, and settles down with his family in Nebraska. He continues to fly and goes to the team trials but is just bumped out by flyer "B". Flyer "B" was born in France. He grows up there with his very privileged family. He and his father also fly RC planes and he becomes very skilled. Some years later he is approached by a major US distributor and asked to move to the USA were he will be paid to fly RC airplanes. After 3 years residing in the United States, he is eligible to try out at the team trials and makes the team. He goes on to finish.... whatever at the worlds and he's plastered in every RC magazine as "won the worlds using brand X". Did flyer "B" deserve the shot as much as "A"? I don't have a problem with either guys representing our country, just not sure it's the right thing to do. It's similar to when the Olympics allowed "pro" basketball players to compete. To me it just lost something when that happened, end of the innocence if you will.

Now, realistically speaking, this is going to happen, I don't think we are ever going to stop it. Any time there is a dollar to be made, the commercilization will follow. I just don't think we should make it easy.

Kev

ckangaroo70

My Feedback: (51)

Nobody is going to hate you! You are entitled to your opinion. The only thing I would have to say about what you said is that I feel the U.S should bypass all the red tape, and allow quick citizenship for those who join the U.S Military. That is a whole other arguement, and really does not apply to a Worlds Sport Competition. This isn't about disrespecting or being ungratefull to those who have fought for the U.S that are not citizens, and I have great respect for those people. This is simply about a Sporting Team representing there country in a world contest. I look at it as just being good sportsman, because I do believe like someone stated previously in here that you would have large countries like the U.S stacking the deck in there favor just to get a win! Smaller countries that may have a few good pilots would get bought with promises of endorsements, sponsorship, etc. to come try out(compete) to be on the U.S Team. Some sporting contest should be about money, buying the best players,etc etc., but a World Contest should simply just be a contest that puts the best teams and individuals against each other in good sportsmanship!

John Redman

My Feedback: (8)

I understand your thoughts on this, but where I am left sitting I don't really understand where the problem lies. For the arguments sake I am going to go out on a limb and use Quique S. as an example. I know him quite well and we are very good friends. He has flown since he was a young boy. He and his father flew together and shared something that some of us have had, and others have missed out on. He had the personal will to be the best. Chip Hyde also carries this will as we have all seen as do many others. (please don't get mad Chip, just using you as an example here)

He flies and becomes very, very good. He moves to the states to start a better life for his family and is fortunate to be picked up by Futaba. Somewhere in the mix he changes to JR. (Both systems are great, lets not start the Ford/Chevy thing). I do not know if he was paid by Futaba. I do know he does get paid by JR out of Japan. This is for his consulting, and not to "fly" model airplanes. There are other programs from the manufacturers for that.

He has his own business going here in the states and is doing good in the business world. He competes just as every other precision aerobatic guy does and he flies 5 - 6 flights a day. That is better than 1850 flights a year. Model airplanes are his life blood. He loves them more than life itself. I believe you will find Chip operating under the same attitudes. He had the very fortunate lifestyle with his father growing up flying and such. Chip loves model airplanes more than life itself as well. Both of these gentlemen have a gift.

Quique considers himself as much American as Chip does. I believe both of these gentlemen have the right to represent the US at any world competition. To believe that someone here "deserves" the position more because he was born here seems to me to be very closed minded. This is America correct? The Great American melting pot, correct? We all came from far away lands many, many years ago, correct? Guys, the concept of living in the United States is as great today as it ever was, if not more. I believe we call it freedom. To just bring in someone to win the world's is wrong, I totally agree. I do not believe any manufacturer or person/group has ever doen that. But if they live here, raise a family here, cohabit-ate with us here, then by god they have the same right as anyone here to represent what they love, a country that they have come to call home.

I believe we should send the best, period. The two gentlemen listed in this post are two of the best this planet has ever seen when it comes to mixing the sticks, bar none. If there was a hall of fame for model airplanes both would be sitting at the front of the line. Chip might be first as I still remember watching him holding a single stick radio at the age of 5 flying at an event in California City (god where is that) and showing the world that he was great back then!! Do you remember that event calle dthe Hitachi Desert Classic back in 1977 Chip? And I challenge you to find someone who should not have been on a past world team because they didn't have the talent. There probably are a couple, but maybe they are the best we have.

Kevgofly

My Feedback: (2)

John and all,
PLEASE, LET ME BE CLEAR, my example above was meant to be only hypethetical. I am as sincere as I can be about that. I was not even thinking of QQ when I typed that. My point was not of anyone speciffic but purely a fictitious example of where this could lead, but I see how the conclusion would be drawn, I should have been more clear. I have had the honor to meet and fly with Quique and think the world of him. I can think of no better person to represent our great country. Quique is a perfect living example of what the U.S. is all about, land of opportunity. I'm not aware if Quique is a citizen, resident, or whatever, but I know if anyone should be welcomed into our country with open arms it's him. I do know he had waited a couple of cycles to even be elegible for a world team. He is a very gifted human being has has been an inspiration to me (and countless others) for many years and above that he is one of the finest human beings I have ever had the priviledge of knowing. And who can argue Chip's credentials? I could tell storries of times I've been priviledged to see him fly in some of the worst conditions I've ever flown in and make it a thing of beauty.

I have no idea the deals either of these guys have with any manufacturer or distributor, I would not speculate on it, nor do I care. Whatever they have or will receive, they both have earned it. My only intent above was to point out the obvious direction this will travel.

So why is it a problem? It really isn't a problem, it's just going to make it easier for big buisness to weasel their way into something that should be much more pure. But like I said earlier, nothing we do will prevent that, it's just a matter of time. If you were the American born and raised guy who worked your tail off to get the world level and ended up missing your shot because a guy was recruited and paid to come to the states for the sole purpose of representing a company at the world level, it would likely be pretty disheartning. Several ways you could go with this, are we after the people who can be most likely to bring home the gold for us, or the equal oportunity to compete, or maybe the fairest oportunity to offer citizens of the USA to represent their country?

If anyone took my earlier post to be in reference to any particular person, I sincerely apologize, it was never meant to be.

Kev

John Redman

My Feedback: (8)

Hey Kev, I might have come across a bit intense as I reread my post. That was not the intention at all. I used Quique and Chip as they are the two that had been spoke of earlier in this thread, not because of your post. I can see how it would look that way, but not hte intentions.

Being recruited and paid to sit on a world team I am totally against as well. I believe I stated that in my last post, but it could very easily been lost in the long writings. I believe we are on the same page here as well as most. It does appear as though a few think otherwise and so be it.

The one part where a "world class competitor" might not be able to make the team is where he lives literally on the other side of the country and cannot make the team trials based on time off of work and cost to and from the events.

I know what it takes to hit events across the country each year, it ain't cheap! For the first time this last year I made it to Top Gun and did pretty well in team scael. The cost of the trip was over $8,000 for the entire deal. Thank god we had a sponsor to help us out. I believe this might be the real culprit in why we don't have all of the best piltos making out for the team trials more than anything. I don't have any idea as to how to fix that, but I have planted a few money trees in my backyard, unfortunately they haven't sprouted yet.

Kevgofly

My Feedback: (2)

John,
Thanks for the response, not your fault at all, I just didn't want anyone to think I had it in for QQ or Chip, I have too much respect for both to let there be a chance of that. Like I said, I should have been more clear in my first post.

You are absolutely correct about the travel expenses, I was fortunate enough to make ti to Muncie this year with a couple of 40% planes, all the way from Seattle, so I fully understand what your talking about. It's tuff and I feel very luccky to have had the oportunity.

I've heard of other countries teams being funded by the government so when you look at what our teams are up against, we have so much to be proud of and I'll always support our guys however they are chosen.

Kev

abel_pranger

Ray-

As you said, it isn't on topic, but here it is anyway. There is a small concession made to those non-citizens that serve out an enlistment in the US Military. The waiting period for citizenship is reduced from 5 years to 3. There's a catch-22 for many though: those serving a tour of duty outside the country must pay their own way back stateside to take the test and the oath.

Abel

Jim Branaum

My Feedback: (3)

Abel,
I am not positive and it might have changed, but I think DOD pays their way home or to where they enlisted...

abel_pranger

Jim-
My info was current as of 2002, when some 47,500 non-citizens were serving in the military. It apparently was just changed late in that year by Pres. Bush. After seeing your reply. I found this item: http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/imm...tory_on_n.html
It seems they no longer have to return stateside to take the pledge, as had been the case previously.
Bush is taking a lot of bashing of late - he didn't get much notice he deserved for this good deed. Moves up a notch on my respect scale. Thanks for motivating me to take another look.

Abel

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

If the subject of this thread was to keep QQ from representing us, then shame on you. You must have brandished a whip in a previous life, in the cotton fields.

abel_pranger

If you could read with mediocre comprehension, you would know what the subject of the thread is and what my position on it is.
I have no problem whatever with Quique representing the US in FAI competition. No whip nor shame here.

Abel

STLPilot

My Feedback: (21)

American does not mean just to be "an American citizen" whch is a a noun. As an adjective it's a title given someone who has the will and desire to become one without being born here. There are people from all over the world living in the USA that want nothing else then to become a citizen of this great country and that means have a job, pay taxes, fight in our military and represent us in competition. If they live here legally and they want to fly for USA, then god bless them and let them fly as Americans, not American citizens.

I personally think it's compliment that a non citizen would want to represent us, then their country of origin, as it only shows how great our country really is in a time when most countries despise the USA. This also shows how bad this person wants to be an American and will wear our flag on his/her shirt. Removing this "freedom" from someone who wants to become an American and a representative of our country takes away everything that this country stands for.

When I get stuffed in the NYC subway some mornings I can see and feel how the backbone of our country is built by a joint venture of American citizens and non American citizens. Without these people that work hard to build our economy and our future, we would not be where we are today. The reason guys like QQ and hundreds of thousands of other future Americans base their companies right here in the USA because America is the country of dreams.

Taking away their dreams is taking us back in time when many Americans disliked people that were not Americans and used to show it much worst then a few typed words in a RC discussion forum. Some of you guys in this forum have "salted the wound" and shown the world exactly what they have hated us for, "Americans don't care about anyone except themselves". But not this American.

[b]LET THEM FLY![b]

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

ABEL, I meant what I said rhetorically, in general, about the thinking involved with the origin of this thread. If there was a generic reply button to click, then I wouldn't have picked on yours'.