Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
09-28-2006, 07:58 AM
#26
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
ORIGINAL: AA5BY
If I recall correctly... Futaba back in the '70-'80s certified their transmitters compliant one up or one down... giving a three channel option. Changing the crytal by the owner one up or one down did not void the compliance.
But, times seemed to have changed at least with my JR. Its manual does not offer such compliance, saying that no owner frequency changes are permitted, though a Ham ticket might provide the freedom to change frequency and adjust ones own transmitter... please don't stone me if I'm wrong, I said, "might".
If I recall correctly... Futaba back in the '70-'80s certified their transmitters compliant one up or one down... giving a three channel option. Changing the crytal by the owner one up or one down did not void the compliance.
But, times seemed to have changed at least with my JR. Its manual does not offer such compliance, saying that no owner frequency changes are permitted, though a Ham ticket might provide the freedom to change frequency and adjust ones own transmitter... please don't stone me if I'm wrong, I said, "might".
09-28-2006, 08:10 AM
#27
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
If anybody really wants to see something totally mind boggling look at this online document: [link]http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf#search=%22fcc%20frequency%20chart%22[/link] . This is the current United States Frequency chart. This shows exactly what the FCC has to do in managing the airwaves here in the US. I thought I would post this just so everybody has some idea just how much "stuff" is out there using our airwaves.
Ken
Ken
09-28-2006, 03:26 PM
#28
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RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
AFAIK: When a radio gets FCC certification, it must be provided with all the different available configurations and options that are going to be part of the certification.
e.g. if the radio is to be sold using standard RC frequencies and advertized as supporting a range, then the radio is provided with each crystal and/or module for testing.
The radio is then certified for each of the frequencies for the intended uses.
The cited paragraphs were originally meant to prevent people from modifying their radios and theyby causing interference problems.
The FCC doesn't care if you change your crystals if they have tested the combinations you are using.
Find one case where they have objected to user changeable RC crystals...
All of this becomes rather moot with the synth modules anyway.
e.g. if the radio is to be sold using standard RC frequencies and advertized as supporting a range, then the radio is provided with each crystal and/or module for testing.
The radio is then certified for each of the frequencies for the intended uses.
The cited paragraphs were originally meant to prevent people from modifying their radios and theyby causing interference problems.
The FCC doesn't care if you change your crystals if they have tested the combinations you are using.
Find one case where they have objected to user changeable RC crystals...
All of this becomes rather moot with the synth modules anyway.
09-28-2006, 03:40 PM
#30
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
ORIGINAL: RCKen
If anybody really wants to see something totally mind boggling look at this online document: [link]http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf#search=%22fcc%20frequency%20chart%22[/link] . This is the current United States Frequency chart. This shows exactly what the FCC has to do in managing the airwaves here in the US. I thought I would post this just so everybody has some idea just how much "stuff" is out there using our airwaves.
Ken
If anybody really wants to see something totally mind boggling look at this online document: [link]http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf#search=%22fcc%20frequency%20chart%22[/link] . This is the current United States Frequency chart. This shows exactly what the FCC has to do in managing the airwaves here in the US. I thought I would post this just so everybody has some idea just how much "stuff" is out there using our airwaves.
Ken
09-28-2006, 03:41 PM
#31
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
Some people (no names mentioned) are just plain dense. IT IS ILLEGAL TO CHANGE CRYSTALS - PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD - UNLESS YOU HAVE THE CAPABILITIES TO RECERTIFY THEM PERIOD PERIOD. SHEESH. Anybody got a sledge hammer to drive this home?? [:@]
09-28-2006, 03:52 PM
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RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
Yes some ARE plain dense.
Find ONE case where the FCC has gone after anyone about this the intent is NOT as you are stating.
Call them up and ask if you want as well and ask.
I have friends there whom I've talked to about R/C stuff, a few are also enthusiasts as well, that I know.
Someone please hand me the hammer now.
Find ONE case where the FCC has gone after anyone about this the intent is NOT as you are stating.
Call them up and ask if you want as well and ask.
I have friends there whom I've talked to about R/C stuff, a few are also enthusiasts as well, that I know.
Someone please hand me the hammer now.
09-28-2006, 03:57 PM
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RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey
Once you pull out the crystal and change it you have voided the type acceptance or what you call "fcc certified"
Once you pull out the crystal and change it you have voided the type acceptance or what you call "fcc certified"
You can ask that the equipment be certified with different end user configurations, even user installable ones.
Once each component is part of the certification "chain", end users are permitted to swap the certified modules w/o loosing compliance.
This is how PC certification use to work as well.
09-28-2006, 04:03 PM
#35
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
ORIGINAL: opjose
Once each component is part of the certification "chain", end users are permitted to swap the certified modules w/o loosing compliance.
Once each component is part of the certification "chain", end users are permitted to swap the certified modules w/o loosing compliance.
Ken
09-28-2006, 04:11 PM
#36
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
To contact the FCC and tell them that you are changing your own crystals is about as smart as pulling over a cop and telling him you are driving drunk. IO have no intention of contacting the FCC and telling them that I know my fellow pilots are intentionally breaking the rules. The last thing we need is more oversight.
09-28-2006, 04:32 PM
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RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
As I said, I've talked to them about this kind of stuff.
Companies such as Futaba and JR are SUPPOSED to certify their equipment for sale in the U.S. least they loose their licenses, etc.
When they do so the crystal "modules" are also certified along with the radios.
The crystals ARE sold as user replaceable modules, so it IS certified as part of the process. (This use of symantics is intentional.)
Or rather the radio is certified with the different user installable crystals, that are in turn modules sold by the manufacturers.
What the FCC DOES NOT want, is for you to go in and modify your own radio or radio crystals or install non certified hardware into your setup.
As long as you are merely inserting the crystals provided by the manufacturers you are in compliance as the radio is certified with this in mind.
That is why you will NOT find any cases of complaint or prosecution on the part of the FCC which is the final arbitrator.
You WILL find many cases of them going after people who have performed their own "custom" modifications to the sets, not limited to, but including things such as increasing power, changing bands, other frequencies, etc.
But this business about you violating anything because you change a crystal is wrong.... the crystal is a user installable "module" as far as they are concerned.
JR, Futaba, Airtronics would be unable to stay in business otherwise.
Companies such as Futaba and JR are SUPPOSED to certify their equipment for sale in the U.S. least they loose their licenses, etc.
When they do so the crystal "modules" are also certified along with the radios.
The crystals ARE sold as user replaceable modules, so it IS certified as part of the process. (This use of symantics is intentional.)
Or rather the radio is certified with the different user installable crystals, that are in turn modules sold by the manufacturers.
What the FCC DOES NOT want, is for you to go in and modify your own radio or radio crystals or install non certified hardware into your setup.
As long as you are merely inserting the crystals provided by the manufacturers you are in compliance as the radio is certified with this in mind.
That is why you will NOT find any cases of complaint or prosecution on the part of the FCC which is the final arbitrator.
You WILL find many cases of them going after people who have performed their own "custom" modifications to the sets, not limited to, but including things such as increasing power, changing bands, other frequencies, etc.
But this business about you violating anything because you change a crystal is wrong.... the crystal is a user installable "module" as far as they are concerned.
JR, Futaba, Airtronics would be unable to stay in business otherwise.
09-28-2006, 04:40 PM
#38
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
Transmitters are controlled by crystals, crystal modules or synthesizer modules. The FCC does not care if you swap either of the module type as long as it is with an approved module for that radio. They DO care if you change crystals.
09-28-2006, 04:56 PM
#39
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RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
In short, the user is not permitted to change the channel of their transmitter by simply changing the crystal. Longer explanation follows:
1) Transmitter crystals are NOT modules, and not certified as such. The FCC specifically states that crystals are not considered "frequency modules". A "module" is a complete pre-tuned unit that contains all of the output circuitry for the transmitter and includes a frequency crystal or frequency-synthesis circuitry.
2) The transmitter gets certified as operating in a specific frequency band. It is not tested on every channel. It is tested such that it can be proven that it will transmit within the authorized frequency band with the authorized bandwidth and power level.
3) The regulations specifically state that the user must not have access to the "frequency determining" component. That is the transmitter crystal. If you must break a glue joint, use tools, and so forth, to obtain access to the crystal, the manufacturer has complied with the FCC. The manufacturer works with the FCC on what is allowed so that compliance is assured.
4) If you are qualified to certify that a transmitter complies with its Equipment Authorization when you change the transmitter crystal, then it's OK for you to do so. Just changing a crystal does not assure you that the transmitter complies with its Equipment Authorization.
5) Unfortunately, many modelers read the FCC regulations and apply their own interpretations to them. Sorry, but if you talk to someone in the FCC who's knowledgeable about the Radio Control Service, they'll tell you that crystal swapping in a transmitter is not allowed under the regulations. YOUR interpretation doesn't count. It's what the FCC says.
6) Enforcement will not likely happen because an FCC official shows up at your flying field and inspects the transmitters. It will happen as a result of an outside complaint or an accident. If your transmitter is off channel, and it interferes with a commercial user, and a complaint is filed, then difficulties may result. If an accident with a serious injury happens, and the investigation shows that a transmitter with a swapped crystal was used, not only will there be possible legal difficulties, but almost all insurance companies will wash their hands of the whole mess. After all, you would have been using equipment that was not compliant with the pertinent regulations.
This crystal-swapping argument comes up all the time, but having shepherded several R/C transmitters through the FCC certification process over the years, and having had discussions with various FCC officials in the relevant branches, I can positively state that the FCC regards changing crystals in a transmitter by the end user as a violation of their regulations. Other people who have worked with the FCC in equipment certification will state the same thing, and have done so in other threads.
A final note: Crystals are not inserted into Futaba transmitters by the distributor. Futaba transmitters are imported into North America with their crystals already installed. The factory checks the output of every transmitter to make sure it complies with the regulations of each transmitter's destination. If Great Planes needs to send a transmitter out on a specific channel, but it's not in stock, then a transmitter on a different channel is sent to the service center to have the channel changed, the transmitter properly-tuned and checked, and the box re-labelled to reflect the new channel. Crystals are not just cavalierly stuck into transmitters.
[edit for typos]
1) Transmitter crystals are NOT modules, and not certified as such. The FCC specifically states that crystals are not considered "frequency modules". A "module" is a complete pre-tuned unit that contains all of the output circuitry for the transmitter and includes a frequency crystal or frequency-synthesis circuitry.
2) The transmitter gets certified as operating in a specific frequency band. It is not tested on every channel. It is tested such that it can be proven that it will transmit within the authorized frequency band with the authorized bandwidth and power level.
3) The regulations specifically state that the user must not have access to the "frequency determining" component. That is the transmitter crystal. If you must break a glue joint, use tools, and so forth, to obtain access to the crystal, the manufacturer has complied with the FCC. The manufacturer works with the FCC on what is allowed so that compliance is assured.
4) If you are qualified to certify that a transmitter complies with its Equipment Authorization when you change the transmitter crystal, then it's OK for you to do so. Just changing a crystal does not assure you that the transmitter complies with its Equipment Authorization.
5) Unfortunately, many modelers read the FCC regulations and apply their own interpretations to them. Sorry, but if you talk to someone in the FCC who's knowledgeable about the Radio Control Service, they'll tell you that crystal swapping in a transmitter is not allowed under the regulations. YOUR interpretation doesn't count. It's what the FCC says.
6) Enforcement will not likely happen because an FCC official shows up at your flying field and inspects the transmitters. It will happen as a result of an outside complaint or an accident. If your transmitter is off channel, and it interferes with a commercial user, and a complaint is filed, then difficulties may result. If an accident with a serious injury happens, and the investigation shows that a transmitter with a swapped crystal was used, not only will there be possible legal difficulties, but almost all insurance companies will wash their hands of the whole mess. After all, you would have been using equipment that was not compliant with the pertinent regulations.
This crystal-swapping argument comes up all the time, but having shepherded several R/C transmitters through the FCC certification process over the years, and having had discussions with various FCC officials in the relevant branches, I can positively state that the FCC regards changing crystals in a transmitter by the end user as a violation of their regulations. Other people who have worked with the FCC in equipment certification will state the same thing, and have done so in other threads.
A final note: Crystals are not inserted into Futaba transmitters by the distributor. Futaba transmitters are imported into North America with their crystals already installed. The factory checks the output of every transmitter to make sure it complies with the regulations of each transmitter's destination. If Great Planes needs to send a transmitter out on a specific channel, but it's not in stock, then a transmitter on a different channel is sent to the service center to have the channel changed, the transmitter properly-tuned and checked, and the box re-labelled to reflect the new channel. Crystals are not just cavalierly stuck into transmitters.
[edit for typos]
09-28-2006, 05:02 PM
#40
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
Opjose,
This is copied DIRECTLY from Futaba's website
Copied from Futaba's website
Copied from Airtronics's website
Copied from JR's website
I couldn't find any info on Hitec's website, but that doesn't mean they don't support this also.
Any claims that these manufacturers don't abide by this law is pure fantasy. As seen on each company's website they do tell their customers to send the radio's in for having the crystals changed to change the frequency. Plain and simple here. As Bruce paraphrased above, IT'S ILLEGAL TO CHANGE THE CRYSTALS IN YOUR RADIO.
Ken
This is copied DIRECTLY from Futaba's website
Copied from Futaba's website
How do I change the frequency of my transmitter?
For a unit with crystals: We CANNOT recommend changing crystals to a different frequency. Changing the crystal on your transmitter is illegal unless you have the proper license. The FCC has established guidelines for the modeler's safety and for the safety of spectators. For safety and FCC reasons we must request that both TX and RX be sent to the service center to ensure proper crystal change and retuning to the new frequency. Crystal based radios cannot be converted to another band without parts replacement, and may not be able to be converted at all. Certain radios can be converted, for example, from 72 to 75MHz. Please contact the service center for any other conversions.
For a unit with crystals: We CANNOT recommend changing crystals to a different frequency. Changing the crystal on your transmitter is illegal unless you have the proper license. The FCC has established guidelines for the modeler's safety and for the safety of spectators. For safety and FCC reasons we must request that both TX and RX be sent to the service center to ensure proper crystal change and retuning to the new frequency. Crystal based radios cannot be converted to another band without parts replacement, and may not be able to be converted at all. Certain radios can be converted, for example, from 72 to 75MHz. Please contact the service center for any other conversions.
Q. Can I change channels on my transmitter and receiver without re-tuning?
A. Radios equipped with frequency modules can be changed to another channel by replacing the
tuned module with another tuned module. Radios not equipped with frequency modules can not legally be changed
without re-tuning the radio to the specific channel. Not only is it against FCC regulations but more important it may
shorten your range and/or cause interference with someone else's radio that could therefore cause personal injury.
Receivers are not a problem to change the frequency as long as you do a proper range check after doing so.
Q. Are transmitter and receiver crystals available individually?
A. Yes, if they can not be found at your local retailer call Airtronics direct. Note: Changing channel
numbers on your transmitter will require re-tuning.
A. Radios equipped with frequency modules can be changed to another channel by replacing the
tuned module with another tuned module. Radios not equipped with frequency modules can not legally be changed
without re-tuning the radio to the specific channel. Not only is it against FCC regulations but more important it may
shorten your range and/or cause interference with someone else's radio that could therefore cause personal injury.
Receivers are not a problem to change the frequency as long as you do a proper range check after doing so.
Q. Are transmitter and receiver crystals available individually?
A. Yes, if they can not be found at your local retailer call Airtronics direct. Note: Changing channel
numbers on your transmitter will require re-tuning.
Can I change the crystal on my transmitter or module?
No, it must be returned to the authorized JR Service Center per FCC regulations.
No, it must be returned to the authorized JR Service Center per FCC regulations.
Any claims that these manufacturers don't abide by this law is pure fantasy. As seen on each company's website they do tell their customers to send the radio's in for having the crystals changed to change the frequency. Plain and simple here. As Bruce paraphrased above, IT'S ILLEGAL TO CHANGE THE CRYSTALS IN YOUR RADIO.
Ken
09-28-2006, 05:08 PM
#41
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
ORIGINAL: opjose
JR, Futaba, Airtronics would be unable to stay in business otherwise.
JR, Futaba, Airtronics would be unable to stay in business otherwise.
09-28-2006, 05:38 PM
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RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
ORIGINAL: piper_chuck
That's a pretty sad commentary on your fellow modelers.[:@]
ORIGINAL: skiman762
Now that all the legal stuff is out on the open
anyone want to guess how many TX have had the crystals changed ?
I'll guess 50% or better
Now that all the legal stuff is out on the open
anyone want to guess how many TX have had the crystals changed ?
I'll guess 50% or better
but when we see them for sale all over the place and we hear of hobby shops telling people it's ok, you can only wonder.
As with my JR the crystals right there would the average person even think their doing anything wrong I mean it doesn't even require tools
I just looked up crystals online and under requirments it says
REQUIRES: Inserting crystals into transmitter and receiver
I did just look at the manual for my 662 and on the last page in tiny need your glasses print it does say it ''may result in a violation of FCC rules''
So have it breifed at your next club meeting and ask your LHS if the say it's ok correct them and we help keep our hobby of trouble
09-28-2006, 05:59 PM
#43
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RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
Some statements and regulations are sometimes difficult to read and indeed understand.
I think sometimes you need a special degree.
In this current thread I have read that you can't change a TX crystal even if you are simply replacing a bad crystal with a new one and NOT changing the channel.
If you read the second question from the Airtronics quote in RCKens post above it would lead you to believe you can replace a crystal if you are not changing channels.
I think sometimes you need a special degree.
In this current thread I have read that you can't change a TX crystal even if you are simply replacing a bad crystal with a new one and NOT changing the channel.
If you read the second question from the Airtronics quote in RCKens post above it would lead you to believe you can replace a crystal if you are not changing channels.
09-28-2006, 06:04 PM
#44
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
They sell crystals because there's authorized repair centers, and individuals with the proper equipment to do it right, your car will do over 65 mph, you may do 90 all the time and not get caught, but that doesn't mean its legal to do so.
09-28-2006, 06:05 PM
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RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
Bax.
"3) The regulations specifically state that the user must not have access to the "frequency determining" component. That is the transmitter crystal. If you must break a glue joint, use tools, and so forth, to obtain access to the crystal, the manufacturer has complied with the FCC. The manufacturer works with the FCC on what is allowed so that compliance is assured. "
I have a half dozen radios from differing manufacturers that have their user replaceable crystal "modules" hanging off the back of the set such as the JR radios.
"No glue joint or anything else must be broken to get to them. "
This is exactly what caused all of the discussion with people on this (that and some local interference ...)
"3) The regulations specifically state that the user must not have access to the "frequency determining" component. That is the transmitter crystal. If you must break a glue joint, use tools, and so forth, to obtain access to the crystal, the manufacturer has complied with the FCC. The manufacturer works with the FCC on what is allowed so that compliance is assured. "
I have a half dozen radios from differing manufacturers that have their user replaceable crystal "modules" hanging off the back of the set such as the JR radios.
"No glue joint or anything else must be broken to get to them. "
This is exactly what caused all of the discussion with people on this (that and some local interference ...)
09-28-2006, 06:07 PM
#46
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RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
ORIGINAL: bruce88123
They wouldn't be able to stay in business if they violated Federal Regulations every day.
ORIGINAL: opjose
JR, Futaba, Airtronics would be unable to stay in business otherwise.
JR, Futaba, Airtronics would be unable to stay in business otherwise.
Yes that is what you would think.
09-28-2006, 08:42 PM
#47
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RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
OK, I am more than convinced by the radio manufacturers stated FAQ not to change crystals to another frequency. What about JR radios, where to adjust the tension on the sticks, you need to remove the back (and therefore the crystal). Is sticking the same crystal back in enough to ensure you have not modified anything. Seems like it - but makes me a little nervous.
09-29-2006, 07:17 AM
#48
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
ORIGINAL: opjose
Bax.
"3) The regulations specifically state that the user must not have access to the "frequency determining" component. That is the transmitter crystal. If you must break a glue joint, use tools, and so forth, to obtain access to the crystal, the manufacturer has complied with the FCC. The manufacturer works with the FCC on what is allowed so that compliance is assured. "
I have a half dozen radios from differing manufacturers that have their user replaceable crystal "modules" hanging off the back of the set such as the JR radios.
"No glue joint or anything else must be broken to get to them. "
This is exactly what caused all of the discussion with people on this (that and some local interference ...)
Bax.
"3) The regulations specifically state that the user must not have access to the "frequency determining" component. That is the transmitter crystal. If you must break a glue joint, use tools, and so forth, to obtain access to the crystal, the manufacturer has complied with the FCC. The manufacturer works with the FCC on what is allowed so that compliance is assured. "
I have a half dozen radios from differing manufacturers that have their user replaceable crystal "modules" hanging off the back of the set such as the JR radios.
"No glue joint or anything else must be broken to get to them. "
This is exactly what caused all of the discussion with people on this (that and some local interference ...)
09-29-2006, 07:30 AM
#49
RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
ORIGINAL: jlimey
OK, I am more than convinced by the radio manufacturers stated FAQ not to change crystals to another frequency. What about JR radios, where to adjust the tension on the sticks, you need to remove the back (and therefore the crystal). Is sticking the same crystal back in enough to ensure you have not modified anything. Seems like it - but makes me a little nervous.
OK, I am more than convinced by the radio manufacturers stated FAQ not to change crystals to another frequency. What about JR radios, where to adjust the tension on the sticks, you need to remove the back (and therefore the crystal). Is sticking the same crystal back in enough to ensure you have not modified anything. Seems like it - but makes me a little nervous.
Let's try to understand what a crystal is. It's a "rock". OK, a fancy "rock". It's cut to a specific size and shape and then it is stimulated to vibrate (oscillate) at it base frequency. It's extremely hard to cut identical "rocks". So there are tiny deviation between any two "rocks" or crystals. This is part of what the tuning circuits have to adjust for. They compensate for the differences in the cuts and force the correct frequencies to be generated. You could buy two "identical" crystals off the production line made the same day by the same guy/machine and they will probably NOT oscillate at EXACTLY the same frequency but close.
It's easier, but not cheaper yet, to do this with a synthesizer.
09-29-2006, 11:05 AM
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RE: Changing TX channels, Myth or Fact?
I can't believe how far this has gone. Same old argument about the same old question. Bruce had it right, the very simple fact of the matter is, CHANGING CRYSTALS IN YOUR TRANSMITTER IS ILLEGAL!!!!. JUST DON'T DO IT!!! At least not without getting the transmitter re-certified. There is a reason that it is illegal. I know it upsets some, but we can't pick and choose which laws we will comply with and which ones we won't. 'Nuff said.
Regards,
doubledee
Regards,
doubledee