Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Just something I thought of the other day. One of my moments of clarity I occationally get before old timers kicks in again.

We've talked/ argued/ discussed, whatever you wish to call it, about the electric crowd and the AMA/ Clubs, and how to the electric side, it is viewed as being snubbed, and to the AMA/Clubs we tended to be a nusiance with our toys, not standard radios, and disruption of frequencies.

Just a generalizing above, not trying to start anything with it.

Anyhow, maybe some of us have forgotten our own beginnings. Did we all start out with $1000.00+ airplanes and 14 channel tx's? I kinda doubt it.

No, there were the folks before that took the current members under their wing and taught them how it's done, not banish them because they were new and what they did might have been different from the norm.

Maybe we all need to remember we were all"newbies" at one time.

JUGFLIER

Good post. We can get down on AMA but it is still the local club that has much to do with the direction of our hobby.

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

Agreed great post.

Live Wire

G G
Some of use are still at the beginning and love it But what way can we go other than UP
Or DOWN

Stickbuilder

Did we start with $1000.00 giant planes with 14 channel radios? No we did not. We started with $40.00 per week jobs and had to pay $250.00 for a two tube super regen radio, and pay $4.95 for a kit, and about another $30.00 or so for the accessories (wheels, tanks dope, covering material, collars and keepers etc.) add to that another $25.00 or so for an engine. Then you bought extra batteries so you could fly (maybe once). The price has risen, but is still a bargain at today's wages.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

SPLIT S

That's the point I was trying to make in the thread " Why isn't the AMA growing." I try to think of it like a pyramid with the AMA sitting at the top with it's weight supported by all the clubs and individuals throughout the nation. The strength in our hobby comes from the people that make the base - it seems that from what I read that too much is attributed to the top; ie. the state of our hobby and the like. We certainly need a strong leader ( the top ) but I think that GG is referring to the health of the base. I've only ever belonged to one club, and to my knowledge there hasn't been the snubbing that I sometimes read about here on the forum. We have everything from foamies to helicopters to sport and warbirds. GG's point as I take it isn't so much the monetary end of things but going that extra mile to include everyone. I think Jugflier could have gone a bit further and said that the " local club has MOST to do with the direction of our hobby." I'm certainly not taking anything away from the importance of the AMA but maybe we should all take a look at what we can do locally to improve the hobby. Like the adage says " Watch the nickels and dimes, the dollars will take care of themselves."

Regards,
Dan

JUGFLIER

Splits,
Agreed, but driving this hobby even more than the local clubs is technology and marketing. Example: Parkflyers, little electric planes with whizzzbang radios that can now be flown practically anywhere without interference. These people are usually driven off from many AMA fields. ( I've seen it.) They won't spend $58.00 bucks for AMA and then $75.00 bucks for club dues. That is why i say clubs have much to control the future but there are things clubs can't control.

SPLIT S

But maybe if they were allowed to stick around a little bit, have someone go "how would you like to try the real thing for a moment?", then maybe they'd be asking "Where can I get a kit?" Sounds like club control to me. The people that are driving them off the field are driving the nails in their own coffin.[&o]

Dan

Jimmy Skids

My Feedback: (2)

Glacier Girl,

Good post. I for one don’t think it’s really the clubs snubbing the electrics as much as the cost associated with starting off new in R/C. I’ve only been flying for 9 years now. When I started the cost of a trainer and equipment was much greater than the same equipment would run me now. However, if I were to go out and purchase an electric RTF the cost would be a lot less. I would look at the cost to join AMA and a local field and compared to the cost of my RTF airplane the cost would be outrageous. So I would probably end up at a park or school ground, crash the RTF and move on to another hobby.

Now go back in time 9 years. Electrics were toys; glow/gas planes were expensive toys that were a serious investment of my hard earned income. Since I had invested nearly $400 in an ARF, radio, engine, and field equipment, what was another $150 for AMA and club dues to have an instructor help me learn to fly and protect my main investment the plane, engine, and radio?

Would I be flying today if the electrics were around 9 years ago? I don’t really know, what I do know is that I have helped a couple electric guys move from electric to glow to do some flight training, and have done trim flights on their electrics as well. The two pilots that I have mentored have soloed and one is still in the hobby today. The other left the hobby as a lot of new pilots do.

A bigger effect on the growth of the hobby in my opinion is that the current US economy has slowed and people more than ever are being more prudent with their spending.

You hit the nail on the head with the statement that we were all newbie’s at one time. For a club and the AMA to grow we definitely need to be open to taking people under our wings and working with them to learn to fly.

Jimmy Skids

abel_pranger

Sorry, Dan -

Do you have any idea how that sounds to a 'leccy flyer?

Your intentions are good, approach needs some tuning.

Abel

Rv7garage

My Feedback: (10)

Ha! How about it, Abel. I'm a diehard glow flyer, but I do have one electric, and it's tough to see glow as the "real thing" when electrics can usually exceed the performance of a similar sized glow. (I just like the 4-stroke noise and smell, for some reason )

Split's heart is in the right place, though [8D]

It's very nice to hear some positive, constructive discussion regarding this topic, thanks guys.

SPLIT S

Poor choice of words on my part. No disrespect intened to the electrics out there. The comparison I meant was from park flyer to something a little more, well you know, MORE. I'm digging myself a bigger hole here so I'll leave it at that.

Dan

BTW, I didn't mention the word "glow."

Rv7garage

My Feedback: (10)

Just back away, dude..... [sm=lol.gif]

JUGFLIER

Dan,

You are right. Many will want something bigger than a 17" tiger moth. As clubs we need to be building into this group.

abel_pranger

Dan-

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense you want to sell the park flyer on the club environment, rather than the type of model he flies. There is plenty of MORE to to be had from that, at least in some/many clubs.
I may be overly sensitive on the subject of attitudes of many denizens of traditional clubs towards park flyers, often extended to include any modeler that chooses electric power, as being entry-level modelers that will either move up to IC power or be regarded as dilettantes rather than 'serious' modelers, along with the expectation they (we) will soon drop out of the hobby. I have flown IC power for several decades, and 'graduated' to E-power a couple of years ago. Like the models, 'graduates' come in all shapes and sizes, and I know of a few in this forum, many more percentage-wise at club sites I frequent.
I'll be flying with the the "over-the-hill-gang" tomorrow, and out of nostalgia I'll take the Sig Kadet LT-40 I built as a trainer for my kids about 15 years ago. Powered by an OS .52, it has been remarkably resilient despite the best efforts of the kids and dozens of other newbies to test its limits - still has the original Bolly 11.5X7 prop on it. Still a place for the ol' slimers, but by and large I've moved on. Kids have too; as young adults with new careers, they have precious little time for enjoying model flying, so club and AMA membership costs aren't reasonable value-wise right now. They fly park flyer models when they have the time, at venues of opportunity. Sometimes when we have the opportunity to fly together, it is in similar venues. Chartered club sites are not accommodating to those for whom the opportunity to fly a model airplane is a rare treat. I just ask that you keep that in mind while trying to coax park flyers into your club. Park flyers are no less model airplane enthusiasts than the denizens of your club. By the numbers, they are probably already a majority of model aviation enthusiasts and are growing, and as such they are the future of model aviation whether it conforms to the traditional club mold or not.
Your attitude seems mellow, and I think you'll understand where I'm coming from. Encourage park flyers to try out flying in your traditional club environment, sure. If you get an invite to try out flying their familiar venue, don't miss the opportunity.
BTW, I've dug deep enough holes with the spade point of my musings to look skyward and see stars during an average midday. Welcome to MY club.

Abel

Stickbuilder

GG,

I gave your post a lot of thought last evening, and you are correct. There used to be a lot of guys who were willing to take a newbie under their wing and bring them along. I have witnessed the offer being made very recently, and have also witnessed the reaction from the smart mouthed punk newbie, who thinks that since he posts on RCU, and owns a couple of RTF planes, that he knows more about the hobby than the guy who offered the assistance. STRIKE ONE.

I have seen offers made to help repair a crashed (very repairable) ARF, and the answer was that Naah, I'll just go buy another one. STRIKE TWO.

I have heard the same guys tell the older flyers who were trying to help, "Naah, I've been flying on the simulator at the hobby store, so I don't need anybody to help me with a Buddy Box." STRIKE THREE.

We do remember that we were newbies once. That's why we still make the offers to help someone learn this hobby. We offer to teach them to build (Cold Stare). We offer to teach them to fly correctly (Colder Stare). Perhaps an attitude adjustment is in order first.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

ps...By flying correctly, I mean how to take off, fly the current approach pattern and land safely.

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Stickbuilder, You're right no matter what group you have there will ALWAYS be that one.
No matter what you try it won't suit them. Those are the ones that only hitting themselves on the thumb with a hammer is the only way they will come to understand that if you are not careful with said hammer, it could hurt you.

Back to my original post. What I was trying to get at, and in no way pointing fingers at any group, was WE ALL NEED to remember our own days in the beginning. Especially before condemming someone else's type of bird/equipment. etc.

Like Stickbuilder himself said earlier, what it took at his beginning to get into this was all he could afford. To a point so today the new generation of fliers is in the same boat, it's what they can afford, or what their parents can. Where I see trouble is when just because that's all they can afford we can tend to look down on them.

Heck I'll use myself as an example. I've gone like I said from the old Cox C/L, to cheapie RTF's, to big dollar birds. Now then if I'm at the local soccer field(ok I'm still an outlaw flyer sometimes, though I am AMA #874936) If somebody shows up with some POS bird and can't get it to fly, I don't point and laugh at he/she, and I don't make some nasty remarks about them. I'm the first one over there to try and help them out.

True story. Monday I stopped at the local rental yard to order a bobcat and rockhound to finish up some work at the flying field I'm building. When I told the salesman what I was doing, he tells me about this RTF he bought his son and how it was such a dissapointment, and now the pack won't charge off the transmitter.
Here's where I remember my beginnings and pay it forward. I tell him to bring it in and I'll take a look at it, no big deal. But I go further. Tues. I stop in and bring with me a "toy", an Aero Hogs RTF that one of my club mates has modified heavily. I hand it to him with the Tx, and say have your son give this a whirl, if he likes it, give me his and I'll have the same done to his. This guy who I didn't know from Adam, just couldn't stop saying Holy Sh it!
I showed him how to fly it right in his showroom. Hook, line, and sinker, I just added the two newest members to the flying hobby.
A little time and some compassion went a long way to someone who might have given up on our hobby.

If all of us will take that extra step think how much better our hobby will be.

Oh and the kid's bird? It will be sitting in the bobcat on Friday at my field, I'll use the cat for three days, something about not having time to pick it up right away on a one day rental.
And my club mate has offered to work his magic on the kids bird at no charge, packs and all.

Our little club the Badius Boys, has our own creed, "Pay it Forward", we all remember our beginnings, and we pay it forward to the newbies when we can.

It ain't a perfect world, but anything to make it better for someone else pays back in spades.

JUGFLIER

True class.

SPLIT S

Perfectly said. My replies weren't about comparisions between someone's equipment but rather towards the kid ( or adult ) with the Sky Fly that he just can't keep in the air - or can - but just needs to be taken into the group by just one person willing to lend a helping hand. I belive that's how our hobby can grow.

Abel, you're right, I do try to take a mellow stance towards all this. There is plenty in my day running the paint store here in PA to boil my blood. I try to look at the hobby as just that - a hobby. Keep it fun, keep it simple and have a good time.

Dan

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

I'd like to approach this from a slightly different point of view.

Glacier Girl, your OP is, imo, right on. So please don't take this as an attack on your views, but rather as a different look at "our beginnings".

Forget, for a moment, what models, radios, airplanes, wages, or costs we started with. Those will vary quite a bit from person to person. What we all have in common, however, is a more simple "beginning"...our childhood.

As a parent, RC flyer, and scale student pilot, and as the son of an aeronautical engineer, it is my belief that there exists almost NOTHING...no pursuit, hobby, passion, or interest...that offers MORE benefit to a child than aviation.

Now...let's not get into a big "oh, but this is good for kids too!" thing here...by no means am i saying other pursuits, such as athletics, or various academic pursuits, or whatever, are BAD...far from it. I simply contend that nothing offers MORE benefit than an interest in aviation.

Think about it for a minute...from an academic standpoint, consider the mathematical disciplines involved : Basic math, algebra, calculus, and geometry all play fundamental roles in how airplanes do what they do. And the sciences...physics, of course....but what about meteorology? Bilogy, as we consider the properties of various woods. Geology as we consider the properties of metals. Chemistry, as we consider the composition of fuels....even ecology, as we consider the impact our aircraft and their fuels might have on the environment or flora and fauna at our flying field.

Now let's talk about trade skills...the skills we all pick up, to one degree or another, in the shop, or at the LHS, learning how to better mount, construct, build, cut, sand, polish, or fit. Think, for just a minute, about the HUNDREDS of tools, construction and finishing methods, adhesives, and utensils we're exposed to simply assembling an ARF...much less if we tackle a building project.

What about the benefits of being outdoors, away from the TV, and the video games? What about the socialization a club, or group of fellow hobbyists provides? Heck, we could even stretch a bit here and say that SOME of us get a great deal of exercise looking for lost planes in the woods.

Finally, consider the life lessons aviation teaches. The FAA's GOLDEN RULE is "Pilot in Command"...the PIC is responsible for EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING that happens to that airplane. Talk about learning some personal responsibility! And don't forget the safety, the organization, the patience, the craftsmanship, the wisdom of 'doing it right the first time", the value of shared company and resources....the list goes on.

Now...I dare say there's not a SINGLE hobbyist on this whole SITE that will say "oh, no, i don't want my kids learning that!" LOOK at that list....those are traits, skills, and values that, I believe, every one of us holds near and dear.

And NONE of us had them when we "began"...began in life, that is.

Sure...parents and teachers can teach any or all of those things...but they require opportunity to do so.

Aviation IS that opportunity.

THAT, imo, is what's worth paying back.

Jimmy Skids

My Feedback: (2)

Ditto, you guys have hit it on the head.

Thank you,
Jimmy Skids

kid chuckles

Well the club i joined all knew that i was new to the sport and had my very first glow engine plane a top winged trainer there to learn. Not one offered any assistance, advice, or anything of the sort. I bought my own buddy box in hopes that somone would actually help me out still not any of them have offered. Do you think I would be posting if i had not ask some of them everyone of them has said they did not want to be the one that crashed my plane. So who do you get when no one seems to think they are good enough to help?

Jim Thomerson

Something to be said for joing a group who are all much more expert than you are, rather than a group of your peers.[8D]

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Have we forgotten our beginnings?

Not everyone has forgotten. Of course, I have also seen very selfish and arrogant displays more than once but I have also been a witness to some extreme giving also.

I remember when a club member gave a complete trainer RTF to a boy and dad that came out to the field with a Sky Scooter (small electric RTF) they had tried to fly without success on their own. They now have graduated from the "toy" to building and acquired level of flying proficiency few others ever achieve. Actually the Dad went on to become the current club president of one of the clubs I belong to. Giving can be quite contagious and we have benefited by one of the greatest gifts one can give this hobby... one's time and commitment to promote our hobby. Today it is common for one guy to give another a servo or an engine or whatever so we can just enjoy the hobby together.

I really do feel sorry for those that always seem to have little or nothing for others and can seem only to find divisive terms, actions or words that perpetuate their strategy to render the common denominator to be no greater than they are. A real shame but a reality.

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

Common denominator, hum. A club has a field on public property for a number of years, collect nominal dues for field improvements etc.. Another club is formed by one or more individuals that don't like how the first club is being run and applies and gets approval to use the same facility - zero dues.